259 replies to this topic

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Mcgral18, on 30 May 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

You don't balance by Potato
PGI has made that mistake repeatedly, and the results are obvious...rather poor balance

You need to remove Terribad from the equation, and use Robots to their limits to provide balance, not an LRM80 Gyr
That doesn't come anywhere near the potential of the mech


Their "controlled environments" are a far more reasonable place to test mechs, as opposed to Potato Land


Albeit, 4 VS4 would likely have different results than 12 Vs12

LRM60+A NTG-D is actually one of the best if not flat out best LRM boat Clan has (probably 5th best overall right now) is not something that can be thrown away as useless either. Decent players who understand the basics of the Game should be the ones looked at... do not get me wrong, there is a hardcore braintrust in the comp scene it just happens to be only a handful of guys. The amount of debates I get in with people who can not discern the very different environments between Solo & Group & CW Strategy/Tactics demonstrates that the vast majority of them only have a rote learned understanding. They do not know Why things are the best that they are advocating for since they are still advocating for them even when the Factors have changed dramatically in the equation. So... not Potatoes but not Comp either, or at least not exclusively comp (which is what it seems like PGI does listen to on the very rare occasions it listens at all.)

Otherwise you have people advocating for BLK being a "decent mech" because it can be used in one very specific manner under massed concentration conditions with people in high trust relationships with each other... absolutely none of which is applicable to +90% of the player population will ever be in. Even at its height last year before the dequirkening & rescale hits, it was not that great in Solo queue though it was absolutely wrecking face in CW... because of all the serious deficiencies I listed previously are highly pronounced in that environment while it can be played to the very few strong strengths it had in the other.

Again... when +90% of the player population is only ever going to play in "Potato Land" then that is the experience that is going to be one that attracts, builds, & retains any kind of player population. Potato Land & Comp are almost 2 different rulesets, they are much further apart than even say 3025 & 3063 are in tactical/build terms.

Edit: Just jumped in a match with the NTG-D LRM60+A and this is what I got... definitely not the result I would expect from a top tier IS LRM boat in this match but still quite good for a Clan LRM boat.

Edited by KekistanWillRiseAgain, 30 May 2017 - 06:18 PM.

[Mcgral18]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 30 May 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

Again... when +90% of the player population is only ever going to play in "Potato Land" then that is the experience that is going to be one that attracts, builds, & retains any kind of player population. Potato Land & Comp are almost 2 different rulesets, they are much further apart than even say 3025 & 3063 are in tactical/build terms.

They're the same robots

What can be abused at the top, can be abused by Potato

[cazidin]

Mcgral18, on 30 May 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

They're the same robots

What can be abused at the top, can be abused by Potato

Honestly, Mcgral, I think the Night Gyr will probably just lose it's quirks (at least the gauss and PPC ones, anyway) but how can they nerf the marauder IIC without breaking it? I also am concerned that the Black Knight, while apparently rare, will get a nerf.

[Gyrok]

Tarl Cabot, on 29 May 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

With the new tree, I do not see Battlemaster C2 performance changing much, if any, as it still relies on the cXL and mobility and a functional group environment. Post patch its had its energy range removed. accel/decel /turn rate removed. The only thing it kept is its Structural bonuses.

So, it has to make up what was lost in the base Skill Tree, the range/cooldown LPL modules, and radar dep/seismic modules. It can get part, but not all of that back, as well as boost the IS bonus some.

Remember, that setup only really shines in an ACTUAL group setting, not a pug setting, in that if you are the only battlemaster and everyone else has heavies, lights and LRMS shits, you are prim.... But that is the same with many mechs.. if no synergy, you are basically ******...

The agility quirks were rolled into the base values....it did not lose them. It might even be better, because you can run it without mobility tree at all, and it feels like a TW with full mobility.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Mcgral18, on 30 May 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

They're the same robots

What can be abused at the top, can be abused by Potato

See what I mean... what can be abused at the top BECAUSE of high trust relationships between players in pre-planned coordinated fashion is NOT what can even be witnessed besides watching a video of it for +90% of the player base (and it is highly unlikely that the vast majority of them would even watch videos about the game in that fashion.)

I laid out EXACTLY the what makes the huge amount of deficiencies the BLK suffers from in Solo Queue & its few strengths it had in its height last year in CW, how they are entirely different equations and yet here you are saying that all robots can be "abused" the same. Rote learning not any kind of fundamental understanding about the principles that make up the equation on full display... just because x+4=7 means that x=3 does not mean that x=3 in the x+4=8 equation. There are very different variables at work, as such they can not be answered in exactly the same manner... it is what makes most of the "meta" mechs at best not that good in Solo Queue, because they lack the ability to push a position and advance the game state in the mid-game of the match. If you get too much of them on your team then your team will generally lose to a similar overall skill level team opposing you with mid-range mechs that can push forward through the PPFLD that exists but is not everyone, then the DPS of those mechs falls off a cliff at shorter range trades and they just become victims.

Edited by KekistanWillRiseAgain, 30 May 2017 - 06:48 PM.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Gyrok, on 30 May 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

The agility quirks were rolled into the base values....it did not lose them. It might even be better, because you can run it without mobility tree at all, and it feels like a TW with full mobility.

It is clearly NOT the same since it had agility quirks AND skill bonuses, the desync also smashed it in that the x5 LPL XL engine build used a HUGE engine that gave it much higher movement profiles to work with even before the quirks and skills were added on top. Now you have less agility than before using the same large engine and need the full mobility tree to get LESS value than the previous skill system did. One of the main points of the Skill Maze that absolutely zero of defenders acknowledged and very few of those against pointed out was that the overall value was greatly reduced from the previous system because of the massive expansion of the Mech/Weapon Module combination into the Firepower Bush as well as the Auxiliary, Survival, JJ (though really who is silly enough to use that one) Bushes. You got a much more focused and therefore powerful result instead of squandering values across multiple smaller unfocused concetrations, even with massive focused allotment you will still end up with a worse version than you had before even if it is closer to the state it was originally in.

[Vxheous]

Mcgral18, on 30 May 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

They're the same robots

What can be abused at the top, can be abused by Potato

Potatoes cannot abuse the Night Gyr. They can't even shoot straight while standing still, you think they can fire jumpjets/crest a hill/acquire target while mid air/charge gauss/shoot along with PPC, and actually hit anything?

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 30 May 2017 - 08:10 PM.

[R Valentine]

You have it wrong. The KGC and the BK are underperformers. They said they were looking at extremes, not just over-performers.

[Johnny Z]

Grats to everyone involved with making the new tree. Amazing balancing on an epic scale.

[C E Dwyer]

Bit early to be considering a balance pass don't you think, surely you need more data, and then there are the new weapons to consider

It's nice to know your keeping tabs, but surely to change anything on such a small period is time is jumping the gun somewhat ?

[Kalleballe]

Would have had higher expectations, if first post was about steps taken to ensure collected data match experience of ppl actually playing the game.

[Nomad One]

Did Night Gyrs and Marauder IIC's not already get slammed by the nerf bat by giving them worse mobility than most other options?

They're built to be glass cannons, and the meta in the higher echelons of public and competetive gameplay is pin point front loaded damage. Two mechs that excel at that particular meta. What exactly is there left they can take off to appease the incompetent and the ignorant?

Reduce the set of 8 quirks on the Gyrs to be practically worth nothing? That only means people just further mix and match the omnipods to optimize them. They're not exactly major to begin with. 5-10% cooldown, 5-10% range, 10% velocity. Only the Jade Kite gets 25% velocity for ERPPCs, and that's it particular niche. Thats the only one that could possibly be dropped to 10-15% ERPPC velocity as part of the set of 8.

Further cripple their mobility? That just hits all other play styles for the chassis unfairly. Not to mention forces marauders to further front load their damage potential to smash their target without having to trade pokes too often, and forces night gyrs into poptart roles. Or worse, turns them into extremely niche long range turrets like the Dire Wolf...

You, PGI, intend to rework energy weapons already. Shouldn't it behoove you to do that and observe the changes for a month or two before you start slapping mechs with negative values like the TBR-A's left torso pod that make it just downright terrible to put on.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2017 - 09:13 PM, said:

You have it wrong. The KGC and the BK are underperformers.

That's a dangerous assumption (either for you or PGI) because the BK is actually fairly solid at what it does. Buffing it would potentially put into new OP territory.

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 30 May 2017 - 06:47 PM, said:

I laid out EXACTLY the what makes the huge amount of deficiencies the BLK suffers from in Solo Queue & its few strengths it had in its height last year in CW

And you also acted like those don't impact its performance in comp, which is actually wrong.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 31 May 2017 - 07:07 AM.

[kapusta11]

Yeah, using W/L ratio as a metric to determine mech performance is really bad. I think this is the real reason why some clan mechs overperform:

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

kapusta11, on 31 May 2017 - 08:26 AM, said:

Yeah, using W/L ratio as a metric to determine mech performance is really bad. I think this is the real reason why some clan mechs overperform:

Clan Crocodile Tears members are having a panic attack those could be real mechs!!!!! Just imagine if they did not have the best mechs in the game to prop up their over inflated sense of accomplishment by fighting on equal terms...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 31 May 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

Clan Crocodile Tears members are having a panic attack those could be real mechs!!!!! Just imagine if they did not have the best mechs in the game to prop up their over inflated sense of accomplishment by fighting on equal terms...

To be fair, if it wasn't for the MAD-IIC, the Clans would not really have options for assaults outside the Warhawk for niche situations. The Mauler and Battlemaster would once again take over the assault class.

[MadRover]

The MADIIC have the same glaring weaknesses just like pre patch. If the ignorant and the incompetent (those crying it's magically too much) don't want to take advantage of those weaknesses that's THEIR loss. Make them learn how to beat those mechs. Being noob friendly is not or never will be the way to go.

That's coming from a decent pilot who admits to making serious mistakes in the mech and watch getting steam rolled.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 May 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

To be fair, if it wasn't for the MAD-IIC, the Clans would not really have options for assaults

Soon to be no options for assaults then? Pretty sure the MAD-IIC is going to get hit with a train in the agility department.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 May 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

At this point I would say they are better.

Okay I will take your word for it. I've been riding the GHR-5P train mostly because better hardpoints and JJs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 31 May 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

Soon to be no options for assaults then? Pretty sure the MAD-IIC is going to get hit with a train in the agility department.

The Warhawk is good in certain situations, just not as many as the Wubmaster or Mauler.

[JessE JameZ]

You're new skill tree has me removing MWO from my PC so my 53 mechs can sit and rot for eternity on your servers. Since I can't even sell this account, my time playing MWO was a complete waste due to your latest ideas.