40 replies to this topic

[Ced Riggs]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 May 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

I play both sides 'mechs, but I play Clan ones more because they are unequivocally better overall.

I wish my auto cannons had less projectiles.
I wish my LBX were smaller.
I wish my lasers had such short burn times.
I wish my LRMs would come as a puke cloud.
I wish I had armor and structure of a mech one category higher.
I wish I had better cooldown nodes in the skilltree.
I wish I had ERLL and LPL with such insanely short burn times and high damage per second of burn ratios.
I wish I had the option to slot STD engines in some of my mechs.

I could go on.

Again. Like a broken record. If people run Kintaros with LRM 5 against Timber Alpha Wolves, they will keep eating dirt. That's not IS vs. Clan, that's bad chassis vs. good chassis. If you run the top performers with the top loadouts, IS cannot only match, but even surpass clan mechs. What's a 4 ERLL EBJ going to do against a 5 ERLL Grasshopper? Outranged, outtraded, outburnt, outheated, outarmored, outstructured, better hardpoints and vision.

I could go on.

The problem is, that people look at this as a IS vs. Clan balance issue, when it is a chassis vs. chassis issue. What I really wish for was that my 'Phracts weren't so ****, that my Kushwankers and Derpnecks could finally mount LFEs, that mechs like the Vindicator, Victor and the Pretty Babby weren't such laughing stocks. Those are issues. Not IS vs. Clan. As long as there are underperforming chassis and people play them, they will, due to a lack of seeing the bigger picture, assume it's an IS vs. Clan thing. I don't see enough Grasshoppers, Battlemasters, Maulers, Griffins, Hunchies, Oxides, Javelins and other decent mechs to be sure that this is different.

Look. I play IS mechs in QP, Clams in FW. I am happy as a clam ( ) that IS is now stronger, more durable, and packs a punch while staying cool. Clanners are squishy and easily pressured. I can hit 600 damage in Javelins, mow things down in Kushwankers, or bzzt things in Thunderbolts. It all works, and clanners have little to respond. But if you keep beating this horse as a IS vs. Clan issue, while mechs like the Centurion, the King Crab and Atlas are getting shafted left and right within the IS, it's plain unfair to those mechs and the players that pilot them.

[Clownwarlord]

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

No, you can't, but you can't nerf hardpoints either. Mechs with bad hardpoints will always be bad. No amount of quirks will suddenly make them good. Likewise, no amount of nerfs will ever make a mech with amazing hardpoints balanced. It will always be amazing. That is the way PGI designed the game.

How many hard points do you need? I can do decent with just 2 energy (2 ERPPC). Just about every mech can hold 2 ERPPCs.

[Y E O N N E]

Ced Riggs, on 30 May 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

I wish my LBX were smaller.

Smaller than what? They are all smaller than their IS counterparts. Unlike everything else on your list, this is not debatable in any capacity.

[Natred]

Idk clan lbx 10s have some wierd spread lol. Have to see video proof or experiment for myself

[Jay Leon Hart]

Ced Riggs, on 30 May 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

I could go on.

The problem is, that people look at this as a IS vs. Clan balance issue, when it is a chassis vs. chassis issue. What I really wish for was that my 'Phracts weren't so ****, that my Kushwankers and Derpnecks could finally mount LFEs, that mechs like the Vindicator, Victor and the Pretty Babby weren't such laughing stocks. Those are issues. Not IS vs. Clan. As long as there are underperforming chassis and people play them, they will, due to a lack of seeing the bigger picture, assume it's an IS vs. Clan thing. I don't see enough Grasshoppers, Battlemasters, Maulers, Griffins, Hunchies, Oxides, Javelins and other decent mechs to be sure that this is different.

Look. I play IS mechs in QP, Clams in FW. I am happy as a clam ( ) that IS is now stronger, more durable, and packs a punch while staying cool. Clanners are squishy and easily pressured. I can hit 600 damage in Javelins, mow things down in Kushwankers, or bzzt things in Thunderbolts. It all works, and clanners have little to respond. But if you keep beating this horse as a IS vs. Clan issue, while mechs like the Centurion, the King Crab and Atlas are getting shafted left and right within the IS, it's plain unfair to those mechs and the players that pilot them.

We could both go on (and on, and on) with weapons and chassis, Clan would still win on equipment though

I have been running my HBK-IIC-A and HBK-4P with near identical builds - 6MPL + 2JJs vs 6 MPL
Both have a 275 engine and very similar cooling
HBK-4P is harder to kill
HBK-IIC-A is more maneuverable
Both are relatively easy to disable
One has a dead side, but also a better target side
One can fight with either side torso missing

However, the HBK-IIC-A performs better in most matches. Anecdotal, obviously, but it is what it is.

[Ced Riggs]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 May 2017 - 11:11 AM, said:

We could both go on (and on, and on) with weapons and chassis, Clan would still win on equipment though

I have been running my HBK-IIC-A and HBK-4P with near identical builds - 6MPL + 2JJs vs 6 MPL
Both have a 275 engine and very similar cooling
HBK-4P is harder to kill
HBK-IIC-A is more maneuverable
Both are relatively easy to disable
One has a dead side, but also a better target side
One can fight with either side torso missing

However, the HBK-IIC-A performs better in most matches. Anecdotal, obviously, but it is what it is.

Thank you for your level-headed, calm response. Much appreciated.

As for agility:

29.26 - Centurion (A, AH, AL), Crab (all), Enforcer (all), Hunchback (all), Trebuchet (all), Catapult (Butterbee, Jester), Grasshopper (all), Huntsman (all), Nova (all), Gargoyle (all)
20.02 - Archer (all), Cataphract (all), Warhammer (all), Awesome (Pretty Baby), Battlemaster (all), Hunchback-IIC (all), Highlander-IIC (all)

Hunchbacks have an almost 50% better base line agility than HBK-IIC.

Edited by Ced Riggs, 30 May 2017 - 11:43 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Ced Riggs, on 30 May 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:

Hunchbacks have an almost 50% better base line agility than HBK-IIC.

That is honestly shocking. Well, ok, not shocking, but certainly surprising. Then again, I did invest a little more in Mobility on the IIC-A than the 4P, so I could dump some into Armour/Structure on the 4P. I'll have to even out their skill trees, see if that helps!

[Edit] In fact, I may have to run the IIC-A without JJs, since that is a very big difference for a Medium [/Edit]

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 30 May 2017 - 12:04 PM.

[Natred]

Whats the easiest way to post pictures? I want to show you my pheonix hawk, grasshopper and rifleman stats. Its interesting looking at my stats. My maruder iic and battlemasters have similar stats. With the rifleman i have 23 wins 5 losses 4.6 win rate 32 kills 11 deaths 2.9 kdr. Thats way better than my ebon jaguars and they are glass cannons compared to inner sphere mechs. The rifileman has armor and damage brutal combo. Interesting to me i didnt think it was that much better lol than the jag.

Edited by Natred, 30 May 2017 - 12:43 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Natred, on 30 May 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

Whats the easiest way to post pictures?

I just throw them on imgur and use the direct picture link to embed it in a post.

You got me curious, so I threw my 'mech stats into a spreadsheet, then sorted by most played, then looked at the top 10. [Edit] Apparently, my version of Excel thinks 11 is 10... [/Edit]

Most played > least played
TBR-S
KFX-Prime
TBR-Prime
RFL-3N
SMN-Prime
HBK-IIC-A
SMN-C
HBR-Prime
NVA-Breaker
HBR-B
NTG-Prime

Now, when I came back to the game, I only had a Founder's Catapult and I bought the TBR, SMN and HBR a la carte bundles. I honestly don't play those 'mechs as much as I used to, certainly not since PSR became a thing. So, that leaves;

KFX-Prime
RFL-3N
HBK-IIC-A
NVA-Breaker
NTG-Prime

Sorted by W/L;

HBK-IIC-A (1.86)
NTG-Prime (1.25)
NVA-Breaker (1.05)
KFX-Prime (0.87)
RFL-3N (0.8)

Sorted by K/D;

NVA-Breaker (2.08)
HBK-IIC-A (1.46)
RFL-3N (1.22)
NTG-Prime (1.13)
KFX-Prime (0.71)

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 30 May 2017 - 01:33 PM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Skill isn't a part of the equation, because you balance mech and tech, assuming two players of equal skill are facing each other.

[Xmith]

Natred, on 30 May 2017 - 07:25 AM, said:

Can not nerf skill good players will always come out on top no matter what mech they pilot.

Exactly this. I made a thread a few years ago saying that balance will never happen because of the different skillset of players. Balancing mechs with comparable skilled pilots is not necessary. However, when pilots skills do not match, then people will say this is a mech balance problem. It actually depends on the skill of players that determine what balance changes are needed in my opinion.

Edited by Xmith, 30 May 2017 - 02:47 PM.

[Scyther]

@Xmith:
So... if pilots are of equal skill and you put one in an underpowered/poor design mech with IS tech, say an Awesome or Victor, and put the other in a (currently) half-decent design, maybe a MAD IIC or even a Gargoyle, with Clan tech... that is a fair fight? No further balancing needed? Tech and mech differences are irrelevant since the pilots are of equal skill?

Because I'll happily bet money against you given that premise.

The game design goal is to present a level playing field (eg, relatively close to balance) and then let player skill determine who wins. You don't give one team hi-tech bobsleds and the other one wooden toboggans and declare 'It's a fair race guys, only skill matters!'.

Edited by MadBadger, 30 May 2017 - 03:15 PM.

[Natred]

Madbager and lt hardcase lets one vs one you can use your clan tech and i will use innersphere. clan op right so you should be able to beat me easy peasy.

[Xmith]

How did thread start talking about mechs? OP was talking about players not mechs.

OP was describing the type of player that can deal with any nerf that PGI throws at em. They can do this without a whimper or a whine. This the type of player that can drop with any mech of their choice with positive results.

This is what you would call a good player.

Edited by Xmith, 30 May 2017 - 04:53 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Natred, on 30 May 2017 - 07:25 AM, said:

Can not nerf skill good players will always come out on top no matter what mech they pilot.

No, Nope, not always true in the slightest. There is just a point where no level of skill can overcome the weaknesses of their mech and tech. I mean do you really think that a skilled player piloting a stock Urbie could defeat a bad play piloting a tricked out Arctic Cheetah with a 91 point skill build? Not going to happen 99.9999998% of the time.

[Kubernetes]

Dogstar, on 30 May 2017 - 09:55 AM, said:

@OP So you're saying that a skilled player in a stock vindicator can beat an average player in a meta Marauder IIC?

Seems unlikely

I'd say it depends on the skill level differential. A very skilled pilot will dictate that engagement with speed and agility. That Mad-IIC would get halved without landing one solid alpha.

And man, why do people still dump on the Zeus? Take a 9S out with laser vomit and a big XL-- it's a freaking monster.

Edited by Kubernetes, 30 May 2017 - 06:35 PM.

[Ced Riggs]

Viktor Drake, on 30 May 2017 - 05:14 PM, said:

I mean do you really think that a skilled player piloting a stock Urbie could defeat a bad play piloting a tricked out Arctic Cheetah with a 91 point skill build?

Actually, yes. The Cheetah will overheat, and miss shots, the urbie will leg him and wreck him. Bad example.

[Wayland]

Nearly vomited in my mouth when Ced Riggs stated IS mechs out range and out trade clans

[Ced Riggs]

Wayland, on 31 May 2017 - 12:19 AM, said:

Nearly vomited in my mouth when Ced Riggs stated IS mechs out range and out trade clans

I never said (clarification edit:) it that general, luckily. I said that a Grasshopper vs. Ebon Jaguar wins the trade. I made a mistake there, though - the Grasshopper doesn't outrange the EBJ. But Battlemasters can. Wrong mech, my bad. And when you look at it further, you realise quickly that a huge chunk of the IS mechs have a +10% energy range quirk, which puts their at higher range than cERLLs. Some even have 15% or combined effects on top of structure, armor or heat/cooldown quirks. You have these 10% range quirks from lights all the way up to the assaults.

And that gives isERLL more range than cERLL, at a shorter burntime, for better trading at extreme ranges.

For full disclosure: Clans have 5% range increases in omnipods, too. 5 (2 different RTs and RAs, so effectively 3) on the Summoner, 1 on the Linebacker, 1 on the Nova, that's it. So, in theory, a Summoner could accumulate +15% energy range, and run 4 cERLL on 18 DHS (14 internal) in low slung arm mounts. Other than that, the only clan mechs that can outrange about a third of all IS mechs with isERLL carriers are the 50t Nova and the Linebacker. Still doesn't make up for the shorter burntimes, but at least these two mechs can beat the isERLL at range.

So, yes. IS outranges and outtrades Clans at extreme ranges. This is not news, either.

Edited by Ced Riggs, 31 May 2017 - 01:04 AM.

[Scyther]

Ced Riggs said:
"Thankfully, IS tech is either diagonally equivalent, or backed by sturdier chassis, or outranges and outtrades clan tech."

Somebody's short-term memory appears to be glitching, that or he's been drinking the Gyrok Kool-Aid a little too much lately.

As for 10% Range quirks, please check the KitFox, Viper, Huntsman, Summoner, Night Gyr, War Hawk. And 5% on LineBacker and Dire Wolf. Oh and of course Clan TCs that add 4% and up to every Clan mech. Oh and Energy weapons with base ranges that are 30-50% longer than their IS counterpart.

Seriously, Clan guys, get a grip.