89 replies to this topic

[Old-dirty B]

No

[R Valentine]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 May 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

So basically larger versions of the smaller ER lasers........there is a reason the dynamic between standard lasers and pulse needs to change, and it is because of redundancy. Honestly I would even be cool with the roles being swapped with pulse being the accurate one hit weapons while standard lasers be DPS oriented, but something has to change.

I guess you missed the part where I said they're the "opposite" of ER lasers. ER lasers are medium damage, high heat, long range. Pulse lasers medium heat, high damage, short range. They aren't redundant at all, especially not in MWO where ER lasers have obnoxious burn times. Hell, the clan ERLL isn't even usable. It's like a direct fire LRM launcher. Unless the enemy is AFK or disconnected, you can't control where that damage lands. So no, they aren't redundant. Maybe if lasers worked like they did in MW4 they would be, which is likely why pulse lasers in MW4 were they way they were, but they aren't here. Duration makes all the difference in the world.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

I guess you missed the part where I said they're the "opposite" of ER lasers.

I guess you missed the part where ER lasers scale in weight and range.
2 iERML WILL compete with iLPL given they have a similar range profile. iERSL WILL compete with iMPLs given they have a similar range profile. Which ever has the best stats will end up being the better weapon (which currently I have no doubt it will be pulse).

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

Duration makes all the difference in the world.

Yes, it makes some weapons never taken because they are trying to have a balancing mechanism for weapons that are competing for the same role that ends up failing.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 May 2017 - 08:06 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

El Bandito, on 30 May 2017 - 03:39 AM, said:

Current Pulse lasers are potent enough, so no need to reinvent the wheel, IMO. I did like MW3 pulse lasers, where you can hold the trigger and keep on streaming.

A kind of "high-face-time" laser? I like that. Simply because there are too many (close to) pinpoint damage weapons in the game

[Mister Blastman]

The only way this would work is to double the dps and halve the heat (exaggerating to make a point).

But why, Blastman? That's crazy!
Think about it. Regular lasers = can use cover to survive. DPS pulse lasers? Nope.

So there must be a tradeoff, something to encourage wielders to take the risk of losing their cover, and a big reward for doing so.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 30 May 2017 - 08:06 AM.

[CuriousCabbitBlue]

yes just so I can make Ghost Busters puns about crossing the streams

[R Valentine]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 May 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

I guess you missed the part where ER lasers scale in weight and range.
2 iERML WILL compete with iLPL given they have a similar range profile. iERSL WILL compete with iMPLs given they have a similar range profile. Which ever has the best stats will end up being the better weapon (which currently I have no doubt it will be pulse).

We don't even have iERMLs. Even if when we do, iERMLs will never replace LPLs. 1 LPL generates less heat than 2 ERML, I would never take 2 of those over 1 LPL. They may be lighter, but even regular medium lasers are just filler weapons that you only take when you can't fit anymore LPLs. Medium laser duration is already longer than LPL duration, so ERML will be longer still. ERMLs will never come close to LPLs in MWO. Not in a million years.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 May 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

Yes, it makes some weapons never taken because they are trying to have a balancing mechanism for weapons that are competing for the same role that ends up failing.

The weapons are never taken because they're bad. I don't take cLPLs because cERLLs do the same thing. I take cLPLs because cERLLs are garbage. If you remade cLPLs I wouldn't suddenly have a burning desire to fit cERLLs. I'd just take cERMLs instead and lament my lost, better weapons. I might not even play laser vomit at all, really, because some mechs don't have enough hard points to replace every cLPL with 2 cERMLs or the weight to add all those extra heat sinks, and cERLMs still have a substantially shorter range than cLPLs. One will never replace the other. You'd have to remake all lasers in their entirety to do what you want to do, which is essentially turning MWO lasers into MW4 lasers. That will never happen.

Edited by Kiran Yagami, 30 May 2017 - 08:12 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

CuriousCabbitBlue, on 30 May 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

yes just so I can make Ghost Busters puns about crossing the streams

Look at my location of my avatar

Disclaimer: I had it long before this thread!

Edited by Bush Hopper, 30 May 2017 - 08:17 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

We don't even have iERMLs. Even if when we do, iERMLs will never replace LPLs. ERMLs will never come close to LPLs in MWO. Not in a million years.

We will have them in a month or so, and that last little tidbit is my point. ERMLs are absolutely pointless in MWO because LPLs are just better on a majority of mechs (hint the reason is because they compete for the same role despite having different durations).

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

The weapons are never taken because they're bad. I take cLPLs because cERLLs are garbage.

And why do you think they are bad?

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

I don't take cLPLs because cERLLs do the same thing.

That's only because cLPLs got nerfed hard with the max range reduction (2.0 -> 1.4) because before that while they didn't compete with iERLL quite as well at 1200+, up to that point they were fairly potent. That said, you are comparing at the most drastic end of the spectrum. cMPL vs cERML has less contrast and cSPL vs cERSL is definitely a crap comparison. Don't forget the Clans eventually get ER pulse lasers too (though not in the civil war update sadly.

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

If you remade cLPLs I wouldn't suddenly have a burning desire to fit cERLLs.

While true, again, you are looking at the end of the spectrum with the most contrast, and where did I say standard lasers shouldn't be buffed if pulse is changed? For the most part, pulse are just better weapons, if they are changed then standard lasers need to be buffed to fill the vacuum.

[Gwahlur]

Confusing use of terminology in this thread.
DPS weapon = damage per second weapon. How aren't all weapons already DPS weapons? (They are...)

[R Valentine]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 May 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

We will have them in a month or so, and that last little tidbit is my point. ERMLs are absolutely pointless in MWO because LPLs are just better on a majority of mechs (hint the reason is because they compete for the same role despite having different durations).


And why do you think they are bad?


That's only because cLPLs got nerfed hard with the max range reduction (2.0 -> 1.4) because before that while they didn't compete with iERLL quite as well at 1200+, up to that point they were fairly potent. That said, you are comparing at the most drastic end of the spectrum. cMPL vs cERML has less contrast and cSPL vs cERSL is definitely a crap comparison. Don't forget the Clans eventually get ER pulse lasers too (though not in the civil war update sadly.


While true, again, you are looking at the end of the spectrum with the most contrast, and where did I say standard lasers shouldn't be buffed if pulse is changed? For the most part, pulse are just better weapons, if they are changed then standard lasers need to be buffed to fill the vacuum.

Even if we did buff cERLLs to compensate and make them good, I don't think DPS pulse lasers would ever be good in MWO. The game is too PPFLD centric. Clan pulse lasers get by because they do obnoxious damage. A cLPL does 13 damage, which is 30% more than it does in table top, while only generating 10 heat. They had a massive damage buff just to offset their duration. IS LPLs have a very low duration, so they're pretty close to PPFLD. Gauss and PPC are still king. Having to stay exposed on target for 3, 4, or 5 trigger pulls just means every sniper on the map is going to unload his damage into your torso and kill you. You'll never be able to stay on target long enough to inflict more damage than you receive. Even in MW4, pulse lasers weren't used all that much because high damage, one click ER lasers were better.

[fat4eyes]

Lights need their high burst assassin weapon, you can't make all pulse lasers high face time dps. Now if pulse lasers had a mode where you can choose high facetime, lower heat but higher sustained dps there might be a niche for that on support brawler mediums (i.e. mediums that escort bigger brawlers to do additional damage), but even that is iffy because staring too long at 60+ alpha SRM boats is suicide.

[cazidin]

I think the only people who vote yes are either misguided, and I can hardly blame them, or they don't like that MPL and LPL are... good weapons. Why would you want to nerf good weapons or mechs? Because you work for PGI.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

The game is too PPFLD centric.

That hasn't always been the case, or did you miss the dakka meta before the Kodiak dropped? The only reason it has ever been PPFLD centric is because PGI has never understood how much DPS weapons need to overcome PPFLD.

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

Clan pulse lasers get by because they do obnoxious damage. A cLPL does 13 damage, which is 30% more than it does in table top, while only generating 10 heat. They had a massive damage buff just to offset their duration. IS LPLs have a very low duration, so they're pretty close to PPFLD. Gauss and PPC are still king.

Again, Gauss and PPC haven't always been king, well, PPC's haven't always been king. Before the rebalance, PPCs really weren't a thing and it was all lasers and Gauss.

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

Having to stay exposed on target for 3, 4, or 5 trigger pulls just means every sniper on the map is going to unload his damage into your torso and kill you.

Except that is less of an issue if you can push. The meta isn't really that sniper heavy currently, it is actually all about pushing and shoving damage down people's throats with a couple of overwatch mechs (generally Night Gyrs because they have solid DPS even against pushes).

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

Even in MW4, pulse lasers weren't used all that much because high damage, one click ER lasers were better.

Yep, you are correct, but one click ER lasers were practically better than everything in that game so that's not really saying much nor does that magically invalidate the idea.

cazidin, on 30 May 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

or they don't like that MPL and LPL are... good weapons. Why would you want to nerf good weapons or mechs? Because you work for PGI.

What if the goal was to make standard lasers DPS oriented and leave pulse as is? The whole point is to prevent them from competing for the same role, not nerf good weapons.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 May 2017 - 09:00 AM.

[cazidin]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 May 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

What if the goal was to make standard lasers DPS oriented and leave pulse as is? The whole point is to prevent them from competing for the same role, not nerf good weapons.

Hmm... I'm not sure about that, either. The IS lasers are fine as they are, even the large Laser now is OK because you can use skills to get the necessary laser duration for it. Pulses are typically chosen for the DPS role, short burn, short CD, etc is because... well, they already have the short burn. Standard lasers couldn't do that unless you made them like machine guns and could hold onto your target - but that just raises new questions which are more difficult to answer.

I'm fine with leaving these two lasers as they are, with some minor tweaks to buff or nerf them appropriately. I don't trust PGI, or really, most companies to "reinvent the wheel" or heavily alter something that already works. I'm OK with and even encourage change but they just too often fail at making POSITIVE change.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cazidin, on 30 May 2017 - 09:05 AM, said:

The IS lasers are fine as they are, even the large Laser now is OK because you can use skills to get the necessary laser duration for it.

No, it really isn't, there is no reason to run the iLL over LPLs or ERLLs currently. Honestly for the range it is meant for I'd rather use an AWS-8Q or something quirked for PPCs and run PPC spam over LL spam. It is not in a good place and hasn't been for a long time. The only reason it got run a lot before on things like the Wolverine, Stalker, and Enforcer is because they had quirks specific for iLLs.

cazidin, on 30 May 2017 - 09:05 AM, said:

Pulses are typically chosen for the DPS role, short burn, short CD, etc is because... well, they already have the short burn.

That makes ZERO sense. AC5s are a DPS weapon, they have low damage per shot and a very short cooldown. The difference between cooldown of pulse and standard lasers is negligible and the fact they have more damage per shot (on top of being more concentrated due to low duration) makes them more like Gauss/PPC than AC5s.

[cazidin]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 May 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

No, it really isn't, there is no reason to run the iLL over LPLs or ERLLs currently. Honestly for the range it is meant for I'd rather use an AWS-8Q or something quirked for PPCs and run PPC spam over LL spam. It is not in a good place and hasn't been for a long time. The only reason it got run a lot before on things like the Wolverine, Stalker, and Enforcer is because they had quirks specific for iLLs.


That makes ZERO sense. AC5s are a DPS weapon, they have low damage per shot and a very short cooldown. The difference between cooldown of pulse and standard lasers is negligible and the fact they have more damage per shot (on top of being more concentrated due to low duration) makes them more like Gauss/PPC than AC5s.

I think you misunderstood a few things. I didn't say that the IS Large Laser is a great weapon or (usually) chosen over the LPL or ER-LL, just that it's in a better place right now because of the skill tree. Really, though, you could say that about all lasers - but I mention the Large Laser specifically because there seemed to have been a consensus on these forums that it would've been an OK, maybe even above average weapon if not for the 1 second beam duration. You'd see the IS LL taken a lot more frequently on mechs with duration quirks, and I've personally seen them taken a lot more frequently of late - but that could just be due to experimentation.

Also. I meant that Pulse Lasers are targeted to be CHANGED into DPS weapons BECAUSE, right now, they have 1/2 of the requirements to match your AC/5 comparison. They have the short, almost pinpoint beam duration, which standard lasers do NOT.

If you want to lower pulse laser CD by 0.5-1 second each? That'd be something interesting but to make them operate like MW4? I'm opposed to that.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cazidin, on 30 May 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

I think you misunderstood a few things. I didn't say that the IS Large Laser is a great weapon or (usually) chosen over the LPL or ER-LL, just that it's in a better place right now because of the skill tree.

It really isn't because both its counterparts got better (range buffs to the LPL are glorious, and the iERLL benefits even more from the duration quirks than the LL did).

cazidin, on 30 May 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

Also. I meant that Pulse Lasers are targeted to be CHANGED into DPS weapons BECAUSE, right now, they have 1/2 of the requirements to match your AC/5 comparison. They have the short, almost pinpoint beam duration, which standard lasers do NOT.

They really don't, they have a slightly lowered recycle tiems compared to normal lasers because of the difference in duration, that's it. Generally DPS weapons have much more contrast than less than half a second (and they generally don't do more upfront damage than their alpha oriented counterparts).

cazidin, on 30 May 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

If you want to lower pulse laser CD by 0.5-1 second each?

It won't change them any, it would also just make them that much better than the standard counterparts which they regularly beat to begin with.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 May 2017 - 09:39 AM.

[CuriousCabbitBlue]

[cazidin]

CuriousCabbitBlue, on 30 May 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

Don't cross the streams! You'll generate too much ghost heat!