71 replies to this topic

[Gwahlur]

Tarogato, on 10 June 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

I'm not sure where you got 7. If you had 56 rear armour, then you would get a +7 armour on your front CT. I doubt you put 45% of your armour on your rear.

Yeah, I spoke too quickly there.
gives +8 here
and i've picked those up, so i obviously feel that much is worth it

Let me know if those pics are annoying

Edited by Gwahlur, 10 June 2017 - 04:03 PM.

[Palfatreos]

idk how coding in general work but let say heatsink 1.5 no matter what. 2 test forest standing still.

-10 truedubs
http://imgur.com/Ihn69Be
alpha = 23%
-7truedubs 3 poordubs
http://imgur.com/7H2ltU7
alpha = 24%

pgi statement
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5745303

few test i did that contradict the statement
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5755738

[Val_Z]

I'm no expert, but what i think you are observing, is the 10 TrueDubs removing heat more effectively, and they actually start dissipating heat as soon as its generated. So as your heat continues to climb they are removing heat and it doesn't reach the same peak as 7 TrueDubs + 3.

Meaning that 1% difference isn't in capacity, but cooling efficiency.

I think.

[Val_Z]

Khobai, on 10 June 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

.... adding extra armor to legs doesnt make your mech tougher if you die to CT damage ...

This is the only part of your post that is correct. And its just a fairly obvious statement of fact.

Khobai, on 10 June 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

...
so looking at the total armor of a mech is completely misleading. all that really matters is how much CT armor it gains. because most likely you will die to your CT being destroyed.

That is such a narrow minded and acute way of looking at this, not to mention completely inaccurate.

Do you run your side torso and arm armor fully stripped to gain more tonnage? Because that is the logic your statement is following.

Armor is important over your whole mech with exception of legs somewhat (and maybe head).

You carry weapons in most mechs anywhere other than CT. Keeping these protected with armor is just as important as CT.

If you are staring at mechs and not taking damage anywhere other than your CT i suggest you look up some guides for torso twisting. You will live longer, do more damage, and perform better overall.

Good players routinely finish games in the 30% overall health mark, with lots of components open and some missing altogether. Armour and structure on those places is just as important to overall health and performance in matches.

And i would also argue, that adding extra armor to your legs is just as valuable in the survival tree, as it allows you to strip that extra leg HP off, and allows more free tonnage for your mech to use on more valuable things. This last point might come down to more personal taste and may not suit everyone.

Really, I find your point of view so ridiculous, that if i didn't know any better, i would say you are trolling.

[Palfatreos]

---Val---, on 10 June 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

I'm no expert, but what i think you are observing, is the 10 TrueDubs removing heat more effectively, and they actually start dissipating heat as soon as its generated. So as your heat continues to climb they are removing heat and it doesn't reach the same peak as 7 TrueDubs + 3.

Meaning that 1% difference isn't in capacity, but cooling efficiency.

I think.

that would be true if i was using a weapon that produce heat over time like lasers. However srm and ppc produce heat intstantly giving no time to cool off the peek value. Ideally you would test this on a mech with alot heatsink and erppc's to widen the heat% difference between the 2 formula.

[Val_Z]

While it might make heat instantly, the heat bar may not show that heat instantly.

PGI also reduced the refresh rate on the HUD/UI a little while ago, which may compound this problem.

[Burning2nd]

so much effort to put together a good guide, then you get dumb when you have to talk about LRM's

Sounds like to me, like you dont know how to use them.... or dont know how to not get hit by them....

AND i see some major problems with your fundamental setup

[B0oN]

Burning2nd, on 11 June 2017 - 12:26 AM, said:

so much effort to put together a good guide, then you get dumb when you have to talk about LRM's

Sounds like to me, like you dont know how to use them.... or dont know how to not get hit by them....

AND i see some major problems with your fundamental setup

The "major problem" is that the guide seems to be setup for direct-firing weapons ?
To each his own .
Plus, if you like LRM´s so much why don´t you make a guide specially for their usage ?

[Burning2nd]

I use all weapons , all mech , all builds .... not just meta ez

[Tarogato]

Burning2nd, on 11 June 2017 - 12:26 AM, said:

so much effort to put together a good guide, then you get dumb when you have to talk about LRM's

Sounds like to me, like you dont know how to use them.... or dont know how to not get hit by them....

I called it a tryhard guide. Tryhards tend not to use LRMs, so it's in the name.

But seriously, if you're going to use LRMs:

- take zero mobility on all mechs with LRMs
- take max velocity in firepower
- then cooldown if it's a cool build, or heat gen if it's a hot build
- sensor tree for better locks
- then finish out with what you have leftover, heat gen or cooldown

Quote

AND i see some major problems with your fundamental setup

Praytell?

Edited by Tarogato, 11 June 2017 - 08:26 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

So just to 100% clarify - Tarogato and Matt3049 (on a similar reddit thread) are not fans of Heat Containment (via the ops tree) amirite?

I'm asking as I continuously tinker with my builds here for optimizing, and I've picked up a few extra nodes of HC along the way but can see why they're probably a waste of space.

For Group/Comp play, I can get most mechs having no Seismic but in solo play just love the thing, so might not save myself 12 there. Just comes in handy much too often to be ignored, in all settings imo.

[Tarogato]

Lukoi Banacek, on 11 June 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

So just to 100% clarify - Tarogato and Matt3049 (on a similar reddit thread) are not fans of Heat Containment (via the ops tree) amirite?

I'm asking as I continuously tinker with my builds here for optimizing, and I've picked up a few extra nodes of HC along the way but can see why they're probably a waste of space.

For Group/Comp play, I can get most mechs having no Seismic but in solo play just love the thing, so might not save myself 12 there. Just comes in handy much too often to be ignored, in all settings imo.

If you like, you can go to that spreadsheet in my OP and copy the Ops page to your own spreadsheet. And just type in the amount of Cool Runs and Heat Containments you want in their respective columns and look a the graph (and the "intercept" column which tells you how long in seconds into a fight after which Cool Run is more effective)


But yeah, to be clear... I don't see much point in Heat Containment. Cool Run all the way.

Edited by Tarogato, 11 June 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Thanks. I basically agree with that premise but with the constant discussions on alot of these threads and occasionally people mixing heat gen/heat containtment etc I'd gotten pretty confused. Thanks for confirming

[Palfatreos]

So i for my understanding crit worked like this => crit damage =/= mech damage only component damage and no crit chance on armor parts.

i was testing a EBJ with 30 front armor, 0 rear armor, 30 structure per torso no component inside. LT get shot by 10x is small laser = 30 damage, RT shot by 3 x is ppc = 30 damage.

Test 1 : +1 structure node (3.2 per node) 30.96 structure per torso.

(shot in the back to bypass front armor, rear armor = 0)
3 times out 3 test LT destroyed with 10 small laser
2 times out 3 test RT destoryed with 3 ppc

so i got confused about this because i dint expect the torso to get destroyed.

Test 2: +1 armor node (1.7 per node) 30.51 armor per torso

shot in the front both torso armor red but not open.

after that my test partner had to go so that ended the testing but i cant explain why the first test got it torso destroyed.

[Tarogato]

Palfatreos, on 12 June 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

after that my test partner had to go so that ended the testing but i cant explain why the first test got it torso destroyed.

Because crits deal damage to components (such as torso, leg, arm, etc) as well as items inside (such as heatsink, weapon, ammo, etc). If you work it out, structure is worth something like 91% of its face value, because it receives crit damage and armour doesn't. I'm not sure what that number works out to with the Reinforced Casing nodes, nor am I sure if I'm even remembering that number exactly right.


Also, you don't need to private lobby with a friend to test armour and hitboxes and such, you can take your mech to the Academy. When you swap yourself into a different mech (I like to use the Cicada for testing hitboxes for instance), it puts your own mech on a pedestal and you can go shoot at it yourself.

[Onimusha shin]

Tarogato, on 10 June 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

Yeah, this I don't know about. When in doubt, trust what PGI directly says. But if the guide you linked is correct, and Heat Containment ONLY applies to the base 30 capacity, then that means Cool Run is all the more a clear winner.

However, I don't know when PGI has stated anything on this, nor do I have evidence either way. Do you have any other information?

So considering this information, it's a bit less certain what's better, CoolRun(CR)/HeatContainment(HC)...

On my end, I'd definitely advocate HC along the way to some CR. The question is if the additional SPs needed to reach the last 2 CR nodes is worth it compared to HeatGen(HG) nodes.

Considering the way things are setup, I would almost always setup Survival+Misc tree first, Firepower next for maximum HG nodes and Cooldown nodes to bump up DPS, then focus on HC/CR. By the time I'm looking at Ops tree, I'll usually be left with at most 27 SPs so depending on the role of the build, some of that might go to Firepower or Mobility. HG is literally number 1 on most builds. Only dual Gauss builds paired with something else, need it less.

Tarogato, on 10 June 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

My conclusion is (very generally): Cool Run is a better investment than Heat Containment IF: you are engaged with the enemy for at least ~30 seconds. I've added details in my OP at the top of this thread, so you can see the reasoning up there.

Now that I've looked at Oni's approach, his error is relying on "consecutive alphas until heatcap" as a measuring stick. In a real game, you rarely fire alphas consecutively, there's usually some time to cool in between shots, where you're waiting for the next clear opportunity to shoot the component/mech you want. OR, you're committed to a full engagement. And when you're committed, then you're commited - you'll probably be fighting for longer than 30 seconds. Oni's method seems to cease measuring once you've reached heatcap, which often happens rather early. My method looks at available heat as a function of time.

It's true, I focused on max DPS rather than sustained. YMMV but in my calculations, I look at the ROI on SPs invested and also considered that most of my solo gameplay allows for me to hold back in between trades to cool off.

For sustained DPS situations, I find that there are usually 2 types, i.e. being pushed by more than 1 enemy mech or pushing into an enemy front/flank. In both situations, I'd have my overheat shutdown overridden already and hopefully have a standby Coolshot ready. In the above 2 situations, unless I'm lucky and ignored, rarely do I find that I'm able to be engaged for more than 20 seconds. Not saying that it doesn't happen, but when it does, I find that the SP investment on the Coolshots is better return than that extra 4-6% of CR, especially if you don't boat heatsinks.

Conclusion is, if you have spare SPs to spend on getting last 2-3 CoolRun nodes, AFTER getting as much HeatGen nodes as you can, AND if you boat heatsinks (15 DHS or more), yeah, go ahead and get CR all the way. But if you ignore most of the HeatContain nodes, it's to your detriment as you can't maximise the use of your CR skills when you reach heatcap faster than 20s.

P.S. I downloaded your s/s and noted that your theorycrafting seems flawed. When your 13 SP CR pathing is already 1 SP away from the next 1-2 HC nodes, why do you not use that as a logical path? For eg, you path a 8% CR and 3% HC Ops tree but 2 HC nodes are available for just 2 SPs. Wouldn't it make sense to just spend the easy SPs and compared a balanced path?

Similarly so for your 13 SP HC pathing, I can easily grab 3 CR nodes for 6% CR to boost the build's heat efficiency.

P.P.S. Your 17 SP pathing for 6% CR and 15% HC is wasting 2 SP. I got same efficiency with 15 SPs here.

[Spr1ggan]

I've been finding you need to go heavy into mobility with the fs9 or wlf or else it's no bueno. Full survivability aint worth it when your 35 tonner handles like an atlas.

[Leone]

I 'unno 'bout that. I took one all the way down to the speed tweak, an had another just take my usual 9pt mobility dip to grab three torso twists.

I felt the 9 pt dip was better, as it allowed me to focus more on Firepower, allowing me that little extra edge in mech melting power so necessary in little light knife fights.

~Leone.

[Palfatreos]

Do you know how the spread node works for srm? (and prolly lbx).

If Srm spread base value 5 with 1 srm spread node (2.5%) and with artemis (34%).

SRM Spread base (1 - artemis - srm spread node) = 5(1 - 34% - 2.5%) = 3.175
SRM Spread base (1 - artemis) - srm spread node) = 5((1 - 34%) - 2.5%) = 3.2175

or maybe it another formula

[CPTCruz2015]

I was definitely too lazy to figure out how to optimize this thing on my own. Just dropped by to say thanks for making this guide, Taro!