118 replies to this topic

[Jay Leon Hart]

Grus, on 01 June 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

the std eng increase survivability. If you spread damage right you'll have a crap ton of up available. Also if you lose a st you won't slow down or suffer a cooling penitly, like clan mech's do. But you'd rather be a glass cannon that can burn through things faster and cry about IS XL than use something different.

How many Clan BatleMechs use STD engines?

...

That's what I thought...

[Alan Davion]

Jay Leon Hart, on 01 June 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

How many Clan BatleMechs use STD engines?

...

That's what I thought...

That operate under what rule set?

Stock Mechs Only TT?

Modifiable Mechs Allowed TT?

MWO?

[Felicitatem Parco]

Alan Davion, on 01 June 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

That operate under what rule set?

Stock Mechs Only TT?

Modifiable Mechs Allowed TT?

MWO?

Quad Gauss Kodiak does.
:-p

[El Bandito]

Wraith31, on 01 June 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

+15% is not enough? That hits to 840m

Are you kidding me? Not only you will need to spend considerable amount of nodes in Weapons tree to achieve that, optimum range is far more important due to damage to heat ratio, of which IS LPL can reach up to 420 meters at most. Clan CLPL can reach 690 meters in comparison, with range tree.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 June 2017 - 05:17 PM.

[Revis Volek]

OP doesnt understand the problem like he thinks he does it seems...


Engines have EVERYTHING to do with it and are the start of the issue on most IS mechs.


If you have been here and actually playing the game since 2013 you should know exactly why they have been this why for so long and even lived through it. You idea of balance is even worse then PGI's.

Prosperity Park, on 01 June 2017 - 04:56 PM, said:

Quad Gauss Kodiak does.
:-p

You mean the slowdiak



joke build.

[Mech Croissant]

Jay Leon Hart, on 01 June 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

How many Clan BatleMechs use STD engines?

...

That's what I thought...

Not many, but it is an option to do so. I have a KDK-2 build with 2 erl, 2 erm and a lpl in the center. Every now and again it gave me an extra kill at the end of the battle as an enemy pilot was targeting my leftover open side torso, expecting an instakill only to find out I havent died die to second side torso loss, being startled and in the meantime I secure the kill with my lpl in my center. It's, maybe not a valid build, but fun ; )

Edited by Mech Croissant, 01 June 2017 - 10:39 PM.

[Mech Croissant]

MadBadger, on 01 June 2017 - 02:17 AM, said:

As for logic? You're playing a sci-fi combat game based on giant machines, fusion engines, and space 'jump' technology that can't even craft decent optics or a rear-view camera. Logic went out the window long ago. You use 'story sense' instead.

To be correct here, in lore the view is a 360° band. That's why some mechs have weapons in the back, like the med-laser of the Wolfshound.

[Khobai]

Quote

Engine imbalance is MUCH greater than weapon balance

actually thats completely false.

clans save far more tonnage on their much lighter weapons and clan endo/ferro than IS saves using XL vs STD.

especially now that engine decoupling has made larger CXLs not worth taking anymore. they arnt worth the exponential tonnage increase anymore.

CXL is certainly a big part of the imbalance. But its not where most of the clans' extra tonnage is coming from. Its mostly coming from things like CGauss weighing 3 tons less and another like 3 tons from Clan Endo/Ferro being vastly superior to IS Endo/Ferro. Plus the CERML or CSPL are probably the best 1 ton investments in the game.

Point being, IS vs Clans is going to take FAR more than just balancing CXL vs ISXL. CXL is just one part of it. But its not even the biggest part.

Quote

Engines have EVERYTHING to do with it and are the start of the issue on most IS mechs.

Nah id argue that clan tech often being better as well as lighter and taking up less crit slots in addition to clan endo/ferro being way better than the IS equivalent is what screws IS over the most. Plus the fact that omnimechs can combine those advantages with always having ideal hardpoints.

Engine imbalance has become somewhat less of an issue since IS mechs were allowed to keep all their armor/structure quirks and the fact that engine decoupling has massively punished clan mechs investing in larger engines. The biggest problem with IS engines isnt external balance IMO, but rather internal balance: the XL, LFE, and STD just arnt equal choices.

Edited by Khobai, 01 June 2017 - 11:05 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Mech Croissant, on 01 June 2017 - 10:38 PM, said:

Not many, but it is an option to do so. I have a KDK-2 build with 2 erl, 2 erm and a lpl in the center. Every now and again it gave me an extra kill at the end of the battle as an enemy pilot was targeting my leftover open side torso, expecting an instakill only to find out I havent died die to second side torso loss, being startled and in the meantime I secure the kill with my lpl in my center. It's, maybe not a valid build, but fun ; )

That happens how often? Oh sometimes i die with both STs gone - but usually the CT is allready orange - so we are talking about one or two shots at best.

Only 5 Mechs in the whole franchise would be forced to run Clan STD in MWO - BattleCobra, Stooping Hawk, Avalance, Crossbow and Kingfisher

Khobai, on 01 June 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

actually thats completely false.

clans save far more tonnage on weapons and clan endo/ferro than IS saves using XL vs STD.

a lot of that is due to the fact that engine decoupling has made larger CXLs not worth taking anymore.

CXL is certainly a big part of the imbalance. But its not where most of the clans' extra tonnage is coming from. Its mostly coming from things like CGauss weighing 3 tons less and Clan Endo/Ferro being vastly superior to IS Endo/Ferro.

Point being, IS vs Clans is going to take FAR more than just balancing CXL vs ISXL.

The engine is as usually a Inner Clan Balance issue - based on the OmniRule. Sure the extra tons for the NTGs XL might not be much - but it is existend.
Other Mechs like Gargoyle (although it is the winner of the engine decoupling thanks to quirks) could become a much better Mech when you would have been allowed to drop the engine rating by 15-25 points
(you sacrifice only 3-5kph)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 01 June 2017 - 10:56 PM.

[Mech Croissant]

Karl Streiger, on 01 June 2017 - 10:52 PM, said:

That happens how often? Oh sometimes i die with both STs gone - but usually the CT is allready orange - so we are talking about one or two shots at best.

Only 5 Mechs in the whole franchise would be forced to run Clan STD in MWO - BattleCobra, Stooping Hawk, Avalance, Crossbow and Kingfisher


The engine is as usually a Inner Clan Balance issue - based on the OmniRule. Sure the extra tons for the NTGs XL might not be much - but it is existend.
Other Mechs like Gargoyle (although it is the winner of the engine decoupling thanks to quirks) could become a much better Mech when you would have been allowed to drop the engine rating by 15-25 points
(you sacrifice only 3-5kph)

Like I say, now and again, meaning so little, that I would never call it a valid build but a fun one....especially for these moments.

On the IS side, I regularily take std engine (for example all my cw builds use std). So, with the LFE coming this july, it will be a HUGE boost for all of my IS mechs.

But still, a Grasshopper can boat 5 lpl with a standard and still do 75+. I call that a valid build and not crippled due to std. The same goes for the Battlemaster, Cataphract etc pp.

[Karl Streiger]

Mech Croissant, on 01 June 2017 - 11:02 PM, said:

But still, a Grasshopper can boat 5 lpl with a standard and still do 75+. I call that a valid build and not crippled due to std. The same goes for the Battlemaster, Cataphract etc pp.

This is the reason why Ghost Heat was a shite solution for the heat system - hey you can't fire all 5 but 3 and 2 doesn't matter much either.... you have delivered the damage in the time of a single cER beam.
But I don't think that the solution can be found within weapon stats - even a heat increase towards 8 or even 9 for the LPL. (i think its absolut necessary with the current burn duration))

Thats why I think simple math for the heat system and such build is a thing of the past (not enough heatsinks to support the weapons)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 01 June 2017 - 11:20 PM.

[Khobai]

ghost heat could work if they closed all the loopholes.

like being able to fire 3 ISLPL then 2 ISLPL a half second later to avoid the ghost heat. but youre still pretty much doing all the damage into one location because of the immensely short beam durations.

or like being able to combine gauss with PPCs to still deliver massive PPFLD while circumventing ghost heat. thats probably the biggest loophole.

yeah PGI tried to fix it with energy draw, but that solution was bad, because adding a second draw system on top of the heat draw system was just unintuitive.

Edited by Khobai, 01 June 2017 - 11:27 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Khobai, on 01 June 2017 - 11:24 PM, said:

yeah PGI tried to fix it with energy draw, but that solution was bad, because adding a second draw system on top of the heat draw system was just unintuitive.

Yep its a pitty that they didn't used that development for a "good" heat system.
I had the idea that the ED draw was the "heat sink" and the standard heat bar the "radiatior"

When you fire a gun heat goes up in the "heat sink" based on number of heatsinks the bar degrade fast - during that time the heat "bleed" into the Mech -( radiator)

The more heatsinks you have the less heat will be bleed in the Mech. However that heat in the radiator will be dissipated much slower.
here a quick example
AWS 8Q- with 28 DHS (ok for heatsink, better for radiating)
3:2 combination, and stagger fire each PPC on its own

Cicada 10 DHS 1 ERPPC - the heatsinks cool down to zero in the time the ERPPC recharges, but radiation is the *****
2 ERPPC 10 DHS obviously undersinked - first Alpha is shutdown after 4sec for the next 10sec

100% radiator at 30 points = shutdown and it keeps there as long its above 30.

[Khobai]

Quote

100% radiator at 30 points = shutdown and it keeps there as long its above 30.

30 heat cap is not the way to fix things either. all that would do is force people to use dual guass + dual cerppc all the time. since thats exactly 30 heat.

again at this point, the least involved and best way to fix things is weapon based mechanics that lower pinpoint damage and force damage to spread around more. more of the mechanics that we already have like ripple fire, burst fire, beam duration, etc...

the most broken weapons in the game now are ones that dont use those mechanics and allow people to vomit all their damage into one location. like cgauss, CSPL/ISLPL, etc...

CSPL/ISLPL simply need a longer beam duration. Their beam duration is way too short. The whole purpose of beam duration was to balance the hitscan nature of lasers, so having a laser with very short beam duration is counterintuitive to balancing lasers.

While I think Gauss should do lower upfront damage (say 10-12 instead of 15) in exchange for armorpiercing and through armor crit utility (could ignore armor and do damage directly to structure and crit equipment without stripping the armor). They could probably even remove gauss chargeup then because the damage would be balanced.

Those mechanics wont stop the abuse of boating PPFLD weapons but they will limit their effectiveness at least.

Edited by Khobai, 02 June 2017 - 02:57 AM.

[El Bandito]

Mech Croissant, on 01 June 2017 - 11:02 PM, said:

But still, a Grasshopper can boat 5 lpl with a standard and still do 75+. I call that a valid build and not crippled due to std. The same goes for the Battlemaster, Cataphract etc pp.

Bullcrap. How in Periphery did you manage to make such a build work? In order for Grasshopper to move at 75 kph, you will need Std 300 engine at least. You can't fit 5xLPL with 300 Std engine, even if you strip off both arms and use Endo+Ferro. Not to mention you won't have any external heatsinks, which means there will be no sustain, what so ever.

[warner2]

You can put a standard engine in a Clan mech? I had no idea.

PGI should just implement one set of engines for use by both factions. You can have standard, light, and XL if you want, with their space / weight trade-offs, but simplify things in the name of balance and have one set of engines and one set of rules.

We'd still be playing a BattleTech game.

[ForceUser]

El Bandito, on 02 June 2017 - 03:02 AM, said:

Bullcrap. How in Periphery did you manage to make such a build work? In order for Grasshopper to move at 75 kph, you will need Std 300 engine at least. You can't fit 5xLPL with 300 Std engine, even if you strip off both arms and use Endo+Ferro. Not to mention you won't have any external heatsinks, which means there will be no sustain, what so ever.

He must have gotten confused with ERLL or LL as 5 of those are pretty legit builds on Grasshopper with STD engine (CT energy hardpoint), but yea, not 5 LPLs. He can do 4 LPLs with a STD 300 though.

[ForceUser]

warner2, on 02 June 2017 - 03:22 AM, said:

You can put a standard engine in a Clan mech? I had no idea.

PGI should just implement one set of engines for use by both factions. You can have standard, light, and XL if you want, with their space / weight trade-offs, but simplify things in the name of balance and have one set of engines and one set of rules.

We'd still be playing a BattleTech game.

Slippery slope. Why not just standardize all tech across the board then? All other avenues needs to be explored first before just making everything the same. a comprehensive review of Engines is on the table already, once LFEs are in. Perfect time to evaluate how to balance each engine while still keeping flavor.

[Zergling]

Mech Croissant, on 01 June 2017 - 10:38 PM, said:

I have a KDK-2 build with 2 erl, 2 erm and a lpl in the center.

Please don't use terrible builds as an example of anything, except for how to play the game badly.

Mech Croissant, on 01 June 2017 - 11:02 PM, said:

On the IS side, I regularily take std engine (for example all my cw builds use std). So, with the LFE coming this july, it will be a HUGE boost for all of my IS mechs.

I don't think you realise just how little tonnage is gained by using a LFE.

Mech Croissant, on 01 June 2017 - 11:02 PM, said:

But still, a Grasshopper can boat 5 lpl with a standard and still do 75+

Like hell it can; the best the Grasshopper can reach with 5x Large Pulse Lasers is a 280 rated standard engine, unless it starts stripping armor off the torsos locations.

Even with all Speed Tweak nodes, that is only 69.7 kph, definitely not '75+'.

[Karl Streiger]

Khobai, on 02 June 2017 - 02:49 AM, said:

30 heat cap is not the way to fix things either. all that would do is force people to use dual guass + dual cerppc all the time. since thats exactly 30 heat.

again at this point, the least involved and best way to fix things is weapon based mechanics that lower pinpoint damage and force damage to spread around more. more of the mechanics that we already have like ripple fire, burst fire, beam duration, etc...

the most broken weapons in the game now are ones that dont use those mechanics and allow people to vomit all their damage into one location. like cgauss, CSPL/ISLPL, etc...

CSPL/ISLPL simply need a longer beam duration. Their beam duration is way too short. The whole purpose of beam duration was to balance the hitscan nature of lasers, so having a laser with very short beam duration is counterintuitive to balancing lasers.

While I think Gauss should do lower upfront damage (say 10-12 instead of 15) in exchange for armorpiercing and through armor crit utility (could ignore armor and do damage directly to structure and crit equipment without stripping the armor). They could probably even remove gauss chargeup then because the damage would be balanced.

Those mechanics wont stop the abuse of boating PPFLD weapons but they will limit their effectiveness at least.

no its not a 30 heat threshold - like it is currently.
The developed two bars for energy draw but instead to use the working heat - they've taken another system - and soon they realized that they needed a dozen different calculations for all different weapon systems - of course because heat inherits those values already - (exception of the Gauss)

so you keep heat - you add two dissipation values - one dependend on the number and type of heatsinks (1 SHS might store 0.4 heat per second, and radiate 0.1 heat per second. 1 DHS store 0.8 heat per second but also radiate only for 0.1 heat per second)

For example the AWS-8Q - as long as his heat sink bar is not over 28points he can radiate heat as fast as it bleeds into his Mech.
The AWS-9Q can only radiate for 20point but can store heat much faster so the DHS would allow him to be more the kind of a front loaded fighter (firing all 3 ERPPCs would overheat him after 3seconds still)

The system is just a rough draft - the result of many many ideas of the last years - but even after the first glance it could be promissing.

Test for your own.

(1 SHS might store 0.4 heat per second, and radiate 0.1 heat per second. 1 DHS store 0.8 heat per second but also radiate only for 0.1 heat per second)
Weapon heat is doubled
10% of the heatsink bar bleed into the radiation per second (30 heatsink = +3 for the radiation area, when you dissipate 10 heat in the next second - you have 20 heatsink thats +2 for the radiators (-1) for the radiate value)