86 replies to this topic

[Ced Riggs]

Wayland, on 29 May 2017 - 03:00 AM, said:

IS vs IS battles would be awesome, then couldn't care less about balancing the tech. But clan players wouldn't like it. If IS had the option to drop against IS or clan. Clans would be ghost dropping forever

... do you think that IS would not be ghost dropping and/or waiting eternally, too? Do you think there is 17800 IS players of which 8900 went for a ten day nap and 8900 clan bots booted up during Tuk-Tuk III? I mean, if you cut the playerbase in half, both halves suffer from longer wait times. If you cut those halves yet again, for a third mode, everyone suffers even more.

IS vs IS
IS vs Clam
Clam vs Clam

That'd give us an average of 6000 players during peak event time for each mode, or a realistic 3000 for daily use, or a realistic 1000 for each time zone's peak time, which would mean the game is essentially dead, as it can very well dip below the 1000 concurrent number. That's horrible.

[TWIAFU]

Ced Riggs, on 29 May 2017 - 03:16 AM, said:

... do you think that IS would not be ghost dropping and/or waiting eternally, too?

Then FORCE population equilibrium between the two buckets.

Enforce population in CW then no more ghost drops. End the ability to jump ship to easy button wins on a whim. Greatly extend Merc Contracts and double down on penealities for breaking Loyality with an increase in reward.

Clans dont like ghost drops, go IS and give up easy button for fast drops.

I really hope the Civil War brings us IS vs IS for an extended period of time.

[Birthright]

This thread makes no sense.

IS mechs are the strongest mechs in the game right now,

there can be something said about weapon balance, but simply judging by mechs, IS is far superior since the skilltree implementation.

[Ced Riggs]

This is gonna be a multi-front war, I see.

TWIAFU, on 29 May 2017 - 04:09 AM, said:

Then FORCE population equilibrium between the two buckets.

It doesn't work all that well if you force people to go to a team they might not want to go to. Thankfully, there is no need to do such a thing, as we have almost perfect equlibrium.

Total Number of Unique Pilots who participated in Tukayyid: 17,380
Total Inner Sphere Pilots (Tukayyid): 8,640
Total Clan Pilots (at end of Tukayyid): 8,641
Total Freelance Pilots: 99

TWIAFU, on 29 May 2017 - 04:09 AM, said:

Enforce population in CW then no more ghost drops. End the ability to jump ship to easy button wins on a whim. Greatly extend Merc Contracts and double down on penealities for breaking Loyality with an increase in reward. Clans dont like ghost drops, go IS and give up easy button for fast drops.

For starters, in the post-skill tree era, IS has the stronger chassis. Clans run hotter, shoot slower, and burn considerbaly longer, with their advantages being eaten up by IS mechs being durable as if they were one category heavier. CSJ had the highest numbers because they had the highest payouts for mercs. The end result was a balanced pool and people switched in either direction. IS started with a higher amount of players, admittedly, but we're talking about a total of 400 (i.e., less than 5%) of players switching over all things considered - those 400 the IS had more than the clans.

TWIAFU, on 29 May 2017 - 04:09 AM, said:

I really hope the Civil War brings us IS vs IS for an extended period of time.

I see, you prefer it would only rain in your garden, damn the neighbors. Good to know you don't care about half of the game's population. You either play a dfifferent game than me, or you are willfully blind to the reality of what's going on in the game right now.

[Ajantise]

NebeIparder, on 29 May 2017 - 04:36 AM, said:

This thread makes no sense.

IS mechs are the strongest mechs in the game right now,

there can be something said about weapon balance, but simply judging by mechs, IS is far superior since the skilltree implementation.

So deleting the quirks for IS made it fair. If you have one side weaker, and you nerf it even more its now fair?

[Ajantise]

Ced Riggs, on 29 May 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

For starters, in the post-skill tree era, IS has the stronger chassis. Clans run hotter, shoot slower, and burn considerbaly longer, with their advantages being eaten up by IS mechs being durable as if they were one category heavier.

You are forgetting the:
1.More weapons slots
2.Indestructible side XL engine
3.More range
4.Two slots heat sinks (IS has 3)
5.More armor on side torso on majority of mechs
6.More AMS slots
7.Targeting computers
8.More damage on weapons

Edited by Ajantise, 29 May 2017 - 08:16 AM.

[Ced Riggs]

Ajantise, on 29 May 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

[all of that]

Call me once you have patched to the current version of the game.

[Trenchbird]

Why the hell do people keep bringing up side torso armor? The amount is literally the same. IS actually tends to have more thanks to armor buffs.

Edited by Catten Hart, 29 May 2017 - 08:17 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ajantise, on 28 May 2017 - 12:08 AM, said:

Because PGI does not know or want to balance IS and Clan (Why? I don't care anymore), why not give us IS only random battles so we can bridge the time to the civil war?

I want to play, but now the game for me is just not playable.
In this state, the game for IS only players is just not fair.
Almost double the weapons, indestructible side torso, longer range, smaller number of slots....
For IS only player its just like playing on "very hard" with a penalty of 65%.

I think that IS only random drops would be very popular now, and bring a lot of the players back.

Give me a break. I really do get sick of the whole clan OP posts. Do you even play Clan mechs?

Seriously, I am as unbasis at they get. I have and play an equal number of IS mech as I do Clan mechs and it has been a LONG, LONG time since I have felt any sort of inadequacy when playing an IS mech. Sure there was a point where this wasn't true, hell I even sold off over 1/2 my IS mechs because of it, but the point isn't now.

Also, we are 5-6 weeks away from the IS getting a crap-ton of new tech gifted to them which is going to have a major impact on IS vs Clan balance. LFE's alone are going to provide a massive boost to IS performance. Virtually all my Standard engine equiped IS mechs are either getting about 10 kph or more added to their speed or gaining 3-6 tons of space for weapons, DHS or whatever. Some of my XL equiped mechs will be getting an Engine Refit as well, making them more durable. Then we have all the weapons coming out. Hell ER Medium Lasers are going to make a huge impact because your just going to be trading heat for more range which means virtually every IS mech I own is going to be getting a dramatic range increase come mid-July. I mean this is just scratching the surface when you consider things like Light PPCs, Light and Heavy Gauss, MRMs, etc.

So any advantage that Clans have over IS mechs is going to be at least reduced or more likely removed when these weapons and equipment drops and I wouldn't be surprised if we don't start finding IS mechs needing nerfs instead of Clan mechs.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 29 May 2017 - 08:19 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

OP clearly has no idea what he is talking about, another indicator that the tier rating is a farce.

[Jackal Noble]

Balance is pretty good.
Ppcs got nerfed across the board, but IS got hit a bit more. Clan suck because heat.
UAC5s suck in general.
SRMs are out in full force on both sides, thanks to ST.
But so are lrm....and campfishes and potatoes showed up enmasse to use them.

[Ajantise]

JackalBeast, on 29 May 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

OP clearly has no idea what he is talking about, another indicator that the tier rating is a farce.

You have read post 47#?
Please say it is not so! ;-)

ps. What does the tier has to with anything? I put my arguments clearly in post 47# You watch them, not my tier.

Edited by Ajantise, 29 May 2017 - 09:59 AM.

[Oberost]

Dakota1000, on 28 May 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

You can have speed, firepower, and tanking with an STD engine, its up to people to find the right builds for it.

Real definition for "Blatant lie"...

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Oberost, on 29 May 2017 - 11:11 AM, said:

Real definition for "Blatant lie"...

Come on, its even in my signature, even the Devs are giving the data showing it: https://mwomercs.com...l-tree-balance/

Just buy a Dragon, throw 3 LPL or 4 ERLL on it and have STD engine, firepower, speed, and tanking of an assault mech all in a 60 ton compact package.

[Marius Evander]

Ajantise, on 29 May 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

You are forgetting the:
1.More weapons slots
2.Indestructible side XL engine
3.More range
4.Two slots heat sinks (IS has 3)
5.More armor on side torso on majority of mechs
6.More AMS slots
7.Targeting computers
8.More damage on weapons

Please stop vomiting garbage.

Edited by Cadoazreal, 29 May 2017 - 02:20 PM.

[Ced Riggs]

Oberost, on 29 May 2017 - 11:11 AM, said:

Real definition for "Blatant lie"...

I did, doesn't match that statement, but it kind of matches pretty much 90% of what several IS fanatics are posting here.

[Ajantise]

Cadoazreal, on 29 May 2017 - 02:20 PM, said:

Please stop vomiting garbage.

2. So Clan does not have a side torrso XL engine that does not kill you when destroyed?
3. So Clan LL, ERLL, ERM, ERS dont have more range than IS LL, ERLL, ML, SL?
5. More armor on side torso (http://mwo.smurfy-net.de)
6. Please show me an IS mech that has 3 AMS? Clan has it.
8. Clan ER PPC and Lasers dont have more damage per shot than IS?

Edited by Ajantise, 29 May 2017 - 05:02 PM.

[Ced Riggs]

Ajantise, on 29 May 2017 - 04:42 PM, said:

2. So Clan does not have a side torrso XL engine that does not kill you when destroyed?
3. So Clan LL, ERLL, ERM, ERS dont have more range than IS LL, ERLL, ML, SL?
5. More armor on side torso (http://mwo.smurfy-net.de)
6. Please show me an IS mech that has 3 AMS? Clan has it.
8. Clan ER PPC and Lasers dont have more damage per shot than IS?

Okay, okay.

2. Clan XL engine is not indestructible. Most clan chassis can't zombie. Losing an ST is akin to death (40% heat penalty, major loss of mobility). Can't rock an STD and be fine like the IS. Furthermore, LFE will give you that same engine type, soon.

3. Clan have no LL, but I assume you mean LPL. IS ERLL and LPL, which have almost twice the damage per burntime compared to their clan equivalents, and with many baked in quirks have more range than the clan variants, right? For example, IS ERLL with 742,5m vs. Clan ERLL with 740m. While burning a lot shorter.

5. Compared a couple of IS and clan mechs across weight classes. Most IS mechs have baked in armor or structure, whereas clans do not, giving IS in almost all cases more armor than Clan, ST or otherwise. Which mech are you talking about? You only linked smurfy's, without a chassis.

6. Collated AMS/ECM carrying data IS vs. Clans:

• IS variants
  2 AMS: 24
  1 AMS/ECM: 17
  
• Clan Variants & Omni Configs:
  1 AMS/ECM: 4 (Cheetah, MAD-IIC D, HBR-Prime, Misty Linx)
  2 AMS: 3 (Lacerator, Summoner-D, Nova)
  3 AMS: 1 (Nova S)
  3 AMS/ECM: 1 (Kitfox)

If the IS is missing in AMS/ECM support, it's surely not because they cannot equip it. Clans have two mechs that can carry 3 AMS - two. One even is a very specific Omnipod configuration that has little wiggle room. The other is a slow support light. IS can slap 2 AMS on everyone and their grandmother, sharing the load.



8. As long as you look at values in a vacuum and not in application with their secondary values attached, you'll never understand anything. By your metric, the Gauss Rifle is the best weapon of the game, and SPL are wasted tonnage, because of "the damage per shot". Let's take the IS LPL, with almost 16 damage per second burn time, compared to the Clan LPL, with less than 10 damage per second burn time. Let's compare the damage per heat ratios. Or the fact that Clan weapons need to overcome between 15% to 25% more armor and structure than IS weapons.

Which is why I said: Lemme know what you patched to the current version of the game.

Edited by Ced Riggs, 29 May 2017 - 10:44 PM.

[Ajantise]

You have some good arguments there, but in real battles things get exploited.

You say that Clan has more burn time so damage cant be compared? But ALPHA strike is the game. With sniping in CW and in random, and good pilots who know to maximize the effect (to exploit) make it much worse

You get laser and ppc death stars, and your team loses fire superiority, and everybody hides and the effect is again multiplied. And when players see it is working, they all do it, and the effect is again multiplied...
In a competitive game like MWO even a small difference when stacked is very large.

If you have a 3 AMS mech you can be a solo support for the whole team. If IS has 2 AMS that cant by itself serve as a protection for the whole team and because of XL problem, everybody lacks tonnage. Nobody has it so the team is in the problem with LRM and you cant help because you play IS.

I thing that IS and Clan only random battles even for a day could show all this to anybody.

Let us try it, and see how may players opt for IS/Clan only random battles?
I think it would be very popular, because all IS players are sick of some things that are denied in the forums.
Everybody is saying all is OK, but you can see with your eyes that it is not.

Edited by Ajantise, 30 May 2017 - 01:41 AM.

[Ced Riggs]

For starters, recent stats posted by PGI (inb4 tinfoil) suggest that balance is getting closer and closer - and it shows in game, too. If you decide to ignore that, that's on you. I cannot argue against personal predisposition or the deliberate choice to ignore what's going on.

Moving right along, alpha vomits are about trading favourably. Clans trade harder, because with 1s++ burn times, you can't pop and burn, you need to expose longer. IS can burn much faster and apply their full alpha faster and trade better because of that, amplified by the increased protection they enjoy. I hope you are aware of that. It's much easier to twist from a 1.5s burn than from a sub 0.6s burn. Average complex reaction time is 300 to 400ms. In that time, most damage has already been applied by IS LPL, whereas clam beam weapon aren't even halfway there.

The XL advantage tonnage meme needs to die and is quite inane. You can easily drop armor from the arms, run torso weapons only, and match, if not ecplise clan mechs in hardpoints and weapons. For example, the Dragon 1C can dead side, run 4 IS LL, and twist like a ballerina, whilst having the armor of an assault, at 60 tons - burn times are 0.75 seconds there. The Summoner, at 70 tons, can't dead side, and while it twists comparably, is a much bigger target with less armor & structure. Oh, and with 2 cERPPCs, also deals less damage in total, half of it not pinpoint. Summoner brings 12 tons of weapon, compared to the 20 to 24 tons the Dragon brings. I can pull up more comparisions where IS has tonnage advantage without XL engines, on top of being able to deadside and in some cases, zombie.

As for AMS: So, you have identifed the Nova-S and the Kitfox as game/balance breakers. Those two mechs, classic overperformers and Tier 1 Metamechs, which ... you know, I can't even be sarcastic about it. IS has plenty of AMS carriers (see list above), and if you spread those AMS to two mechs, you have a,) more AMS and b,) redundancy and c,) better shielding and d,) less individual tonnage/slot devotion. A Kitfox or a Nova-S with three AMS gives up a lot to carry those systems.

We need to be fair with one another when we have these discussions. Appealing to emotion, appealing to grey masses, appealing to personal predisposition, appealing to blind faction loyalty will only skew the balance and make it worse, not better. For starters, mechs like the Pretty Baby need love, Victors and Vindicators need love, Cataphracts need love - not the IS side as a whole, but individual mechs are just plain bad or underperforming. Additionally, with the advent of energy rebalance and nutech, chances are things will shift even further towards IS side. Clans have been hammered with nerfs left and right, and the IS side complaints don't cease, like a knee jerk reaction to simply seeing a clam mech.

This needs to stop. Time to reset this twisted game.

Edited by Ced Riggs, 30 May 2017 - 01:59 AM.