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Do The Battletech Variant Names Follow Any System?


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#41 Karl Streiger

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 11:28 AM

Planet Names are not a pun.
Although i really want to know how they were created. the story behind Senftenberg, Herzberg and Finsterwalde makes me really curious

(Want to know where? Take a satelite image of germany and look for the desert )


#42 Fyrwulf

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 06:48 PM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 05 June 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

Planet Names are not a pun.


A German is lecturing a native speaker on the use of his own language? That's a bit presumptuous, no?

#43 Karl Streiger

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 10:45 PM

View PostFyrwulf, on 05 June 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:


A German is lecturing a native speaker on the use of his own language? That's a bit presumptuous, no?

I think I understand what a pun is - also know about the Mesozoic.
But I'm pretty sure the planet name existed before somebody thought "Hey we need a planet with Dinosaurs lets create one"

More the other way around.
Hey we want to add some "alien" animals - lets find a home and name.
What about Dinosaurs? Everybody who love big stomping robots love Dinosaurs, (lucky for them there was no Transformer 4 then)
Ok were to place them?
Tharkad? No - ehm hey we have that name "Mesozoa" - the settlers clearly named it because there are Dinosaurs correct?

So not the planet name is the pun - but to place Dinosaurs there - understandable?

Same with the designation of Mechs. I'm betting a month load of chocolate (my measurement) that the first Mech Variant designations were choosen because of the rule of cool and the sound of spelling not because the "creater" did spend hours in creating the lore behind that designation

#44 Metus regem

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 06:02 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 05 June 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

What about Dinosaurs? Everybody who love big stomping robots love Dinosaurs, (lucky for them there was no Transformer 4 then)




I still say the best version of Grimlock to-date is the current Robots in Disguise version of him... he's big, funny and not very bright.



Quote

Strongarm: You can't let some criminal ride with you!
Grimlock: I'm not a criminal!... At least I don't think I am.


Posted Image



He actually goes on a nice character arc where he goes about trying to learn patience, as well as trying to learn how to be smarter. Got to say, he is the best character in Robots in Disguise (current series).

#45 Fyrwulf

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 06:37 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 05 June 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

I think I understand what a pun is - also know about the Mesozoic.
But I'm pretty sure the planet name existed before somebody thought "Hey we need a planet with Dinosaurs lets create one"


A pun is simply playing with a word to make a joke. There is simply no reason to name a planet after an epoch where dinosaurs existed unless there are dinosaurs, or close analogues, on the planet itself. The Battletech developers make questionable decisions frequently, but usually when it comes to naming planets they have a solid reason for doing so. There is even a mini-sourcebook series revolving around individual planets called Touring The Stars.

Also, Caph and Hunter's Paradise have been dinosaur planets for a long, long time. Mesozoa is actually the third of three.

#46 Nebfer

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 11:20 AM

View PostJames The Fox Dixon, on 28 May 2017 - 04:56 AM, said:


Great info except MC isn't canon and is excluded from being counted for lore purposes.

Actually it is to an extent, the operation did take place and is referenced in the novels, as is the games user interface.
The novel Imminent Crisis talks about it a bit.

View PostMetus regem, on 28 May 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

Like the 55t Centurions....

And the 70 ton Jagermech

#47 AncientRaig

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 11:44 PM

View PostMetus regem, on 28 May 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

Like the 55t Centurions....

55 ton Centurions actually existed. If I remember correctly, it's called the CN10-B Centurion.

#48 Metus regem

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 04:25 AM

View PostSidefire, on 20 June 2017 - 11:44 PM, said:

55 ton Centurions actually existed. If I remember correctly, it's called the CN10-B Centurion.


Huh, you are right.... Looking it over, it seems a down grade from the CN9-D though.... 220 standard with CASE and a rear facing MPL as the only gains for going up to 55t.... Personally I'd stick with the 9-D over the 10-B, that 300 makes the 9-D a real force to be reckoned with....

#49 Koniving

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 10:49 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 26 May 2017 - 01:00 AM, said:

So here's a question for the Battle Tech Lore experts.

I like the variant names of mechs like Hbk-4G



So, I discovered the meaning behind G in 4G and all "G" variants.
....It's disappointing in how obvious it is.

All "G" variants are considered "Inner Sphere General Use." In other words, no specific faction, anyone can have them. By using this name it is almost meta in the sense that one could see it as breaking the 4th wall. But this is exactly what it means, "General Availability." Specifically it actually means "Generic" or "Generic Purchase." Not purpose, that'd make a tad more sense, but generic purchase.



Thus HBK-4G actually stands for:
Hunchback 4th generation Generic availability for purchase.

As mentioned before, all other 4th gen Hunchbacks are actually 4Gs that have been modified either personally (no variant designations) or using commonly appealing refit kits, such as the
  • HBK 4-Periphery general (HBK-4P), easy to repair (provided the tech is available) lasers are very low cost, reasonable maintenance and have minimal moving parts to grease/clean on less hospitable planets.
  • HBK-4SP is a Southern general Periphery model that favors the cheap availability of missiles in the area.
  • The HBK-4J is the only variant whose designation does not refer to a location. It stands for "Junior." Though introduced in 2854, the actual origin of the name is not known by mechwarriors in the 3025 era. It may be the only official common modification with a designation that references a nickname "Swayback Junior." The 4J is also the only non-urban 4th Gen Hunchback, which is made to body guard LRM fire support companies while also being able to participate in their bombardment. The bodyguard participant role is influenced by the Centurion, whose entire design revolves around the concept.
  • The HBK 4-Hanseatic League (HBK-4H, a modification due to the complete inavailability of the Tomodzuru Mount Type 20 autocannon and its extreme caliber, was made popular in the Hanseatic league if not originally made there, and its mercantile ruling class plays 'all sides' of the war, happily selling the refit kits they produce to the highest bidders.

    • (It is worth noting that there is a bit of lore conflict here at least when comparing dates on Sarna.net. There, the Hanseatic League doesn't 'officially' exist until 2891, however the 4H according to Sarna.net is first introduced in 2819. Though the league itself doesn't don the name and declare itself until 2891, it was still taking shape in the 'late 29th century'. It was formed from Lyran refugees that migrated to the deep periphery as early as the Star League Civil War (the Amaris Coup, 2766-2780), so it is likely the Hanseatic region was filling up. Coincidentally, all of Saran's referenced entries regarding the Hunchbacks fail to mention the year that the 4H is introduced, and the references to TRO 3026 for the 4H is bogus because both versions of TRO 3026 are vehicles only.)

    • The tomodzuru of the the 'Early' HBK-4Gs using the Komiyaba Type VII chassis skeleton is of the largest caliber in the Inner Sphere at 185mm, and no other weapon uses this caliber; the second closest being the Chemjet Gun at 180mm. Though ammunition for it is still produced in limited quantities, in the weapon is a finite relic that must be repaired or procured at high expense. Newer HBK 4Gs produced by Kali Yama Weapons Industries use a Crucis Type V skeleton, are physically somewhat unique in their appearance over 'classic' 4th gens and sport a Kali-Yama Big Bore AC/20 at 120mm, favoring 3 round bursts [and 12 shots total for 20 damage over 4 seconds] as opposed to the Tomdozuru's single shot/1 second 4 shot total for 20 damage. While a minor difference in the macro 10 second time slices and in 4 turn 2.5 second time slices, this becomes a big difference in micro 1.25 second 8 turn time slices. The KY Big Bore spreads 3 instances of 1 2/3rds damage up to 3 locations, while the Tomodzuru focuses 5 damage in a single instance to a single location].

    • Of interesting note: The HBK 5H is also originally produced (or rather 'introduced') as a refit kit for the Kali-Yama Hunchback 5th generation General purchase availability model. It is nothing like the 4H as it instead uses 3 Rocket Launcher 20s at the cost of losing 0.5 tons of armor and a rapid firing small pulse laser in the head.
Edit: Spoilers within bullets do not work, so moved them out of bullets.
Spoiler

  • The 4Ns origins are not currently known to me and searching has yielded no results beyond the introduction in 2920 and discontinuation in 3019. The 4N uses an AC/5, 2 LRM 5s and a pair of medium lasers in the right torso. It maintains a 'drum' of ammunition carrying 1 ton for each LRMs and AC/5 ammo. The drum has a unique appearance compared to the traditional HBK 4 'ammo drums'. The exact difference of this drum is not described.
    • It is this model and the 4G Gauss Prototype custom variant that PGI based its "Grid Iron" on. Canonically the 4G Gauss Prototype users in the 3039 war had immense difficulty remaining standing when firing the Gauss Rifle, as even bracing themselves would sometimes prove insufficient to keep the recoil from causing them to fall over. This Gauss Prototype custom variant by the Draconis Combine is one of many elements leading to the production of the Hollander's unusual design.
  • Original introduced as "The Hunchback", the 1st gen didn't seem to have a designation. Star League eras have HBK-2, 3, and 4 with no letter designations, their loadouts aren't specifically known. It's assumed the Star League era 4th gen is identical to the 4G. The 2nd gen is supposedly what the Clan's Hunchback is based on. Since 90% of Battletech games are intended to be set during and post Succession Wars, there was never a need to detail them. It is assumed (by me) that like the original Mackie, the 1st gen Hunchback donned "Primitive armor" and likely had a high caliber AC/5 or AC/10.

    Edited by Koniving, 14 July 2017 - 03:39 PM.


    #50 Koniving

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    Posted 15 July 2017 - 09:35 AM

    Rather than editing again, I'm just going to do another post.

    One, it's unclear if the Hunchback 4G varies between Komiyaba Type VII and Type VIII skeletons or if it is just a typo. Probably typos between Revised and original 3025 versions and Sarna.net. Since more versions say Type VIII, I'll use Type VIII from now on.

    The Crucis Type V chassis 4th generation Hunchbacks are incompatible with the Komiyaba Type VIII chassis 4th gen Hunchbacks. This is done somewhat purposely to ensure sales of their Kali-yama's new production model. It features an entirely different communications system, targeting system, different medium lasers (Hellion V instead of Ichiba 2000) in fact the only thing that truly remains the same is the small laser (Diverse Optics Type 10), the engine and the brand/type of armor used (Starshield).

    Still, the difference in chassis, weapons and equipment allow the Crucis Type V chassis to go a sustained top speed of 64 kph while the Komiyaba Type VIII chassis goes 63.5at its sustained top speed. (Yet the cruising speed, which is the moving speed you want for maximum accuracy while moving, is 43.9 for the Komiyaba Type VIIIand only 43 for the Crucis Type V).

    The Komiyaba chassis' comms system is made by Sony (MST-15) and the Crucis chassis uses an Omicron 4002 networking channel. Komiyaba uses the Tactictron Tracer 300 (same company that makes the Cyclops' Tactictron 2000 Battle Computer that can hack satelites, produce 3D holographic images within the cockpit of the battlefields on the other side of the planet, and coordinate hundreds of units.) Meanwhile the Crucis uses the TRSS Eagle Eye. It is unclear how much difference there is, though TRO 3025 goes out of its way to show that Komiyaba Hunchbacks can brawl with their fists against Crusaders with ease and that the Tomodzuru AC/20 (the biggest barrel AC/20 the IS has ever had) can punch holes clean through mechs.

    TRO 3039 focuses instead on telling us about the Gauss Prototype Hunchback 4G which in fact has the new Crucis Type V chassis (and may or may not be related to why those Hunchbacks can't handle the big gun, considering that Gauss Rifles don't have as much barrel diameter or as much kick as the Tomodzuru. Crucis Type V is only meant to handle the Kali-Yama Big Bore a significantly smaller barrel burst fire AC/20.)

    A mistake I made earlier and didn't correct all instances after discovering it, there is no "general purchase" model for the 5th generation Hunchback. Meaning all 5th gens are both acquired from the Mariks through some means (Marik is known for selling their mechs to other factions during the Clan wars... but what about before?) and are 5Ms or 5Ns (which are still 5Ms) originally. Marik charges a premium, since Marik is 'technically' the middle man.

    The original Hunchback 5th generation is produced for Marik.
    Some interesting notes:
    Unlike the Crucis Type V 4th gen remakes, the 5th gen using the same skeleton is dialed back to the same 43.9 and 63.5 kph speeds of the original Komiyaba 4th gens according to TRO 3050 Upgrade.
    The 5th gens use the same comms system and targeting system as the 4th gen remakes.
    Inexplicably, the 3050 Upgrade stats the ammo loaded into the Left Torso drum is "Ammo (AC) 5: 1 ton." AC/5 ammo for the AC/20. This does somewhat fit, however, if you consider that the Kali-Yama Big Bore uses the same ammunition as the Marauder's GM Whirlwind/5 AC/5 (which is also a 3 round burst for 5 damage gun, completing its 3 round burst barely over a second, though it has a long reload time.)

    Since the 5M is based on the same Crucis Type 5 chassis, meaning that 4th gen Hunchbacks with the Crucis Type 5 chassis could be upgraded to Double Heatsinks, unlike the Komiyabas which are too smalland lack the internal space within them to do so. This may also explain why the Crucis Type 5 chassis Hunchbacks are depicted with smaller drums, they could be completely different drums or it could be the mech had a slight size increase. Or perhaps it is just the internal space that has increased, allowing part of the ammunition to fit inside. If the last bit is the case, the drum should be excluded from a 5M's art.

    Moving on to other neat stuff...
    As for how the Hans get ahold of the 5M to make the 5H?
    The Hanseatic League (located northwest of the Steiner territory), though consisting mostly of Lyran refugees from the Amaris Coup and beyond (so hundreds of years) deal with anyone willing to enter their territory. Officially they only make trade on three of their (was it 27 or 29? Kinda lazy at the moment) planets. That is officially. Comstar has nothing to do with them or their communications, leaving them completely self sufficient with a "Standing army" as any independent smaller faction within the Sphere (such as the Saint Ives Magistrate within Capellan Space), despite being in deep space. Not only do they sell things but they buy things -- such is how bartering works.

    (The Hans selling those refit kits is much to the dismay of the Kali-Yama Weapons Corp which wants to try to get all Hunchback users to use their Crucis Type V chassis 4th Gens, so long as the Hanseatic League is willing to produce refit kits for the Komiyaba Type VII chassis 4th gen Hunchbacks, the ancient classic will never die out so long as there is enough left of them to fix. If MWO's Tourmaline Desert is any indication, we're good to have them for a long time.)

    The 5N is a field modification of the 5M that is basically the Mariks fixing the very thing they complained about when Kali-yama produced it. As such, it is a Marik made refit kit.

    The 5P is stated as a spiritual upgrade to the 4P, it's actually a modified 5N which is in turn a modified 5M. Whether the name is just identical for simplicity's sake or if it is actually done by the Periphery modders, who knows? As we get into 'this' territory, we start coming across lore made by not so good companies that owned BT between FASA and Catalyst and as such the lore of the inbetween companies is...lackluster and halfbaked to be polite.

    Eventually we get into 6, 7...and yeah, I like stopping around 3060. Posted Image

    But yeah. Hunchbacks have a shitload of history. Though an upcoming "FW" example in Battletech for the Hypothetical thread was going to focus on a battle to retake Quentin, climaxing in facing an Atlas K for the first time, digging so deep into Hunchback lore makes me want to pull out a battle where the Crucis Type V could fight a Komiyaba Type VIII, as well as the fight where Gauss Prototype 4Gs are put to use 3 years before Gauss Rifles start to become common battlefield sights.

    Also... Some pictures for the Hunchback to Hollander (and Jackal)
    Spoiler

    Think it's pretty obvious both of these mechs derive some sort of influence from the idea of the Hunchback having a huge FLD gun on the right torso, given that the 5 damage/shot Tomodzuru AC/20 of age old was the biggest beast on the market for a time and PPCs were not practical... the Komiyaba Type VIII 4th gen Hunchback dominated the market for hefty firepower in a small package. After the Crucis Type V Hunchbacks went for a more DPS approach and the Dracs failed attempt to field their Gauss Rifles on them, the lacking of a big umph tiny package mech...has definitely inspired some developers to make something more...uh, satisfying.

    After all, the Hollander could kill most light mechs in a single shot, punching holes straight through the armor both on the front and the back of the point of impact (this is extensively covered in the hypothetical thread; link in the signature). Pretty cool huh? Wish PGI dug into the lore before designing how MWO would work. Gauss Rifles would be terrifying. Then again maybe they would have started in 3025 and had time to solidify things before bumping up to the invasion.

    Edited by Koniving, 15 July 2017 - 10:34 AM.


    #51 MustrumRidcully

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    Posted 16 July 2017 - 06:40 AM

    View PostKoniving, on 15 July 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

    [spoiler]
    And the Hollander.
    Posted Image
    Hollander.

    Posted Image



    I knew the second Hollander picture, and I never liked it. The Hollander looks very strange. What's supposed to be where, what's the shoulder, his his left arm stabilizing the gun and he's basically firing blindly? Or is this an Escher painting?

    The first picture is a lot better.

    Edited by MustrumRidcully, 16 July 2017 - 06:41 AM.


    #52 Koniving

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    Posted 16 July 2017 - 07:06 AM

    View PostMustrumRidcully, on 16 July 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

    I knew the second Hollander picture, and I never liked it. The Hollander looks very strange. What's supposed to be where, what's the shoulder, his his left arm stabilizing the gun and he's basically firing blindly? Or is this an Escher painting?

    The first picture is a lot better.

    I should note:
    Most mechs could turn their heads... something forgotten in Mechwarrior games.
    Believe it or not, the Jenner has a turning head...but no torso twist. However, it doesn't need one so to speak. Despite the lack of elbows, it can aim left and right with those upper-actuator-only arms and the lack of a torso makes high speed piloting easier which is why faster mechs (generally) do not have torso twist.

    What appears to be an excessively bulky left shoulder is actually part of the cannon. The head is pivoted to look at us, and that's part of the chest plate as well as concealing the neck.

    But yes, the first image does look considerably better.
    A better depiction of the original.
    Posted Image

    It is worth noting that fully standing, it is taller than a Hunchback.
    This should also tell us why most mechs don't sport Gauss Rifles in some 3040+ variant.

    Also worth noting:
    Hunchbacks in Battletech are shorter than MWO Panthers, though in BT the two are almost equally sized. Also worth noting is that Commandos are also about the same height, maybe a bit shorter than Hunchbacks, but as tall as Battletech Shadowhawk 2Ds (which are 2 meters shorter than the SHK 5th gen; keep in mind an SHK 2D's armor is on par with a Commando's, too.)
    Posted Image

    Also interesting is actual mech weights:
    In reality, a Hollander's weight is actually: 18 tons. (Fixed mistake. Side note, one "could" consider ammo bins [empty] to be 0.5 tons but that's splitting hairs.) The remaining of its 35 tons is the weapon and ammo.

    Then again an Atlas's actual weight before being given a loadout is: 64 tons. Of that, the skeleton is only 10 tons.

    A Powerman XI Loadermech is listed as 35 tons, but that's with the cargo bays filled. It's actually 30.5 tons with the cargo bays empty.
    The Hunchback is actually 30.5 tons without weapons. or the ammo drum.

    Knowing their actual weights help to put their scales into perspective, too.
    Removing armor, Hunchback is 21.5 tons.
    Hollander is 14 tons.
    Shadow Hawk 2D is 32.5 tons.

    If you cut enough of the equipment, ultimately the SHK is just 2.5 tons heavier than the Hunchback and 3.5 tons heavier than the Hollander. This is why they are all so similar in size. The Commando is half a ton lighter than a Hollander if you remove everything that doesn't actually attribute to the mech's size.

    Edited by Koniving, 18 July 2017 - 07:32 AM.


    #53 General Taskeen

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    Posted 30 July 2017 - 11:15 AM

    View PostJames The Fox Dixon, on 28 May 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:


    They must have changed the fluff on it then. In the original 3025 TRO it stated that the DC model was the Draconis Combine version of the 7-D's that Kurita captured as salvage or from warehouses that held them.


    Looking through Technical Readout: 3025 (Original) and Technical Readout: 3025 (Revised) there is no mention of this Kurita 7-D you speak of. "DC" designation originally meant "Dual Cockpit" and Dual Cockpit rules were then effectively merged with Command Console rules, but obviously designations did not change to "CC". The Command Console is still effectively two cockpits (two pilots in one Mech, one is backup - usually a Battalion level Commander). Perhaps you are mixing up the DRG-5K-DC. The AS7-D-DC is a Lyran Commonwealth fit.

    The record sheets reflect this by showing the CC taking up the critical slot now, rather than the old rules stating the DCC with a standard cockpit extended to occupy two slots with each location marked as "pilot" and "gunner" and weighed 4 tons (one more than a normal cockpit). Where-as now a "DC" Mech uses a Standard Cockpit (3 tons) + Command Console (3 tons) = 6 tons total. It is a little confusing, but really all you need to know is that the Command Console effectively has taken over and with rules listed for it in Tactical Operations.





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