109 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Rampage, on 27 May 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

When you complete the cadet bonus PGI gives you 48,000 GXP. That is more than enough to get the max Coolrun and a bunch of Heatgen. With 48,000 and some of your Academy and Cadet bonus C-Bills you can buy 60 Skill point nodes. That is more than enough to get you somewhat competitive and the other 31 SP will come quickly if you play the Mech regularly.

The new player is getting a pretty decent boost to start off to help them get into the game.

Here is the problem. As a brand new player they will have zero clue about any of the mechs that are in the game. They don't know what is good, bad or otherwise and they have zero real knowledge about outfitting that mech let alone what to do with 91 out of 237 skill nodes. It isn't until they get to try out maybe a dozen different mechs and experiment with dozens more builds and configurations that they will have some grasp on things and be able to maybe start properly skilling out a mech.

Now I am not saying things were better before, but I am saying that I do truly believe that the new skill tree makes for a much more complex and potentially frustrating new player experience.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 27 May 2017 - 01:04 PM.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Phoolan Devi, on 27 May 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

Ok, I'll give ypu some......in compressed style:

The new skill tree is good, because:

- it means less grind for new players- Rule of Three fallacy and actually is an increase to NPE since they have to spend cbills to level their Skills instead of saving for the next Mech is the Rule of Three had just been away with cleanly. It was an improvement that was included in a substantial detriment which kinda nullifies the whole thing
- you can have the module advantages of more "modules" than before- This is true but then you are taking an even bigger hit to where the old "placeholder" skill system put your mech before, it could have been easily solved by splitting the Modules into different Teirs and adding more Slots. So that Hill Climb, AMS Overload, etc could be taken as well as Radar Derp, Seismic, and other top level Modules
- range got buffed- Clan buff over IS
- you can specialize your mech now- Make an overall worse version
- you can have more than two consumables now Benefits older players and punishes new players with a usage cost, not P2W but definitely pushing Pay 2 B Better limit

Fixed That For You

You had one semi valid point in there but there was much cleaner and easier ways of addressing that issue.

[JC Daxion]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 27 May 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

Fixed That For You

You had one semi valid point in there but there was much cleaner and easier ways of addressing that issue.

Do you even play IS mechs? all i see on your stats is assault.. My guess you are angry that your KD3 got nerfed


But it is funny that you say it punishes new players.. My Alt account is a clan account that i don't play much. It has been substatially boosted with the changes. I did not have access to many modules before for example, now i can buy, play and tweak mechs exactly how i want.

Edited by JC Daxion, 27 May 2017 - 03:42 PM.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

JC Daxion, on 27 May 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

Do you even play IS mechs? all i see on your stats is assault.. My guess you are angry that your KD3 got nerfed

this is a Clan account I just started after all these years around the Tukayid event... I play mainly IS mechs cause Clan is just too easy mode for me to find it interesting. KDK-3 had a sum total of 384xp after Mastery, cause I mastered every mech but i quite literally never played it again until it was going to cost an extra 80k XP under the original Skill Maze system proposed.

Edited by KekistanWillRiseAgain, 27 May 2017 - 03:47 PM.

[stillnight]

Now all my friends know why I won't play MechWarrior Online hardly at all anymore. I barely if at all break over 2 million C-Bills and now PGI expects us to pay out the *** perk out our mechs. And if you don't? Then you won't get killed by more skilled pilots you'll just die because you lack insufficient funds to even tweak you mech to SURVIVE long enough to make any C-Bills.

I mean before in the beta for Skill Tree 2.0 you'd have to pay 100k each for every node. But even then once you buy a new mech you'll still be hard pressed to even survive against people who have billions upon trillions of C-Bills.

The only message I'm getting from the 'Skill Tree 2.0' is grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, and grind to survive = Fun Level 0%


Good Job PGI. Least we have MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries
to look forwards to...

[Rodrigo Martinez]

From the current event I got a new mech. It have no XP at all and I'll try to levelup it like a new pilot without spending GXP or GSP. How many nodes will make cooling of my mech as it was before patch in basic? But still it's not a pure new mech experience because I have premium time and x2 exp event.

[Phoolan Devi]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 27 May 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

Fixed That For You

You had one semi valid point in there but there was much cleaner and easier ways of addressing that issue.

You "fixed" it wrong! With less grind for new players I did not refer, as written, to the rule of three, but on the grind that was needed to unlock modules. 15,000 gxp for radar derp, adv zoom, etc. Each weapon module needed 3,500 gxp to unlock fully. I don't know if you remember how it was as a new player, but I do since I play this game only since a year and a half. So, even not considering the rule of three, the new skill tree is an outright reduction of grind!

To your secon point, well, they could have, but it would have made the old skill system even more of a mess than it was. I kinda chuckle if ppl call the new skill tree a maze......they seem not to have looked into the old system for very long because if the description of maze fits, it's for the old system, not the new one!

Third: With range quirks one can easily outrange clan ER-Lasers, Gauss and ER-PPC's.

Fourth: Well, I think otherwise, but that might be just personal taste, even though taking into consideration that range and cooldown now applies to all weapons, it is by fact, that in these categories it is a better version as soon as you have more than one weapon.

Fifth: It doesn't punish new players, how could it?

[Phoolan Devi]

stillnight, on 27 May 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

Now all my friends know why I won't play MechWarrior Online hardly at all anymore. I barely if at all break over 2 million C-Bills and now PGI expects us to pay out the *** perk out our mechs. And if you don't? Then you won't get killed by more skilled pilots you'll just die because you lack insufficient funds to even tweak you mech to SURVIVE long enough to make any C-Bills.

I mean before in the beta for Skill Tree 2.0 you'd have to pay 100k each for every node. But even then once you buy a new mech you'll still be hard pressed to even survive against people who have billions upon trillions of C-Bills.

The only message I'm getting from the 'Skill Tree 2.0' is grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, and grind to survive = Fun Level 0%


Good Job PGI. Least we have MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries
to look forwards to...

For your mechs you have and had mastered, you pay naught!

Second, what is it with this whining about playing an unskilled mech? I mean, it always has been like that and always will be like that! It's not as if an unskilled mech is unplayable.....or, if they are, then they always have been. Nothing changed in that regard!

Edited by Phoolan Devi, 27 May 2017 - 05:31 PM.

[JC Daxion]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 27 May 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

this is a Clan account I just started after all these years around the Tukayid event... I play mainly IS mechs cause Clan is just too easy mode for me to find it interesting. KDK-3 had a sum total of 384xp after Mastery, cause I mastered every mech but i quite literally never played it again until it was going to cost an extra 80k XP under the original Skill Maze system proposed.

well then you should know it was not a blanket nerf to IS. Many of the IS mechs are performing far better. (and yes, it was a bit of a nerf everywhere, but if every mech is dealing with it, then it's not a flat out nerf)

For instance i completed the event running my Death's Kneel, CMD-1D and Atlas K, Both were considered not all that hot before the skill tree. Both are pretty fantastic post. My DK is running near neck and neck with my ARC, which is arguably the best light in the game. My atlas, flat out out tanks my Warhawk and dire by a good margin and piles on damage very well. HBK's are On par with Nova's which are stomping people left and right.

I am sure not every IS mech has it great, but same with clans. Heck even the Victor and Dragon are getting new life. victors can really move now, and with the JJ perks and armor bonuses the things tank like champs and are super mobile.

All i gotta say is if you think it's just a all around nerf to IS, then you are playing the wrong IS mechs..

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

JC Daxion, on 27 May 2017 - 06:55 PM, said:

well then you should know it was not a blanket nerf to IS. Many of the IS mechs are performing far better. (and yes, it was a bit of a nerf everywhere, but if every mech is dealing with it, then it's not a flat out nerf)

For instance i completed the event running my Death's Kneel, CMD-1D and Atlas K, Both were considered not all that hot before the skill tree. Both are pretty fantastic post. My DK is running near neck and neck with my ARC, which is arguably the best light in the game. My atlas, flat out out tanks my Warhawk and dire by a good margin and piles on damage very well. HBK's are On par with Nova's which are stomping people left and right.

I am sure not every IS mech has it great, but same with clans. Heck even the Victor and Dragon are getting new life. victors can really move now, and with the JJ perks and armor bonuses the things tank like champs and are super mobile.

All i gotta say is if you think it's just a all around nerf to IS, then you are playing the wrong IS mechs..

People playing them nor the fact that the skill level of the Solo Queue has plummeted down to playing Sunday morning on the European servers levels of bad makes them good or even viable once the player skill levels equalize out again. The JJ tree is the only thing more useless than Survival tree short of 4 mechs with insane Structure AND Armor quirks... but sure, you keep living in your fantasy land where potatoville full of the very worst terribad concentration I have ever seen in the game makes those mechs good (really you are just a decent pilot which will make anything shine in that sea of awfulness)

[Insanity09]

I think the important point is less about comparing old vs new, and simply recognizing that the new skill system is a serious cash burden on a new player (or anyone skilling a mech who does not have large cash reserves).

Overall, under the new skill system a new player will be extremely slow to get more mechs, and to get enough cbills to customize them.
You basically need to chose between skilling them up or customizing, since you really can't do both at once, cash-wise.

It is a slow, painful slog of a grind. Very unwelcoming for a new player, in my estimation. A new player will NOT be expanding their mech stable beyond the one mech that the cadet bonuses get them any time soon. Another thing driving new players away hurts the game, imo.

How about some gritty details?

Cadet/Training bonus total: 15.5M cbills. (does not include the cash from the matches)
GXP bonus 48000
Cost to 'master' a mech in the new system: 72,800 xp + ~4.1M cbills.

Some quick math suggests you will NOT have enough xp (+gxp) to fully master ONE mech after the 25 cadet matches. (48k < 72.8k)
If you bought the mech earlier and started accumulating actual xp for it... nah, still wouldn't have enough xp, though you would be closer.
You would certainly have enough cash on hand to do so, as long as the mech you bought was not expensive. And as long as the mech didn't have higher costs of conversion to viability (DHS, endo/ff, XL). Basically, if you went light or medium, you'd probably be fine.
The bonuses do give you a serious leg up on mastering your shiny new mech (60 nodes, done). After that... ew.
(I can see why they added the gxp infusion. Without that...)


I have now played with mechs bought recently to try and skill them up naturally, by which I mean using only the xp/cbills I earn with the matches for that mech. I do not currently have premium time, and the mechs I had purchased were not heroes. I do have plenty of cash, but went au naturel for the sake of the experiment.

What I found was it is painfully slow to do so. Forget about using consumables (way too expensive), forget about slowly building up a cash reserve to expand your mech stable. Basically the cash you earn is mostly earmarked for skill nodes. That's it. I was finding that for most mediocre matches I earned enough cash to convert the xp I got into skill points, with ~15k cbills to spare per sp that went into the funds for anything else I might need to buy. However, for skilling purposes, you are now better off simply playing one mech over and over so that the double xp bonus for the first win isn't hindering your efforts.
(personally, I need more variety in my play, so thank goodness I could switch to different mechs after a while. A newer player might not be able to do that. They also might not feel the need for it, so meh.)

For example, if I earned ~2000 xp, I might have gotten around 115k cbills. 90k of that went straight to sp purchase, leaving me with 25k left over for the match. Not even enough to buy a consumable. (that was the direct result of one match)
Moreover, realize I was halfway to being able to convert another sp, so in that specific case, the 25k left over was really more like 2.5k.
That number has been fairly consistent regardless of how well I did in the match, better performance means more cash, yes, but also more xp, so more of the cash goes straight to sp conversion. Eg. one match I got ~290k cbills, but made ~4k xp, so 225k cbills went to conversion, ~65k cbills left over, or ~12k per sp
Need to customize the mech with DHS or an XL? Too bad. How about new weapons? Better hope they are cheap.
(now with the double xp weekend? Fuhgetaboutit, not enough cash to convert the xp to sp. I assume champ mechs would suffer the same pain.)

(Oh, and I will freely admit that on one mech I had purchased that had ECM, I cheated, because ECM is basically worthless without the skill nodes. After a couple matches I realized that, and I bought the 15 skill nodes needed to get the ECm nodes with gsp. A new player would not have that luxury. I'd recommend that new/poor players NOT use ECM mechs unless they have enough spare cash/gxp lying around to get those nodes immediately (675k cbills and 12k gxp). Or strip off the ECM until you do, cuz it's just parasitic weight until then.)

[Phoolan Devi]

Insanity09, on 27 May 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

I think the important point is less about comparing old vs new, and simply recognizing that the new skill system is a serious cash burden on a new player (or anyone skilling a mech who does not have large cash reserves).

Overall, under the new skill system a new player will be extremely slow to get more mechs, and to get enough cbills to customize them.
You basically need to chose between skilling them up or customizing, since you really can't do both at once, cash-wise.

It is a slow, painful slog of a grind. Very unwelcoming for a new player, in my estimation. A new player will NOT be expanding their mech stable beyond the one mech that the cadet bonuses get them any time soon. Another thing driving new players away hurts the game, imo.

How about some gritty details?

Cadet/Training bonus total: 15.5M cbills. (does not include the cash from the matches)
GXP bonus 48000
Cost to 'master' a mech in the new system: 72,800 xp + ~4.1M cbills.

Some quick math suggests you will NOT have enough xp (+gxp) to fully master ONE mech after the 25 cadet matches. (48k &lt; 72.8k)
If you bought the mech earlier and started accumulating actual xp for it... nah, still wouldn't have enough xp, though you would be closer.
You would certainly have enough cash on hand to do so, as long as the mech you bought was not expensive. And as long as the mech didn't have higher costs of conversion to viability (DHS, endo/ff, XL). Basically, if you went light or medium, you'd probably be fine.
The bonuses do give you a serious leg up on mastering your shiny new mech (60 nodes, done). After that... ew.
(I can see why they added the gxp infusion. Without that...)


I have now played with mechs bought recently to try and skill them up naturally, by which I mean using only the xp/cbills I earn with the matches for that mech. I do not currently have premium time, and the mechs I had purchased were not heroes. I do have plenty of cash, but went au naturel for the sake of the experiment.

What I found was it is painfully slow to do so. Forget about using consumables (way too expensive), forget about slowly building up a cash reserve to expand your mech stable. Basically the cash you earn is mostly earmarked for skill nodes. That's it. I was finding that for most mediocre matches I earned enough cash to convert the xp I got into skill points, with ~15k cbills to spare per sp that went into the funds for anything else I might need to buy. However, for skilling purposes, you are now better off simply playing one mech over and over so that the double xp bonus for the first win isn't hindering your efforts.
(personally, I need more variety in my play, so thank goodness I could switch to different mechs after a while. A newer player might not be able to do that. They also might not feel the need for it, so meh.)

For example, if I earned ~2000 xp, I might have gotten around 115k cbills. 90k of that went straight to sp purchase, leaving me with 25k left over for the match. Not even enough to buy a consumable. (that was the direct result of one match)
Moreover, realize I was halfway to being able to convert another sp, so in that specific case, the 25k left over was really more like 2.5k.
That number has been fairly consistent regardless of how well I did in the match, better performance means more cash, yes, but also more xp, so more of the cash goes straight to sp conversion. Eg. one match I got ~290k cbills, but made ~4k xp, so 225k cbills went to conversion, ~65k cbills left over, or ~12k per sp
Need to customize the mech with DHS or an XL? Too bad. How about new weapons? Better hope they are cheap.
(now with the double xp weekend? Fuhgetaboutit, not enough cash to convert the xp to sp. I assume champ mechs would suffer the same pain.)

(Oh, and I will freely admit that on one mech I had purchased that had ECM, I cheated, because ECM is basically worthless without the skill nodes. After a couple matches I realized that, and I bought the 15 skill nodes needed to get the ECm nodes with gsp. A new player would not have that luxury. I'd recommend that new/poor players NOT use ECM mechs unless they have enough spare cash/gxp lying around to get those nodes immediately (675k cbills and 12k gxp). Or strip off the ECM until you do, cuz it's just parasitic weight until then.)

Strangely we have a different experience then, since I started an alt just before patch and I get along just fine, c-bill wise.

I just want to point out two flaws that I think are relevant. 1st being, that if you get 2000xp in a mstvh it is highly unlikely that you only get 115k c-bill. It would be rather in the region of 250k.
2nd An average new player is very unlikely to have an average xp of 2000. If the one is really good, it might be around 1000, more realisticly around 600-700. But lets assume that the new player averages around 800xp amd 125,000 c-bills a match. That would leave 80,000 c-bills for spoils.

Consumables are optional and, to be honest, never worth the cost! One gets along fine w/out them.

[kf envy]

my self I think the old and new skill tree systems our both bad. I feel the skill tree needs to be taken away from each mech an just make an pilot skill tree that will have the player specialize in there game play and mech class

[Chados]

Those of you defending the skill tree's mechanics are missing the point.

I'm not arguing that the skill tree ought to be scrapped or that in general it sucks more than the old system. On the contrary, there always have been things about it I greatly enjoy. I bought two Clan hero mechs I never would have bought absent the Rule of 3 being scrapped, and I like the ability to use the survival tree to up the sustainability of what normally are very fragile builds. But the grind is real and the differences between a 91/91 mech and a 0/91 mech are more pronounced than they used to be, particularly on the Clan side. Some of you do get it that something has to be done to reduce the pain that is a new player's first weeks in the game-the Academy bonuses just are nowhere near enough to start a noob off down the retention road-and I salute you. A lot of you others just want it to be as hard and grindy as possible for them because hell, we all had to suffer so they ought to have to suffer too. That is, in the end, what all the angry shouting from those who want to preserve the status quo unchanged boils down to.

This is not to say that *experienced* pilots can't make a fresh mech work. They can, particularly on Clan side. My very first match in a wholly unmastered Nanuq netted 772 damage, one kill, and 3 KMDD, in a match my team lost, so no 2x bonus and we always make less XP when we lose than when we win. Counting GXP and allowing for a run of luck, I figure that it would take me about 75 matches at my usual,progression rate to skill up a fresh mech, and for me it isn't too far off what it would take to master a mech under the old system when allowing for basics on two others. I ended up spending GXP and 4 million Cbills on the Nanuq after my first drop because I wanted to see how pronounced the difference is in combat between unskilled and skilled on a high tier mech (I don't usually run Clan mid range brawlers and in PTS I was more concerned about Catapults) and I agree that some mechs go a long way toward evening the balance. The main difference was in heat management; the rest were very subtle. But I've been in the game two years and suffered though some real hard times to get those skills. It's not an exaggeration to say that my balance didn't break a million for the first year I was in game. That happened. It happened because a new player has to spend herself dry to reequip IS mechs or to buy Clan mechs which are a lot more expensive. Cost to buy Clan vs rebuilding IS from 3025 levels are comparable and I think that is intentional on PGI's part. But it's a Cbill sink. That also probably is intentional.

Again, my point is not "skill tree sux scrap it NAO." My point is that it has made the new player's learning curve lean backwards past vertical. Giving rewards that will master just one mech for them after the 25th match will go a very long way toward hooking them and retaining them. I also have now joined the camp that says trial mechs and players with less than 25 matches should be locked out of CW. I used not to believe that. The last couple weeks in the new system have brought me around. All a few CW drops in trial builds will do is scare a new player who can't walk and chew gum at the same time away.

Edited by Chados, 28 May 2017 - 03:01 AM.

[BurningDesire]

JC Daxion, on 27 May 2017 - 06:55 PM, said:

well then you should know it was not a blanket nerf to IS. Many of the IS mechs are performing far better. (and yes, it was a bit of a nerf everywhere, but if every mech is dealing with it, then it's not a flat out nerf)

For instance i completed the event running my Death's Kneel, CMD-1D and Atlas K, Both were considered not all that hot before the skill tree. Both are pretty fantastic post. My DK is running near neck and neck with my ARC, which is arguably the best light in the game. My atlas, flat out out tanks my Warhawk and dire by a good margin and piles on damage very well. HBK's are On par with Nova's which are stomping people left and right.

I am sure not every IS mech has it great, but same with clans. Heck even the Victor and Dragon are getting new life. victors can really move now, and with the JJ perks and armor bonuses the things tank like champs and are super mobile.

All i gotta say is if you think it's just a all around nerf to IS, then you are playing the wrong IS mechs..

All im going to say is Cicada 3C you can do your own comparison but yep only nerf the OP ones

[sneeking]

kf envy, on 28 May 2017 - 01:44 AM, said:

my self I think the old and new skill tree systems our both bad. I feel the skill tree needs to be taken away from each mech an just make an pilot skill tree that will have the player specialize in there game play and mech class

nothings perfect but this new system is an improvement

who dosent love running their cn9 AL with 2x large laser in the arm then suddenly decideing i wanna go ppc in the arm next match and then with the weight saved maybe go from a lrm 10 to a lrm15 and then not having to play find the modules minni game !

its that moment right there when you realize


this is great !

[Phoolan Devi]

kf envy, on 28 May 2017 - 01:44 AM, said:

my self I think the old and new skill tree systems our both bad. I feel the skill tree needs to be taken away from each mech an just make an pilot skill tree that will have the player specialize in there game play and mech class

Actually, there should be no skill tree at all! The pilot skill tree is you......

[sneeking]

Phoolan Devi, on 28 May 2017 - 04:17 AM, said:

Actually, there should be no skill tree at all! The pilot skill tree is you......

ideally yes but how would they balance the skillful from the potatoes?

[Davegt27]

my costs

Edited by Davegt27, 04 June 2017 - 05:53 PM.

[irRational Agent]

Viktor Drake, on 27 May 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

Here is the problem. As a brand new player they will have zero clue about any of the mechs that are in the game. They don't know what is good, bad or otherwise and they have zero real knowledge about outfitting that mech let alone what to do with 91 out of 237 skill nodes. It isn't until they get to try out maybe a dozen different mechs and experiment with dozens more builds and configurations that they will have some grasp on things and be able to maybe start properly skilling out a mech.

Now I am not saying things were better before, but I am saying that I do truly believe that the new skill tree makes for a much more complex and potentially frustrating new player experience.

Speak for yourself. Being familiar with the game title and keyboard layout from previous MW's I found it quite easy. It is not really all that hard to understand MWO. I just read up on everything current and then went from there.
Maybe it helps that I know how to search Reddit and of course that lead me to MetaMechs but come on you think MWO is really all that difficult?
With the cadet bonus I went straight into a KDK 3 which makes farming c-bills and GPX easy as. If I did it again today I would go for a MAD IIC and the difference would be I would not have to buy 3 of the same mechs or put any exp into radar/seismic. So I think you'll find the new system is much easier then what I was previously looking at having to do,
I quit for a while but recently came back and I must say I love this. I was wondering how I was going to get enough mechbays for a FW drop deck and save up the c-bills to buy not 3 more mechs but 9 to master them. I don't have to anymore and I actually enjoy this 150% more then what it was.
One of the things I think that holds people back is themselves. All the information you could ever want is on the internet. Printable map layouts, strats, rated mech listings, and even skill tree planners. There has been so much wonderful work put into this by the community of players its crazy.
I guess I’m used to doing a bit of reading before I play but like I said if you know BT or MW this is pretty straight forward stuff.
So are you really worried but new players? Because I think PGI has fixed a lot of things I disliked about the game and with the new tech coming out I think it'll come as close to balanced as you can possibly make a BT based game.