39 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

Please bear in mind I am referring to Quick Play and not to FW.


In general: Before the patch sniping was the dominant playstyle. Lurming was there to some degree. Brawling was nearly dead but a brawler who got close by storming (if he wasn't too softened up beforehand by too much long range fire) or being sneaky had a chance to cause some serious damage.

After the patch the gameplay seems to be often even more static - which I wouldn't have believed possible. The whole battle often is a Verdun revival (for the non-historians: static trench warfare at its ummm "finest").

All I see is mid-/long range laser vomit, gauss/ppc - even on extreme range - and a lurmfest. So, it is no surprise that this happens.

What amplifies this behaviour is, however, the longer CD and heat dispersion.

These two last points make it also problematic for brawlers. Simply because they cannot take a target out fast anymore while snipers or mid-range laser vomiters simply lolalpha and then crawl behind a rock and wait for the heat to go down and rinse and repeat.

For lights the situation seems in most cases worse than before. The 35t still get easily hit because of their huge size. While you can roll the laser vomit to some extend, you cannot roll the enormous pin-point crap. Nevertheless the prior will sooner or later open your torsi because the vomit is quite high.

Basically, lights are reduced to 2 roles. Either a second rate sniper - evey fast medium can do it better and redeploy quickly as well or unrewarding drive-by-shooting. You just sprinkle your damage over the mech trying to get as much as possible in one place while running past behind the next obstacle.

And heck, you will nevertheless get hit when you do the latter.

Going into an in-fight seems to be still suicide. You have to run away anway because soon you will get "missile incoming" blaring at you.

Investing into the survial tree doesn't seem to do anything (for non-armour quirked lights).

Whatever. Soon a certain beta begins and I can take a break because I am honestly fed-up by the static gameplay and the state of light mechs.

[JC Daxion]

well i only have dropped a little in light/fast mechs. ARC, surprise this mech is still strong. Cicada, only dropped in my 2 LPL, it runs hotter, cools a bit slower, but still was a decent mech. And my commando Death's Kneel. wow did this thing get a nice boost. With the other mechs moving slower, and this one still moving right along, with the structure/armor buffs it is very tanky. I took 3 hits from an AC 20 + other weapons and still kept on going while brawling with a cataphract. Before the tree this mech would of been down for the count. After, i had some open armor, but was still alive, and didn't loose my arm weapons.

Commandos are viable again for sure, well at least the DK anyway

[FupDup]

So TL;DR: The light class' position in the pecking order is more or less unchanged.

[Requiemking]

FupDup, on 26 May 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

So TL;DR: The light class' position in the pecking order is more or less unchanged.

Well, fix mechs scaling and the score system and suddenly that changes.

[Escef]

I'm not a great light pilot, but on request pulled out a Firestarter a few times in the past week an a half. And my Ember snd FS9-A are both solid performers pre and post skill. I'm actually holding off on my FS9-H as I'm likely to change the build radically after the timejump (right now it's a 255XL, AC5, and 3xML, after timejump I'm thinking bigger engine and a mix of MLs and LPPCs).

Edited by Escef, 26 May 2017 - 01:18 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Requiemking, on 26 May 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

score system and suddenly that changes.

Fixing the score system won't change the crappy nature of playing nature, it is more throwing a bone to players who just happen to be masochists.

[JC Daxion]

Escef, on 26 May 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

I'm not a great light pilot, but on request pulled out a Firestarter a few times in the past week an a half. And my Ember snd FS9-A are both solid performers pre and post skill. I'm actually holding off on my FS9-H as I'm likely to change the build radically after the timejump (right now it's a 255XL, AC5, and 3xML, after timejump I'm thinking bigger engine and a mix of MLs and LPPCs).

Heh, i have been putting off FS's till they come out with the LFE. You will loose a little speed, but i think it just might work.


As far as lights go in QP, I know i have a lot of fun with um. I know my stats don't really show it, but i swear i can do more to effect my team in a well played light, than say an average assault game. Maybe because more people can do average in an assault, and it's harder to do well in a light? I dunno..


Maybe Group and FW comp level is different.. But even in FW, i find i can still do well in them even with lots of good players on the other team. Then again i also do better on the normal QP maps in FW than i did on the FW maps. I'm rambling..


So yea, it seams like some lights did get a buff over all.

[Weeny Machine]

Requiemking, on 26 May 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

Well, fix mechs scaling and the score system and suddenly that changes.

Scaling would help. But hey, they are not allowed to throw lights a bone because the volumetric approach dictates it....yet on the other hand a Linebacker has nearly the same agility stats as a mech 30 tons lighter and 2 weight classes lower.

JC Daxion, on 26 May 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

So yea, it seams like some lights did get a buff over all.

I have no idea in which tier you play but lights still feel terrible fragile in T1.

As for buffing...the lights which need to get close to the enemy seem to have the problems imo. Size and lack of agility (or too agile enemies?) take care of that.

As I said above: you cannot roll pinpoint damage.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 26 May 2017 - 01:36 PM.

[JC Daxion]

T2, i see lots of you t1's in my matches.. Sometimes they get me, sometimes i get them as i said i don't play in group often, so not going up against comp 12 mans for sure.



Te commando can take a hit., it can sink 40 damage in arms/LT/RT, CT/legs can take 60 ( back is obviously lower) and still working with a few HP to spare, that is sweet!

ARC i feel is the same as before, though might run a little hotter, and be that slight step slower like everyone else, but it was pretty fast/nimble before, and it still is.)

I have not played locust, spider, raven, javelin, firestarter, adder or kitfox yet..

Edited by JC Daxion, 26 May 2017 - 01:49 PM.

[sycocys]

Death Knell has zero problems - no armor, no speed tweak and mobility only as far as a few kinetic bursts.

I also can't say that I had any problems brawling with MPL/ML/SRMs in mediums or heavies either. Almost identical node setups.

But that's just been my experience, I never broke away from brawling since the start of the game so the long range meta never really bothered me all that much it just means the enemy mechs are running nice an hot by the time I get up to them.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Need the new tech to evaluate lights seriously... HMG, Smaller PPCs, ER lasers...

[Y E O N N E]

I can say the following, because I have played the following:

Firestarter takes forever and a day to align its torso and it can't maneuver well at all. This is after having invested wholly into the Mobility tree. It's awful and stiff feeling and can fight neither other Lights very well nor Heavies. When you do well in it, it's more because the enemy was stupid and didn't pay attention to you than because the 'Mech is legitimately good. There is potential for the FS9 to be awesome, and letting it dance again would be a big start.

Mist Lynx gets too hot, too fast, even with the appropriate Skills taken because the jets, which are essential to its survival, are too many and generate heat way too fast and because the weapons demand too many resources and an extra heat-sink can't be spared. You are bouncing around too much to cool down and you can't stop or you die. It also turns and accelerates too slowly for its weight and level of protection; it's like PGI saw that it was a slower Light and decided to give it a crappier base rate so their little curve wouldn't "overbuff" it. And its arms still fall off after a stern glance even with 40 armor, never mind that the most valuable arms have only token structure quirks and zero armor.

Locust is now pigeon-holed into the close-range role. You have to drop a MedLas on the 1E, from six to five, to not run hotter than the surface of the sun. That means now you have to expose more often to stack the damage and that is bad. It's like the Locust isn't allowed to run more than ~25 firepower on any variant, because that's the limit you can feasibly manage. The loss of agility didn't hurt it too badly, not with the duration decrease also being there, but the heat just murders output over the match. Also, the loss of missile cool-down rate on the LCT-3S is painful. I could understand maybe a small cut, but they cut it in half, making it pointless to run instead of the more versatile 1M, let alone the energy variants. They also nerfed the LCT-3V for whatever unholy reason. LCT needs some hardpoint shakeups.

Commando is awesome within the category of Lights. At least, the TDK is. Even the 1B isn't too shabby, not with MedLas that can have the same duration as a stock MedPulse. The Commando might usurp the position previously enjoyed by the Locust, or at least tie with it. CMD could also use some hardpoint shakeups, though.

All that said, the Lights are still something of a punching bag.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 26 May 2017 - 02:39 PM.

[Sagamore]

I'm really enjoying my commandos, specifically my TDK (38 armour + structure on each arm after quirks) and my ECM packing 2D. I'm lasting longer and feeling like I'm contributing. Never felt this good about commandos since the beta days. They were my 2nd ever mech after Atlas so it's nice that they are in a better place.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 May 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

I can say the following, because I have played the following:

Firestarter takes forever and a day to align its torso and it can't maneuver well at all. This is after having invested wholly into the Mobility tree. It's awful and stiff feeling and can fight neither other Lights very well nor Heavies. When you do well in it, it's more because the enemy was stupid and didn't pay attention to you than because the 'Mech is legitimately good. There is potential for the FS9 to be awesome, and letting it dance again would be a big start.

Mist Lynx gets too hot, too fast, even with the appropriate Skills taken because the jets, which are essential to its survival, are too many and generate heat way too fast and because the weapons demand too many resources and an extra heat-sink can't be spared. You are bouncing around too much to cool down and you can't stop or you die. It also turns and accelerates too slowly for its weight and level of protection; it's like PGI saw that it was a slower Light and decided to give it a crappier base rate so their little curve wouldn't "overbuff" it. And its arms still fall off after a stern glance even with 40 armor, never mind that the most valuable arms have only token structure quirks and zero armor.

Locust is now pigeon-holed into the close-range role. You have to drop a MedLas on the 1E, from six to five, to not run hotter than the surface of the sun. That means now you have to expose more often to stack the damage and that is bad. It's like the Locust isn't allowed to run more than ~25 firepower on any variant, because that's the limit you can feasibly manage. The loss of agility didn't hurt it too badly, not with the duration decrease also being there, but the heat just murders output over the match. Also, the loss of missile cool-down rate on the LCT-3S is painful. I could understand maybe a small cut, but they cut it in half, making it pointless to run instead of the more versatile 1M, let alone the energy variants. They also nerfed the LCT-3V for whatever unholy reason. LCT needs some hardpoint shakeups.

Commando is awesome within the category of Lights. At least, the TDK is. Even the 1B isn't too shabby, not with MedLas that can have the same duration as a stock MedPulse. The Commando might usurp the position previously enjoyed by the Locust, or at least tie with it. CMD could also use some hardpoint shakeups, though.

All that said, the Lights are still something of a punching bag.

How does adding 1 Heat Sink to a Locust make the difference between Useful and Hotter Than The Surface Of The Sun?

Because that is what you are doing, removing 1 ML to add a heatsink. You are saying that having 6ML and only firing 5 at a time is Hotter Than The Surface Of The Sun, but having 5 ML and 1 more heatsink makes it useable.

Or.. you only know how to alpha strike.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 26 May 2017 - 02:44 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

My Javelins, with only minimal effort in learning how to run them and only slapping on the first build that really came to mind, did great work when I ran them. The missile rack upgrade does wonders for lights with missile hardpoints, and laser duration does good work too.

I have also found that Flamers are suddenly incredibly good options to take. People are still hyper focused on cramming in more damage at the cost of heat management, and the new skill tree doesn't support it quite as much as the old system did. Flamers really punish bad fire discipline, and lights make for incredible Flamer carriers.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Prosperity Park, on 26 May 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

How does adding 1 Heat Sink to a Locust make the difference between Useful and Hotter Than The Surface Of The Sun?

Because that is what you are doing, removing 1 ML to add a heatsink. You are saying that having 6ML and only firing 5 at a time is Hotter Than The Surface Of The Sun, but having 5 ML and 1 more heatsink makes it useable.

Or.. you only know how to alpha strike.

I'm with this, the difference between the two's heat profile is negligible and for a light that is meant to poke I'd much rather have the higher alpha to make more of my exposure than a minor increase to DPS.

In other news, apparently the JR7-F is making a comeback for some reason, and the Commando is now known for being incredibly annoying (3A that is) and considering its tankiness and the LCT-3S nerf, it might be better than the LCT-3S for missile spewing lights.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 May 2017 - 03:07 PM.

[Dracol]

I get the feeling its not the mech's fault, but the playstyle. Back in the day, before hsr, lights could zip among an enemy team with impunity. That doesn't fly anymore. I find a lot of light pilots lack patience. A brawl build needa to wait a good amount of time before really engaging an enemy force. If a light is taking fire from a ppc/gauss mech, its because there are no other, larger targets for em to shoot.

And in regards to the rescale, its similiar to what happened when psr was introduced. The mediocre pilots who relied on the enemy's bad aim to be successful got confortable with mechs sized way too small. Cicada was dwarfing 35ton mechs, yet was only 5 tons heavier. When they were brought in line size wise, the good pilots were still good. Cause it don't matter the size of your mech if you shoot and scoot before the enemy can even turn and return fire.

[FupDup]

Prosperity Park, on 26 May 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

How does adding 1 Heat Sink to a Locust make the difference between Useful and Hotter Than The Surface Of The Sun?

Because that is what you are doing, removing 1 ML to add a heatsink. You are saying that having 6ML and only firing 5 at a time is Hotter Than The Surface Of The Sun, but having 5 ML and 1 more heatsink makes it useable.

Or.. you only know how to alpha strike.

Alpha striking is the only viable way to play a mech that requires minimal exposure time to survive. Chain-firing is derp.

If you equip weapons that you aren't even using most of the time, then it's a lot more productive to simply remove the weapons you aren't using. The stock Nova Prime is the best example of this.

[Deathlike]

Prosperity Park, on 26 May 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

How does adding 1 Heat Sink to a Locust make the difference between Useful and Hotter Than The Surface Of The Sun?

Because that is what you are doing, removing 1 ML to add a heatsink. You are saying that having 6ML and only firing 5 at a time is Hotter Than The Surface Of The Sun, but having 5 ML and 1 more heatsink makes it useable.

Or.. you only know how to alpha strike.

Uh, if you fire your lasers in any other way in a Light, you risk dying that much faster.

Do you understand how (fast) Lights (and Mediums) and how heat-DHS-engines work? It doesn't sound like you do, relative to all the other things that can kill them effortlessly.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

I'm with this, the difference between the two's heat profile is negligible and for a light that is meant to poke I'd much rather have the higher alpha to make more of my exposure than a minor increase to DPS.

In other news, apparently the JR7-F is making a comeback for some reason, and the Commando is now known for being incredibly annoying (3A that is) and considering its tankiness and the LCT-3S nerf, it might be better than the LCT-3S for missile spewing lights.

Outside of the some of the quirks, there isn't really a particular reason for that to happen for Jenners. With Jenners, you are trained to shoot at the CT anyways, but the ironic reality is that their side torsos are that much easier to shoot at (CT has a structure quirk) with the last series of hitbox changes (particularly since there are no quirks for the side torsos) and people seem to not know this (it will take months for some people to catch up with this, if people even see Jenners regularly)... that and their leg profile isn't as pronounced compared to other 35-tonners... which is possibly the other reason. TBH, I can't quite wrap my head around that idea... but I'll see for myself I guess?

Edited by Deathlike, 26 May 2017 - 04:45 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Prosperity Park, on 26 May 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

How does adding 1 Heat Sink to a Locust make the difference between Useful and Hotter Than The Surface Of The Sun?

Where did I ever say heat-sink in that particular section? That was in the MLX section, and one sink helps a lot with JJ heat.

Quote

Because that is what you are doing, removing 1 ML to add a heatsink. You are saying that having 6ML and only firing 5 at a time is Hotter Than The Surface Of The Sun, but having 5 ML and 1 more heatsink makes it useable.

Uh...no. That is not all I'm doing. I'm also reducing my heat per volley by 20% by removing the medium laser. That gives me four full volleys to three, or 100 damage to 90, and that's not even strictly true because I can't get three volleys with six without waiting for a bit after the second, so it's more realistically five to three. The extra heatsink helps bump the total DPS up a little bit, whether you spread it out over several partial volleys or wait for another alpha is immaterial.

While in relative terms it doesn't appear like a big difference between pre-patch and now, there are absolute limits to how low you can go before your utility on the field drops to unacceptable levels. Six MedLas on a Locust is that point. You have to drop nodes in more essential categories to get enough heat-gen to change that, so it's lose-lose-lose. Five MedLas is the optimal answer, and it's significantly less potent than before.

Quote

Or.. you only know how to alpha strike.

Dude, buddy, guy...don't be a pleb.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

I'm with this, the difference between the two's heat profile is negligible and for a light that is meant to poke I'd much rather have the higher alpha to make more of my exposure than a minor increase to DPS. In other news, apparently the JR7-F is making a comeback for some reason, and the Commando is now known for being incredibly annoying (3A that is) and considering its tankiness and the LCT-3S nerf, it might be better than the LCT-3S for missile spewing lights.

No. Once you get to heat soak, you have too long to wait for the next volley using 6x isML. Whether you split it into smaller pokes or wait for the big one is irrelevant, the DPS has ceased to exist in meaningful enough quantity.

The JR7-F is making a comeback because it has relatively high base agility for its size, a built-in duration quirk, more armor than a Locust, and it can carry more heat-sinks than a Locust. Without needing a dissipation quirk which, BTW, does nothing for heat cap deficit on the LCT with its 7x TrueDubs.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 26 May 2017 - 05:36 PM.