106 replies to this topic

[Coolant]

While I agree that the Skill Tree is not to blame for LRM's the fact that those that use LRM's do not even need to see a target is the issue. If you want to shoot LRM's at me, at least come out and face me where I can shoot back.

[Wintersdark]

Yeah, not a tax. No contradiction. My whole point is that you DON'T need AMS/etc. Just like you don't need all sorts of other things.

It's a tool you can choose to bring, at a trivial cost if your investing in Armor, or a very minor cost otherwise. Logistically, it's small and light.

It's very much an OPTION. Maybe you want more defense, or maybe another consumable.

But it isn't just one weapon system. It defends WELL again (S)SRM's as well, when damage boosted through the ST.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Novakaine, on 29 May 2017 - 07:27 PM, said:

ALL THE FUC.KING MISSLES!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pjwned]

MustrumRidcully, on 29 May 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:

That is true, however,if it was me,I'd roll these "special weapon skills" all together into one or two skills that buff all attributes unique to weapons.

Weapon Specialization: Spread Reduction (Missiles + LBX), U/AC Jam Reduction, Laser Duration, Velocity
Weapon Efficiency: Laser Duration, Extra Ammo, Extended Electronics Disruption*

The skill tree should leave no excuses behind for boating. It won't be enough, of course.

AMS could probably be also designed differently for "anti-boating". Give AMS an interception chance per missile entering range. If it doesn't proc, the missile will get through the AMS no question asked and no AMS projectiles wasted. Then still add a maximum threshold on how many missiles can be intercepted in a short time frame.
If the proc chance is 50 % per AMS and Missile, and the missiles intercepted per second is 20, then an LRM 40 or an LRM 60 boat would lose 20 missiles, and an LRM 20 boat would lose only 10. The result is that a smaller number of missiles is still viable as it can actually get through an AMS system (even through multiple, actually - 2 AMS would only lead to a total intercept chance of 75 %).

The AMS skill could keep raising the damage, so AMS can potentially counter 30 missiles from a 60 LRM boat, but it would still only intercept 5 missiles from an LRM 10 boat or 10 from an LRM 20 boat. The result is that missiles are more useful as a side weapon, and boating is somewhat less useful.


*) Something new for PPCs, more for fluff, but at least a reason to also consider this skill node.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm not too convinced that the firepower tree needs to be more compact, partly because having those nodes be more spread out allows for a lot more breathing room for proper balance, since currently PGI doesn't need to worry too much about 1-2 nodes being either too strong or not worth taking.

It seems for the most part fine to me as is.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Radar Deprivation was a huge balancing tool that used to be accessible to everyone with 6 million C-bills to spare and that 6 million C-bill module could be shared between 50, 100, 200, 400 or more different mechs. It also didn't gimp other aspects of your mech to mount it.

Now it costs 16 points and WILL absolutely gimp your mech in some way, form or fashion.

The straight truth is that LRMs felt very balanced when everyone had Radar Dep and they feel very unbalanced without it. Solution? Make Radar Dep cost like 3 - 5 point and be accessible at the top of the tree.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Viktor Drake, on 30 May 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Radar Deprivation was a huge balancing tool that used to be accessible to everyone with 6 million C-bills to spare and that 6 million C-bill module could be shared between 50, 100, 200, 400 or more different mechs. It also didn't gimp other aspects of your mech to mount it.

Now it costs 16 points and WILL absolutely gimp your mech in some way, form or fashion.

The straight truth is that LRMs felt very balanced when everyone had Radar Dep and they feel very unbalanced without it. Solution? Make Radar Dep cost like 3 - 5 point and be accessible at the top of the tree.

Everyone took Radar Derp because it was the best module. It should take a bit to unlock, as it is end-game content

[Revis Volek]

Viktor Drake, on 30 May 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Radar Deprivation was a huge balancing tool that used to be accessible to everyone with 6 million C-bills to spare and that 6 million C-bill module could be shared between 50, 100, 200, 400 or more different mechs. It also didn't gimp other aspects of your mech to mount it.

Now it costs 16 points and WILL absolutely gimp your mech in some way, form or fashion.

The straight truth is that LRMs felt very balanced when everyone had Radar Dep and they feel very unbalanced without it. Solution? Make Radar Dep cost like 3 - 5 point and be accessible at the top of the tree.

I will say, i agree that i dont agree with things like that being hidden behind nodes you wouldn't really need. Sensor tree being changed to just be straight lines of Seismic, Radar Derp, Decay, Range, etc i think would be a fine system and make everyone happy. I dont think all the trees need this layout but sensors should be a choose your adventure kinda thing IMO if that is where and how you want to invest those SP.

Prosperity Park, on 30 May 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

Everyone took Radar Derp because it was the best module. It should take a bit to unlock, as it is end-game content

Everyone took Seismic, Radar derp has always been secondary.

Edited by Revis Volek, 30 May 2017 - 01:36 PM.

[JohnnyWayne]

I'll refrain from complaining about LRM as weapon concept as they are not worth it. They are usually weapons for new players that pretend to be "helping" the team but cater towards a terrible and to the grounds bad playstyle (doing nothing on their own, no armor sharing). Others might use LRM differently but I described the baseline of LRM users.

Today on the other hand I experienced something that feld particularly off: The week before my teammates complained about ECM not working anymore even with skill points and I thought, well maybe a UAV was up or an enemy within 200 meters range.
Today the exactly same thing happened to me. Enemy showered me with LRM on polar, friend with ECM ran to me to cover me. Nothing happened. They just kept the rain going, no enemy within 200 meters no UAV up, yet LRMs no stop for at least 10-20 seconds. No NARC either btw, but that should be countered by ECM as well.

I came to the conclusion that ECM has to be somehow bugged. It doesn't provide lock cover anymore at times. Current LRMers abuse this bug.


Oh and as I read it, regarding radar dep: Skill nodes are not "end game" at all. There is no thing and actually there never was in MWO even if PGI pretended otherwise. Endgame is always gameplay wise, not some meta level equipment.
I don't really agree with the current implementation of radar dep especially combined with the placement of the ECM nodes, yet I am not dependent on it. As long as the systems around still work everything is ok-ish. From my perspective radar dep as well as target decay could go and it might even do everyone a favour.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 30 May 2017 - 02:18 PM.

[cazidin]

Oh no! PGI listened!

https://mwomercs.com...buffs-imminent/

*I am not legally responsible for this post or the thread that I linked here.

Edited by cazidin, 30 May 2017 - 02:14 PM.

[Mystere]

Ultimax, on 30 May 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

Players either need to invest/pay a tax or they don't. AMS is a build tax. Overload is a Tax.

Taxes are mandatory. Anti-LRM skills and equipment are not. Please stop using terrible analogies and hyperbole.

Viktor Drake, on 30 May 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Radar Deprivation was a huge balancing tool that used to be accessible to everyone with 6 million C-bills to spare and that 6 million C-bill module could be shared between 50, 100, 200, 400 or more different mechs. It also didn't gimp other aspects of your mech to mount it.

Now it costs 16 points and WILL absolutely gimp your mech in some way, form or fashion.

The straight truth is that LRMs felt very balanced when everyone had Radar Dep and they feel very unbalanced without it. Solution? Make Radar Dep cost like 3 - 5 point and be accessible at the top of the tree.

I highly doubt the unwashed masses would stop complaining even if that happened.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Mystere, on 30 May 2017 - 09:48 PM, said:

I highly doubt the unwashed masses would stop complaining even if that happened.

Of course the "unwashed masses" want Radar Deprivation to be easy to unlock; it's highly desirable. It's like asking for the best nodes to be the first to unlock.

PGI chose to make the better nodes cost heavy investment. It's like a "you get what you pay for" kind of thing, like most video games where the best stuff is saved for later in the chain.

The missile rack, High explosive, missile clustering.. those are not at the top of the firepower tree. What is? Range, the thing that was removed from LRMs by 10%.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 30 May 2017 - 10:00 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

I use the Radar Derp Nodes - but I really dislike them.
Why?
They remove the dorito - so this is primary a "anti communitcation and anti info warfare device" and only because of the ankward LRM mechanic an anti LRM device.

(on one hand it increases the survival rate of scouts on the other it totally negates their work too)

So its not good for balancing its bad bad bad and I feel bad in using it

Edited by Karl Streiger, 30 May 2017 - 10:48 PM.

[Pjwned]

Viktor Drake, on 30 May 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Radar Deprivation was a huge balancing tool that used to be accessible to everyone with 6 million C-bills to spare and that 6 million C-bill module could be shared between 50, 100, 200, 400 or more different mechs. It also didn't gimp other aspects of your mech to mount it.

Now it costs 16 points and WILL absolutely gimp your mech in some way, form or fashion.

The straight truth is that LRMs felt very balanced when everyone had Radar Dep and they feel very unbalanced without it. Solution? Make Radar Dep cost like 3 - 5 point and be accessible at the top of the tree.

If you needed to use radar deprivation as a crutch before the skill tree then the only answer is "git gud."

JohnnyWayne, on 30 May 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

I'll refrain from complaining about LRM as weapon concept as they are not worth it. They are usually weapons for new players that pretend to be "helping" the team but cater towards a terrible and to the grounds bad playstyle (doing nothing on their own, no armor sharing). Others might use LRM differently but I described the baseline of LRM users.

Today on the other hand I experienced something that feld particularly off: The week before my teammates complained about ECM not working anymore even with skill points and I thought, well maybe a UAV was up or an enemy within 200 meters range.
Today the exactly same thing happened to me. Enemy showered me with LRM on polar, friend with ECM ran to me to cover me. Nothing happened. They just kept the rain going, no enemy within 200 meters no UAV up, yet LRMs no stop for at least 10-20 seconds. No NARC either btw, but that should be countered by ECM as well.

I came to the conclusion that ECM has to be somehow bugged. It doesn't provide lock cover anymore at times. Current LRMers abuse this bug.

If you were being spotted by a TAG laser then that would have also negated the ECM, or it could've been something dumb like your friend was accidentally in counter mode instead of disrupt mode for ECM.

Also only bads have trouble with LRMs on polar whinelands.

Edited by Pjwned, 30 May 2017 - 11:30 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Viktor Drake, on 30 May 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Radar Deprivation was a huge balancing tool that used to be accessible to everyone with 6 million C-bills to spare and that 6 million C-bill module could be shared between 50, 100, 200, 400 or more different mechs. It also didn't gimp other aspects of your mech to mount it.

Now it costs 16 points and WILL absolutely gimp your mech in some way, form or fashion.

If it was truly gimping your mech, then you wouldn't take that Radar Depravation skill, would you? Because spending those points elsewhere would help you more, with or without LRMs around.

[Mystere]

Karl Streiger, on 30 May 2017 - 10:47 PM, said:

I use the Radar Derp Nodes - but I really dislike them.
Why?
They remove the dorito - so this is primary a "anti communitcation and anti info warfare device" and only because of the ankward LRM mechanic an anti LRM device.

(on one hand it increases the survival rate of scouts on the other it totally negates their work too)

So its not good for balancing its bad bad bad and I feel bad in using it

I absolutely love those things. In fact, we should have more stuff on the information warfare front that actually look like information warfare.

[R Valentine]

Viktor Drake, on 30 May 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Radar Deprivation was a huge balancing tool that used to be accessible to everyone with 6 million C-bills to spare and that 6 million C-bill module could be shared between 50, 100, 200, 400 or more different mechs. It also didn't gimp other aspects of your mech to mount it.

Now it costs 16 points and WILL absolutely gimp your mech in some way, form or fashion.

The straight truth is that LRMs felt very balanced when everyone had Radar Dep and they feel very unbalanced without it. Solution? Make Radar Dep cost like 3 - 5 point and be accessible at the top of the tree.

LRMs weren't balanced. They were straight garbage. They were something you ignored almost entirely. Now they actually have some impact on the game and everyone is up in arms. Sorry, but get gud. Oh noes, that one guy can hit you while you can't hit back! Well, when you get up in his face then you can hit him while he can't get back. So what's your excuse now? Your mech don't got legs?

[Ruar]

Kiran Yagami, on 31 May 2017 - 06:47 AM, said:

LRMs weren't balanced. They were straight garbage. They were something you ignored almost entirely. Now they actually have some impact on the game and everyone is up in arms. Sorry, but get gud. Oh noes, that one guy can hit you while you can't hit back! Well, when you get up in his face then you can hit him while he can't get back. So what's your excuse now? Your mech don't got legs?

Very narrow minded. Depending on the situation you might not be able to close the gap and do any damage to him. On the other hand he might not be able to put any effective damage on you the entire match.

One of the problems with LRMs is they are pretty much feast or famine. They do great or they do horrible, with almost no middle ground.

"gittin' gud" is just a silly retort. A good player can be turned to scrap by LRMs in the right circumstances. A good LRM player might not be able to do much an entire match. Telling people to git gud without explaining how they go about it is just a thinly veiled insult and adds nothing to the discussion.

[Asym]

Greetings!

Life isn't "fair" and warfare is just, out-right brutally, un-fair.

This about the skill tree change as an attempt at "being fair". To be fair, and keep the majority of players happy (assault and lights), PGI had to take from some classes of mech's and give to others....

They did this to change the micro-sales paradigms in anticipation to Civil War changes....

Civil War is a major paradigm shift. Civil War is an attempt to change MWO into a 2 dimensional warfare platform. In 2D, logistics/mass becomes the driver and manuever is relagated to the back of the bus.... Why? Because a simpler 2D platform brings in more players who don't have to think!!!! See the enemy, walk to it and blast it to bits!!! Them with the most wins.....

LRM's are 3D weapons systems and are a decisive combat multiplier.... Artillery is the king of the battlefield for a reason and in-direct fire is what makes modern warfare 3D and not linear...... Indirecrt fire and smart weapons are Asymmetrical influencers..... They create a 3D battlespace and command and control becomes "intuitive" not process driven.

Food for thought

[Felicitatem Parco]

Kiran Yagami, on 31 May 2017 - 06:47 AM, said:

LRMs weren't balanced. They were straight garbage. They were something you ignored almost entirely. Now they actually have some impact on the game and everyone is up in arms. Sorry, but get gud. Oh noes, that one guy can hit you while you can't hit back! Well, when you get up in his face then you can hit him while he can't get back. So what's your excuse now? Your mech don't got legs?

Um, no... The Skill Tree did not elevate the effectiveness of LRMs significantly... Unless you think that 15% extra critical damage when they hit a component that had no armor and the RNG Gods gve you a critical hit makes the difference between "bad" and "good" weapons systems. The missile clustering has minimal impact because LRM 20 with TAG and Artemis and Missile Cluster nodes will still miss some missiles when fired at stationary targets.

No, the Skill Tree just made people interested in using LRMs again, which has lead to an increase in deployment rates.

Sorry, but *you all* need to stop blaming the Skill Tree for the increase in LRM usage. You need to just accept that fact that here are more LRMs on their field. If if you want to blame the skill tree, then you can only do that if you already have AMS overload unlocked, Radar Derp Unlocked, and have AMS mounted. If you do not have those 3 things, then you need to stop blaming the skill tree and start blaming your "tactical choices."

Edited by Prosperity Park, 31 May 2017 - 08:45 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Some people are just not smart enough to know that you can now mount AMS overload without losing a "weapon module slot." Get with the program - the Skill Tree lets you protect yourself from LRMs more easily than ever.

You can mount Radar Derp and Seismic, AND also other sensor packs like Sensor Range, Target Retention, Target Info Gathering. You could not do this before. The Skill Tree has set you free to protect yourself from LRMs.

So stop whining and Learn To Skill (LTS)

Edited by Prosperity Park, 31 May 2017 - 08:50 AM.