61 replies to this topic

[Kaptain]

Rogue Jedi, on 31 May 2017 - 12:54 AM, said:

yes, IS ERPPCs can do the same damage at the same range, slightly cooler (for the same number of DHS), but at the cost of another 4 tons, I should have, and (incorrectly) thaught I had, also asked for same tonage.
sorry

and 4 additional slots.

[Guile Votoms]

"Let's give the most meta weapon a 50% damage boost!"

Ok ...?

[Reno Blade]

We are facing high damage PPFLD and Laser vomit (some degree SRM vomit) which makes for VERY fast kills.

IMHO, 7 seconds for an assault mech is WAY TOO FAST.
Battles should last for more than mere seconds, the mechs should be surviving longer not die faster!


Of course you will not brawl with PPCs, you use Pulse/Laser or SRM for brawling.
If your "Boat" is not doing well in all ranges, you change the loadout to have other weapons (e.g. LRM only fail boat can't defend in min range).

TBH, PPCs were/are very strong by focusing single components, but lasers can do the same if the target is not twisting enough.
And both weapons are very good syncing with Gauss (because of low heat and high velocity).

To reduce the kill speed, I suggest to use MORE spread (depending on range) and also reduce efficiency of laser class (20-50% longer burn times).

One suggestion for PPCs was this, which would reduce their direct damage output.
Note: it was also taking in mind the possibility to fire these weapons without/higher Ghost heat.

Reno Blade, on 30 May 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

Adding the PPC splash graphs.

I've tried to make each PPC unique and make HPPC a mix of multiple profiles that is worth taking over combining any of the other PPCs (e.g. LPPCs with PPCs).

PPC / LPPC


ERPPC / SNPPC


CERPPC / HPPC


PPCs are great for mid-long range and have 0 dmg min range
LPPCs have constant ratio and 0 dmg min range (so they are less efficient on mid-long range)
ERPPCs have highest direct damage (100%) on long-extreme only and have high splash on shorter range
CERPPCs is using increasing direct damage, but has good averages
HPPCs have some splash at min range, but get high direct damage overall (more than combinations of other types)
SNPPCs start with high direct damage but drop off quickly and also have a shorter range and damage drop

[Arugela]

Here is the same build but with LPL: SNV-3LPL: https://tarogato-mwo...4c-2518aee41690

This build does:(fireing 4x LPL in groups of x2 for not ghost heat.)

1. 52 damage for 36.2 heat 0 seconds 52
2. 52 damage for 36.2 heat 2.9 seconds 104
3 52 damage for 36.2 heat 5.8 seconds 156 (functionally out of heat...

Maybe it would help if they gave clan a shorter ranged PPC... Besides LPL being basically it. 8) What about a micro PPC. ><

1 slot 3 tons 5 damage(Possibly with 1x2.5 split chance) or 7.5 damage. Half the range. Half heat! Not sure on the CD. 8d

Or give it 1 slot, 3 tons, 5 damage, half range(405-810), half heat(7), 2-2.25 Cd like the SL and Micro pulse laser! ><

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Light_PPC

That sounds like a clan version of this...

C-MicroPPC:
Slots: 1
tons: 3
Damage: 5(Pinpoint only)
Heat: 7
CD: 2-3
Range: 410-810
Max fire: 2 or 3

Edited by Arugela, 31 May 2017 - 01:55 PM.

[Metus regem]

No?

When you get right down to it, the cERPPC is 6t and 2 crits, compare this to the soon to be arriving HPPC for the IS at 10t and 4 crits!

cERPPC
Tons: 6
Crits: 2
Optima Range: 810m
Minimum range: 0
Heat: 14
Damage: 2.5/10/2.5
Velocity: 1300m/s

IS HPPC
Tons: 10
Crits: 4
Optimal Range: 540m
Minimum Range: 90m
Heat: 15
Damage: 15
Velocity: 1000-1200 m/s (estimation)


Just looking at those weapons side by side, the cERPPC is already boasting a -40% weight advantage, a -50% crit slot requirement (not counting the 33% smaller DHS of cDHS), a 50% greater optimal range with no minimum range dead zone and finally a 8-30% likely faster base velocity.

Now don't get me wrong, my Timber Wolf and Warhawk would both love true 15 PPFLD on their cERPPC, but I am not foolish enough to think that it would be balanced in the slightest with the up coming HPPC.... And on that note, the HPPC needs to retain it's full 15 PPFLD to be viable.




EDIT:

Formatting issues.....

Edited by Metus regem, 31 May 2017 - 02:05 PM.

[Nightbird]

Well, we can double lore structure and armor (again) lol higher TTK for sure

[Arugela]

The other reason I think the ERPPC might be approrpriate at 15 damage is the accuracy Issue. At it's range and velocity it's not as likely to be pinpoint accurate to start with. In an active battle, outside of stupid players, it should be hard at longer ranges to hit accurately. This helps make those scattered shots do a little more damage.

The only part the Pinpoint nature helps is at closer ranges. At which it's needed to take on other assaults because of the realities of it's heat bar.

The other similar one is closer range, again, JJ attacks. Which it needs to have the possibility to do good damage on an accurate attack. Realistically you will go from accurate to misses.(in terms of which section you hit. Not as in missing the mech entirely.)

This also affect unit composition. 40 damage makes it take too little ability per assault mech. And I think other PPC clan mechs can't set this setup up as well or have similar weakneses. Or if they can they have better things to do and are wasting time on Quad PPC. Unlike the supernova.

It would allow supernova PPC builds to make the supernova be the nasty mech it should be. This is the single setup quad C-ERPPC is worth putting on basically. All other Clan assault(and heavy) mechs have better designs and should not do this. And from what I can tell the Clan Heavies can't afford Qaud PPC, sufficient DHS, and armor!

EbonJaquar: You can do this. But you are totally naked. And no other clan mech makes it worthwhile besides Supernova and possibly Direwolf or Kodiak. And there are much better things to do with them. Even if the Direwolf is on par it would be appropriate for the Direwolf to kill in the time it takes at 15 damage. It would be necessary. It is no different for the Supernova. It is an assault mech. Nothing else can boat this combo in an efficient manner. And, again, the Direwolf can fit a better combo. All other ERPPC mechs combos use less ERPPC and take much longer to dish it out damage. Most would use 2-3 PPC at max. And most would only want to use 2 to max out DHS and get a secondary weapon. Even the Heavies. So, to put it bluntly, the Clan mechs are already designed to balance this out.

Like I said the x4 LPL Supernova version can do 156 damage in the same setup. The x4 PPC can only do 80... That is half. 120 would be on par with further restrictions from heat etc. The supernova is not agile. And probably less so now. It has lots of natural balances. As do other Clan assault mechs.

If you want to see a comparitive Clan assault. My kodiaks all minimally do 88 Alphas. The big one do 100-125 alpha. And my direwolf Does 140 Alpha with no ghost heat. This is what a comparative Clan assault mech can do. This does similar damage at 15 per ppc, but takes much longer.

Edited by Arugela, 31 May 2017 - 11:49 PM.

[Metus regem]

Arugela, on 31 May 2017 - 04:20 PM, said:

The other reason I think the ERPPC might be approrpriate at 15 damage is the accuracy Issue. At it's range and velocity it's not as likely to be pinpoint accurate to start with. In an active battle, outside of stupid players, it should be hard at longer ranges to hit accurately. This helps make those scattered shots do a little more damage.

The only part the Pinpoint nature helps is at closer ranges. At which it's needed to take on other assaults because of the realities of it's heat bar.

The other similar one is closer range, again, JJ attacks. Which it needs to have the possibility to do good damage on an accurate attack. Realistically you will go from accurate to misses.(in terms of which section you hit. Not as in missing the mech entirely.)

This also affect unit composition. 40 damage makes it take too little ability per assault mech. And I think other PPC clan mechs can't set this setup up as well or have similar weakneses. Or they do it in uniqe ways.

It would allow supernova PPC builds to make the supernova be the nasty mech it should be.

Like I said the x4 LPL version can do 156 damage in the same setup. The x4 PPC can only do 80... That is half. 120 would be on par with further restrictions from heat etc. The supernova is not agile. And probably less so now. It has lots of natural balances. As do other Clan assault mechs.

Do keep in mind that, that 156 can be mitigated by twisting your torso to spread that damage around, meaning that "80" points of damage is actually better at killing your target as it cannot be mitigated by twisting.

[Arugela]

That may be true but it's mitigated in a different way. By twisting not allowing you to place the shot as easily as the range increases. I Still think the damage is needed for balance.

And as I'm showing, and finding out, the supernova is the only clan mech where this Quad ERPPC build is feasible. The rest can't boat DHS correctly or have more efficient combos and still can't place stuff because of all the limitation on Omni mechs to fibrous and endo. The clan mechs are naturally limited to quad PPC's applications. So it removes the problem with more agile mechs tearing things apart with higher damage values on the ERRPPC. Which again is only useful at a minimum of 15 pinpoint damage because of heat. Both in my builds and max potential heat for clan in the game.

One mech I thought of was the Linebacker. But it can only fit like 17 DH because of it's limits. It would get swarmed and killed pretty quick.

And as it takes minimum 25 DHS at max skill tree bonuses to fire 2 quad rounds(120 Damage) of C-ERPPC. Nothing less can or should to do it. I would have to look into triple PPC in that case and I still don't think any or many clan mechs can do this without wasting space of the DHS literally grinding it to a halt and making it unfeasible.

Even IS mechs are very limited in what can run PPC and ERPPC effectively in the location you want. This would be an issues if every mech could run it where it would get the full 120 shots off. But very few can. If it can't it's only feasible to run it at lower amount of PPC which would be 2 PPC's and other weapons... Or you are wasting mechs and literally gimping yourself in combat.

And the 120 damage from Quad C-ERPPC is not 1x120 or 2x60. It's 4x30. You have to get each shot in correctly. So, that is natural mitigation. Just from a different source. It's on par with twisting. The reality of being at range creates this. And anything closer has an advantage in every other way unless it is another PPC boat. And if weapon placement in the 2x combo are far enough away it may mitigate the two shots from twisting also. Meaning your 2x15 shot may be able to land on different spots given geometry, twisting speed, and other mech characteristics. So that is up to 8x15 mitigation. That is very good mitigation.

And as I said, if you can't fit quad PPC and 25 DHS with full skill tree heat management.(full Weapon and operation tree!!!) There is no point in anything but Double C-ERPPC. You literally can't use more because if you try to space the attacks you can either fire the same double PPC's, with more DHS and less wait time, in the time it takes to get more heat with quad, or you can fire a single shot of your current PPC! Unless there is a case situation I'm missing...

Every other problem on Clan side seems to be already balanced by mech designs. Especially the abundance of Omnis which severely limit the potential of Quad PPC builds like this.

I think another issue is tonnage to damage. It is important for the assault mechs to have the correct potential DPS and fire abilities. without them they do not work in one way or another and it makes them usefulness. This Supernova is the case where ERPPC is a normal weapon and concentrated. And the no pinpoint damage mitigates the proper values for it to be balance correctly and sufficient potentially for the group and group dynamics. which have to take into account worst case scenarios as far as TTK and enemy rushes and how fast you can do X to stop or slow them down. I think most of the things people are thinking about are things they need to and can find things to work around. And it isn't common at this point because it has never had 15 full damage or hasn't most of the game. throwing off what people are used to dealing with. This leads to not fully utilizing mechs capabilities and throws off the game in multiple ways.

Clan heavy example:

MDD Clan heavy

Clan heavies can boat up to 3 ppcs. this means they can do 30 damage in 3 volleys. This gets them to 90 damage. You can also do 3 PPC on heavies. But many clan mechs are omnis and setup so this cannot be done without wasting a heavy amount of slots or weight making this not efficient for the mech. If it was 15 damage it could do 2 volleys of 45 and then start hitting structure if it doesn't miss. Or it has a little room for error. So, 90+ lasers or 135 after volleys. This would give it better function as a heavy, assuming this build could boat side lasers with it. You wold have to actually find a clan heavy that can do this and not have extra slots for a better build layout. As they are all more efficient.

ON1-IIC

This is as close as you can get. And you have to sacrifice everything. Minium of 24 DHS with max heat skills and no quirks. Being quirks are small on Clan it will not help much.

AS far as I can tell. No clan heavy can properly boat 3 C-ERPPC properly and use the remaining weapons/stats for max efficiency. it's either dual C-ERPPC, or single, which can be infinitely fired at 18 or 20 DHS depending on skills.

The equivalent Supernova is clunky or must sacrifice JJ's to do so. So, it is not designed for this. And takes a minimum of 27 DHS with full skill tree support.(Weapons and Operation tree heat skills.) I'm pretty sure, from MWO's standpoint, it was not meant for this.

And still very few clan mechs if not only a few are good at and designed for ERPPC use in any form in MWO. At least not in larger numbers. Mostly because of Omnimechs and hardpoints. In fact so far the only one is literally the Supernova. And it is designed for 4 or 2 PPC's potentially. But 4 are infeasible with 10 damage. And 15 only gives the other builds more versatility while making 4 PPC in it's only build possibility feasible for what it needs to do. The 4 PPC combo should be viable.

If no one has noticed, most Clan builds are forced towards smaller weapons. they cannot easily use Large tonnage/slot ratio weapons like the PPC. This stops PPC larger damage from having the potential of going out of control. Any mech you could be worried about can't boat it at all or can't in a way that your team shouldn't kick you out for using. That or you will be outdone by a mech with a more efficient setup for it's chassis/hardpoints. I always ran into this with my PPC Supernova builds because they are not of sufficient stats to be usable. But it should be on the supernova which makes this a real shame. It really needs the great than 1.0 15/14 damage/heat ratio.

Edited by Arugela, 31 May 2017 - 07:57 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Can you summarize all your arguments for a change in one or two sentences.
Then what would you pay for 15. Finally what is the main argument against 15dmg ppcs.
Please consider all builds (Koshi, Shadow Cat, Ebon...)

[Arugela]

The balance for the shadow hawk is the fact that if you boat 2 PPC's it's too hot to not get overrun in an ideal environment. (Where it should be balance from.) If you drop to one and use other weapons you are much more versatile to the team and can defend yourself better. Or else you will run out of heat and give the enemy time to move forward and or retaliate without having done sufficient damage.. That weapon choice would leave massive gaps.

You need multiple weapons so you can do more than just fire range. The mechs natural design forces this because if you are inefficient someone else won't be and they cna take you down. Or as a group they will simultaneously be better because of how heat works to weapon fire when you get deeper into it. The game is designed for force layouts where you can fire x time then use x weapon. It's naturally balanced for the most part.

The reason teh 15 damage is needed it because it is important for the Supernova as it is one of the builds it can naturally hold. It needs that damage amount showing what the weapon damage should be ideally. with 10 damage you are stuck with their ERPPC builds playing how the nova should. Instead of having slightly better offhand weapon perfomance to go with it.

The duel PPC heavy should fire two 45 damage attacks then side arms for range. It now has to expend all 3 attacks to get 90. Then it could otherwise choose to do a third 45 heat attack for 135 damage or use the more efficient side weapons. This allows the Heavy the versatility of hitting one target and then going to the next better. The assault is and should be stuck at maxing out heat to core. with PPC's. Then he waits for side weapons in this case.

That would give the Heavy duel ppc focused mech the option of also coreing an assault. Which is what a heavy should do. It then gets to barely knick the structure. This is balanced because the heavy should be able to do that. although slower than the assault. That is how it balances out. The Assault can more quickly harm the heavy. Either via greater accuracy or using teamwork. The heavy can take on a larger target. like an assault. But this also only work at ideal circumstances. Perfect accuracy, maxed out skills(very heavy focus in it), and at closer range. Or else it must do less damage overall and choose a new strategy. But it does get more damage off. From what I've played C-ERPPC's are very underpowered.

I don't really know how to put it simply. It involves looking at all the aspects of the game in detail and looking to see how they all effect the mechs in the end. Including their max potential performance. That has to be designed correctly to let the mechs have a chance at performing correctly in all situations. Without it they are pointless to use unless there are sloppy players.

The heat and range and other natural aspects of that mech design should balance it out ok. It might hurt in some circumstances but they are things people should go up against and which do have proper counters for. Just ones people might have to deal with the actual combos in proper setup to learn to deal with.

IS mechs specifically are not meant to go toe to toe with equivalent clan. It's part of the game design. They are more powerful in small groups. People will only complain because they are taking on mechs in an inappropriate manner or not doing something else they should.

As to what I would pay. Remove it's crit abilities almost entirely to start. It should be an armor stripper. It's designed with the heat system to always ideally get rid of armor then attack with alternative weapons.(Except with the heavey becaue it is for taking on larger targets on purpose) This is because the weapons is so straightforward. It's a laser. If you changed those things it should entirely balance out as a weapon. There might be some boost in performance for heavies but those should exist for these PPC setups. They have natural weakness in heat recovery and whatnot. Especially once the enemy moves in. It is supposed to be strong at range and force the enemies to movein. This creates flow of battle. And being clan a natural weakness to multiple enemies and especially IS combined weapon fire. You are hit much harder for mistakes. So again, it's balanced by it's own nature. It just needs it's base functionality finally put in game.

Most of it's complaints against it, if this were implemented, would all be people adjusting to things they should have had to learn to do already like proper twisting and tanking or strategizing in ways beyond their own mech. Most players simply aim and shoot and try to solo everything and do not know how to maximize their play based on their mech or team. A person playing one of these setups will learn this faster. And these setups will slowly teach people to learn this.

Aren't all lasers armor strippers to start with. Maybe lasers in general need reduced crit chances. Assuming they are not low already. A pinpoint weapon should not have a high crit chance as it is accurate. So it should not have a high chance of hitting important items. Which should be what crit is simulating. Explosives explode and create shrapnel. Bullets bounce and break apart. This naturally increase area of affect inside the structure where it's softer. Lasers should be lower because their accurate nature makes them not hit as much or because they possibly only strike the surface whereas any balistic(missile or bullet) should have the ability to penetrate. So it's precision/surface striking should represent how little of the internal structure it is likely to damage. So they get low crit chances for relative low physical area of effect, penetration ability, and odds of strikes. Either way low crit is more balanced.

The only other way to balance this realistically, outside of this discussion, is to make bullets and missiles have penetration chances. Then they can gut structure to a small extent while firing on armor while lasers can't or can't as much. But that is another subject.

Edited by Arugela, 31 May 2017 - 10:21 PM.

[B0oN]

PPC´s on both sides are fine .

My Summoner Prime, Warhawk Prime, BJ3, CTF3D and (LO and BEHOLD!) one Mauler variant can easily attest to that .

IS mechs are MEANT to go straight up in their clan-counterpart´s faces ... how else would they deal all that sweet, sweet burst damage and play to their advantage.

By the way ... cERPPC already deals 15 damage, just not on point ...


Also :
Dual = 2 of whatever
Duel = Standoff fight
Brake = decelaration apparatus
Break = Kaputt/FUBAR/destroyed

Proper grammar to be properly understood, quiaff ^^

[Arugela]

IS is not meant to go straight up to clan solo. It should take teamwork to accomplish. That is the issue. You get burst damage when you do the work to get to them and use proper strategy. It should not be handed to you as it virtually is now. This weapon is one of the massive pieces to how and why that should work and it is gimped. Most of the dynamics between IS and clan don't exist because of this weapons damage. Clan is affected more by changes.

I know it does 15. But it needs to do it in pinpoint form to work correctly and help make all of what should play out in the game strategically.

Like I said, remove it's crit. don't let it be useful for much more than armor attacks and raw unmodified damage. The rest should balance out.

Here is what a proper dual PPC orionIIC should look like. It cannot take on assaults without the increase in damage. It should be able to. What this would do is force assaults to use more teamwork or strategy. Again all working towards better gameplay. also reducing the problems of assaults being OP. This change would start to force strategy all over the game. Especially because it is the all important Clan long range weapon.

OrionIICDualPPC / 2: https://tarogato-mwo...4c-3fde6b9ffb13 (Ammo and DHS/ AMS are in same ratio of tons to slots. Change them out as desired)(You can even remove 2-3 heat containment skill and magazine/missile capacity and numerous other skills for more skill points.) https://tarogato-mwo...4c-d3bbc19a902c (I removed the Gauss charge also. It does not need to be there! ><) https://tarogato-mwo...4c-554e83bebb14

This build with 15 Damage should be able to fire off 4 volleys of PPC very slowly. It can max it's PPC fire at 120 damage to give it the chance to take on Assaults frontal armor.(remember ideal situation and skill based) Then it goes to it's other more crit based weapons to kill the CT. It can fire the UAC2/s+LRM15's indefinitely given the heat gen and CDs. This is a proper and versatile dual PPC build for Clan heavy. It can do good solo work and team work and in a proper manner take on all mech categories if and when needed. This is something needed for individual clan mech functionality.

Without 15 damage this sort of proper build cannot properly do what a heavy should Engage assaults which is the purpose of heavy mechs. It can only engage other heavies nullifying this sort of build from heavy use. And simplifying teh option for teams in game.

The point is the potential of that damage in a heat bar for both heavies and assaults(particularly clan) need to be 120 damage(or whatever an assault mech has as near max.) This has to do with the mechs when views as weapon packages and how they can perform. This is basically max for a PPC build. It's functional but it requires skill and other things to work. And it has greater natural penalties for mistakes. Even more on the Assault variant.

The only thing I wonder about is how the new engine decoupling would effect this. That speed might be important and this type of missing weapon why the problem with assaults existed to start. They all need to be able to close in. but this type of counter has been missing in proper form. the damage doesn't just add damage. it adds damage to counter in the game which effects gameplay. This type of change could have been better than changing engine speeds. Unless it turns out not to be an issue. either way it will help heavies counter assaults more.

Things like this damage being reduced or modified directly destroys the capability of mech categories. Particularly for Clan. It stops heavy builds from proper long range setups designs to have greater tonnage to damage against assaults that primarily exists on heavy mechs. The pinpoint damage in this specific instance is very important for mech builds across the line on clan side. It is the only long range sniper laser. That has a profound impact on strategy in the game.

Edited by Arugela, 01 June 2017 - 12:36 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Ok exaggerated -
Clan play style: ME GOD ME KILL ANTS
IS play styles *shudder oh noes - help - try to focus...

I already posted what would happen with a 8vs12 setting based on the asumption that Clans have 50% more firepower. But this would go for all weapons - more v0, less bullets, less spread, less beam duration.....

However - regarding the shadow cat - you know that there are two variants with a Gauss?
There is hardly any reason to mount a single Gauss even yet - but with ERPPCs firing 15dmg bullets the reason is nil.
Btw - its not even balanced in TT because some special snowflake come with this argument.

Not to mention that the style of the SHD is not to play lineholder - its the skirmisher, harasser and hunter.

- and how the game is meant to be played and how it IS are two sides of two different coins. In the current enviroment there is no room for 15dmg ERPPCs - and there was not even "room" for a 15dmg 6ton 2crit in tabletop - (although with some abstraction i can accept that part of that extra damage is "skill" - because of the genetic enhancement - and there we are within range of a working FPS - setting.
15dmg but drop velocity towards 600m/s - so you need skill to hit with them.

[Arugela]

But there would be a lot of natural balance. Builds can only max at the ability fire enough to do the job or it's technically inefficient in the long run. This effects the outcome on a team level. The PPC is balance by higher returns in heat incase of any inaccuracy. It literally should be meant to strip armor then use other things to use crit or lower heat to kill. This is important on a team level both solo and in combined damage. The damage and time it is done in must line up. It doesn't now if you look at the numbers enough.

I think it would be balanced. Any other balance issues are things that need to be fixed and should have been to start with.

Long range PPC is not that accurate unless the enemy is sitting very still. They deserve to get hit and be made to learn then. People just don't want the game to be upped to the level it should be. And it would slowly flow that way and get more fun as it does.

You may not need the 8 vs 12(AKA any asymmetric battles), but it would be more of an option with this change. You can use other values based on the current game. They could adjust it if they found a way to do it to start. Especially if it's simple like filling in a slot and not letting a user join and permitting game start.

It's not that clan play as god. It's that Clan and IS are slightly out of sink. this is on purpose to make two play styles. IS is .6 and Clan is 1. If you have .6 and you want to overcome 1 you add .6 for 1.2. This works in more than just how two players can attack. It adds up as you get more players on IS side. IS has more weapon fire diversity so they can take out enemies more ways as a group to overcome the enemy. The Clan does this in a slightly different less dynamic way. But they have more individual power usually resulting in more 1v1 ability. IS is balanced on what their other IS mechs can do together. Clan is balance on what the individual mech can do and how that works out as a team.

That is why it matters what C-ERPPC does on one mech. It has to have the correct values for Clan mechs to function correctly. It's kind of like Zealots vs Marines in Starcraft.

Mind you these changes only give the ability to kill in certain time if it's done perfectly. Any mistakes are hit harder than other setups. But this is the minimum to even get to try. The penalties for this weapon naturally already exist. They are just more than the weapon stats.

Big post again. Star here:

Yea, if the new mech speeds in particular are lower, then lower velocities might be in order. Although there could be little problems with faster mechs. But who knows. Not sure how to tell how much it would need to dropped though. It might only needs a little. Numbers like that get their effects amplified by practical things in game so a little might go along way. It may only need to drop to like 1100. If you drop it by 10% then you can use the skill tree as a needed function to get the velocity back to normal amounts. That is 1200 velocity. that may have a bigger impact with the greater range of mech speeds from the engine decoupling. But, yea, velocity drops might be a convenient way to balance C-ERPPC. What about 1000 velocity. Then it's half of max velocity from the UAC2 in that build. That might work out good. That also makes the gain from the skill tree a simple set of numbers.

C-ERPPC:
slots: 2
Tons: 6
Damage: 15
Heat 14
Range: 810-1620
Velocity: 1000(up for debate!)
Crit: 0%(unless added by skills or items)(Also up for debate)

I think that can be modified to work in game! 8)

Edit: Thinking about it. I think the answer to velocity has to do with lock on weapons. You need to be able to lock-on. so it would have to be compared to the lock circle size and how much you can lead for max target tracking and leading with PPC and LRM's for instance. That would be a way to do it. And if you need Lights to be able to encircle make it past the lock on circle for that mech speed.

The last consideration for velocity is because C-ERPPC is supposed to be one of two or proper counters to IS laser poking(The other being C-LPL. Not sure if C-ERLL counts because of the duration.). It has to be compared to movement of IS poking mechs on some level. So it has to counter their running back and forth speeds or else it doesn't do it's job as a counter. No idea what velocity, or range of velocities, that is though.

Edited by Arugela, 01 June 2017 - 01:32 AM.

[Reno Blade]

Just a note here: When players tried 15DMG cERPPCs on the Energy Draw PTS, the people felt powerful first, but very quickly realized how OP the weapon was.

It's easy, keep PPC, or even lower direct damage if needed and get the rest of the weapons to the same level.

a bit more beam for lasers (or less damage) and put Gauss heat to 3 or something (so its not 15dmg for 1 heat that is perfectly syncing with hot weapons) maybe some small changes to AC/SRM to reduce burst potential and suddenly all weapons are much closer together.

[B0oN]

Arugela ...

"Long range PPC is not very accurate "

Yea, sure ... still better than not doing anything to targets at all .
With time using the PPC/ERPPC weapon system there comes that "click" moment where you start to hit people at the far range (1000 meters and upwards) and annoy them to no ends with it, just because they can´t fire back at you .

Furthermore : a mech nowadays has a somewhat higher survivabilty than before S.T., so those few hits with PPC´s/ERPPC´s wont immediately kill it, except the pilot in question panics and moves to a position even less covered and just plainly STARES at those evil perpetrators firing their high-heat, low-exposure-time weapons .

If you start to jink erratically and keep up proper torsotwisting-discipline the effect of PPC´s/ERPPC´s rapidly diminish .
And once the enemy is sub-500 meters things get interesting, for both sides : the PPC/ERPPC carrier will have to keep a very critical eye on his heat, while his opponent only starts his firing procedure .

On velocities : Don´t nerf them any further, or PPC/ERPPC will plainly fall out of the window of "usefulness" they currently sit in .
If there should be nerfing done, do it for both sides with a slight bias towards the IS ( 1003 meters of full damage range on a BJ3 ... nothing to scoff at, especially since the speed is quite impressive as well ), since their base-quirks give some PPC-carrying platforms a bigger advantage than a TC7 could compensate for over on the clan side .

But honestly said : nerfing the ppc for both sides is just not feeling right (even less when considering a nerf to clan ppcs), what with new tech around the corner to hit us, and highly prevalent ERLL spamming on both sides it is a notion I have to file under "ridiculous" .
PPC´s and ERPPC´s are still somewhat of a "niche" weapon compared to every other weaponsystem and I for one would welcome another 5-10% increase in overall PPC/ERPPC usage on both sides .

Keep PPC´s/ERPPC´s/cERPPC´s as they are, we are still seeing not enough usage of them to warrant a balance discussion in any way .

Mind you, I´ve a strong fetish for ERPPC´s ...
hmmm, about time I rebuilt my IS "Shortbus" Jenner from the times of CB again ... kekeke

[Arugela]

You are not seeing enough of them precisely because they are underpowered. it's not worth it on clan side. They are the natural counter to Pinpoint laser spam BTW. Clan ERPPC large slower large Damage chance(with more penalties for missing) VS dodgy IS laser spam(with more chances to take advantage of mistakes.). This gives more chances to forces IS from solo spamming to at least group laser spamming to counter. Then they start getting to use their combined weapon damage to a better degree. This all nudges the game towards better gameplay.

Clan long laser spam has longer timers for force it to face still to do damage. This stops mitigation of damage while fireing, especially from front tankers like the supernova/direwolf, and gives IS a chance to get in their(faster) shots in a precise location. If used in groups beyond a single IS mech they can tear clan apart with more mobile laser spammers(This is good and an intentional part of the game). To counter this, and balance this, Clan has the ERPPC with more heat less margin for error and the ability do what LPL does while shooting and disengaging earlier(slowly albeit and likely taking some damage), or using tactics to tank and mitigate damage by twisting. That is the point of Clan ERPPC. And why it's only viable Quad ERPPC setup is on a frontal tanker like the supernova.

The weapon is currently balanced by the heat system properly and in how many time it can fire before massive heat regen issues slow it down. But it does not have the proper damage. The correct damage allows for proper damage on inaccuracies to help balance combat fire time in more complex engagements, but also gives it enough for single engagement for single target which it must. It must be accurate achieve this and the realities of PPC accuracy over range balance this already in general(hence teh velocity balancing discussion).

Note it can fire in quad PPC only in damage of 60 and it is split up on both sides of the mech to make it easier more than likely for any IS twisting to spread it out. So accuracy and timing is a must. Once the heat is gone, without support, the IS can move in and rip it to shreds! This is how it should play out. It is at that point all based on player skill and strategy.

But without the instant fire this cannot be the counter it is meant to(AKA Clan has no proper laser spam counter). And that only exist at 15+ damage to boot!(And obviously no one wants beyone 15 so 15 is the key number) This is both because it gives a better damage ratio on the components it does hit as you consider the battle playing out(30 damage instead of 20) and gives more chance to retaliate(Either you or a teamate) based on how the battle plays out(inaccuracies for instance), but it's also important because it gives it the chance to properly take on it's own weight class 1 on 1 which it needs to do. Although it can only strip the mech then slowly take it's structure down(this forces it to need to be used in groups more). This is because PPC's other use is taking on charging assault mechs. It can do a good 120 to one assault mech before long resting periods). This needed to make it so the fact you putting Qaud PPC on an assault does not hurt group composition as much. It then has a minimally reasonable capability to help in assault charges but less versatile and slower in recoup time.(Again needing proper support to be efficient)(note that if you go one on one in IS assault you may die because of tanking mitigation giving enough time to finish structure, but with group assaults or any other mechs this will lead to it's downfall with any sort of reasonably good play on the IS side.)

Either way, It's vital for the 15 damage to exist as it's the only way to Balance this weapon for it's intended use. It's not really a sniper weapon unless on the correct boat. And it takes skills to accomplish. At which point you deserve to get the damage. And the enemy probably learns not to sit in a vulnerable location and use other tactics and think as they should. This is vital to long term health of the game and strategy. Although this is naturally balanced to some extent by the odds of missing a desired location repeatedly over time. This is what helps balance ERPPC compare to the more accurate Gauss. Then it's more effective as the enemy closes in. That is then balance by heat parameters giving lots of time to lose in making the weapon more useful for attacking within the 810 meter range unless the enemy is not closing in properly or other circumstances exist letting you recoup heat. At which point it is a strategic reality and in the enemies court to have enough forethought to avoid the situation.

And the problem with this weapon simply isn't visible outside of individual personal use atm because it's other aspects can't currently play out. Yes there would be complaints to the greater chance of death from sloppy non strategic players if the damage were increased. But this is really a core weapon that determines how the game will play out. It is needed for multiple reasons to exist and would push healthier gameplay once people got used to it. And it would be good if they dealt with it. The more people have to get killed, and fight this weapon, the more they get familiar and eventually realize the counters and use more teamwork. This would happen for multiple reasons because of the other PPC build types on clan side. But people would eventually learn how to play around it resulting in better play all around because of what it would eventually make people do. Which is part of it's design.

Edited by Arugela, 01 June 2017 - 01:45 PM.

[Strength Damage Cliff Racer]

Problem is, you talk about supernova but all I see is protectors hillhumping assaults like it's a pie eating contest.

[Arugela]

If they did that they are vulnerable to pushes because of high heat indexes. That and the fact that it weakens the team composition by using an assault overly in a way that is slightly weaker overall giving more room to kill them then stomp the rest of the teams composition. And any amount of IS weapon composition grouping should hurt them bad.

On a side note, I think this is why all mechs used to be faster... I'm not sure the engine decoupling helps this idea.. It's better everything can get in close better potentially because then you are less reliant on a single mech to close. Unless enough IS mech are faster in general to counter clan as a whole.

One other aspect of this weapon. If in a heavy engagement it should not be smart naturally to use PPC for long range fire. (you want to do this with gauss or PPC guass combo's(But to less extend than pure guass and which are heavier and harder to do on Clan without sacrificing things. Not to mention hard to do properly), and is only a 5 damage increase.). Inefficient PPC gauss in CW are also bad because when done badly allows more room for enemies to close in and stops weapon composition helping properly in match.(which hits Clan more than IS to start.) This is all on purpose and controlled by omnimech limitation and hardpoints on clan side. It would not get out of control and would all have counters for bad designs.(AKA it is bad for the team boating it badly.)

This is because of the natural heat index of the ERPPC. It provides too much of a chance for enemies to move in between volleys. And if spread makes you take a lot longer to kill. The slowness of the weapon should force group composition, but overuse should be detrimental to the team. The 15 damage allows certain dynamics to exist though.

BTW there aren't many combos from what i can see on clan to do PPC gauss without only one of each or severely limiting other weapon options or misusing the mech. This hurts overall group play in heavy engagement and makes it stupid unless done correctly. Mind you the game has to be balance to what can be done when played well or no one ever can play well.

Full list of Clan mechs with PPC and/or Gauss: (These builds are designed on max heat skills from both the weapons tree and operations tree.)

Light Mechs:

Mist Lynx:(25tons)(Omni Limits!)Waste of mech!! Can only boat one PPC, and the minimal 10 heatsinks. Not viable for anything out of goofy QP matchs or minimally viable. Innefficient regardless compared to other builds. Can't use Gauss!

Arctic cheetah:(30tons)(Omni Limits!)Waste of mech!! Same as Mist Lynx but 12 DHS and no gauss.

Kit Fox:(30tons)(Better options!) Can boat one PPC correctly potentially with AMS and ECM, or one Gauss with only 25 ammo, both without JJ's! Potentially wasting potential. Also somewhat easy to kill! JJ version can partially, boat 1xC-ERPPC without AMS, but virtually wasting the mech! 1-2 Possible 1xPPC(JJ version limited) setup! Better things to do with it though!

Adder:(35tons) Designed for PPC!(1xPPC) AdderPrimex1PPC Not viable beyond 1xppc but good at 1! Adjust DHS/AMSammo to desired amount.

Jenner:(35tons)Waste of mech!! Can fit 1 PPC and boat. 2 if you want to be really sloppy and inefficient. But not worth it. The 1xPPC is still wasting it's potential on something another mech could do.

Medium Mechs:

Viper:(40tons) Beyond waste of mech!! Boats PPC worse than an arctic cheetah! Can't fit Gauss. 1xppc unviable.

Ice Ferret:(45tons)Designed for PPC!(1xPPC) 1xClose Range / 1xLong range. Use PPC to core then when structure is exposed use Missiles to help crit and kill structure. Lone PPC is not worth it because of quirks. Missiles help both you and your team.

Shadow Cat:(45tons)Designed for Gauss!(1xGauss) 1xGauss! More interesting builds possibly with new Civil War lasers!

HunchBack IIC:(50tons)Can Boat various combos!(1xPPC+1xGauss, 1xPPC+weapons, 1xGauss+weapons, Possibly 2xGauss, and 2xPPC / 2 / 3) Note: This only starts at exactly half the max tonnage.

Huntsman:(50tons) Similar to HunchBack IIC!(1xPPC+1xGauss / 1xPPC / 2, 2xPPC / 2 / 3, 1xGauss, etc)Can fit 3xPPC but not in a worthwhile manner. All LRM versions can be turned into SRM versions!

Nova:(50tons)(Omni Limits!)(Ideal PPC Mech!)(2xPPCMax) Similar to other 50 tonners but more specialized. 2xPPC
160 max damage at 10 damage. 240 damage at 15. 8x shots! Depends how much you like PPCs. Not sure on group composition effect. Ideal PPC mech. Can be modified extensively!

Stormcrow:(55tons)(Omni Limits!) Similar to 50 tonners. No JJs.

Heavy Mechs:

Mad Dog:(60tons)(Omni Limits!)Can do 1xGauss, 1xPPC, or 1xPPC+1xGauss. More limited than mediums! No JJ's!

Ebonjaguar:(65tons)(Better options!) First mech to boat 3xPPC, but is better off doing 2 and weapons. No JJs'!
I can also boat 2xPPC+1xGauss and all previous combos. But more diverse/useful builds are available.

HellBringer:(65tons)(Omni Limits!) Can do similar to mediums because of weight limitations.

LineBacker:(65tons)Designed for PPC! (2xPPCmax but Better Options!) No JJ's! But it's probably better to not focus purely on PPC. It needs a combined weapons platorm with probably 1x PPC. Can't even do PPC gauss.

Summoner:(70tons)Designed for PPC! But very limited in combos. Uses in small numbers. (2xPPC max pheasible ammount)

Night Gyr:(75tons) First mech to do 2xPPC+2xGauss. Limited in ammo though. Better off in smaller amounts.

To be continued...

But as you can see almost none of them can boat a larger amount of ERPPC. Only the Supernova and Direwolf can fit larger quantities in a way that is not taking away from better layouts. Almost all Clan mechs have smaller amounts of PPC and fire them for a long period of time. mainly 2x ERPPC.

In fact no mechs up to night gyr are even recommendable for use with anything beyond 2 C-ERPPC!

Edited by Arugela, 01 June 2017 - 09:08 PM.