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Battletech Table Top Veterans: Is Clan/late Era Tech More Fun To Play With?


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#41 Karl Streiger

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 10:39 PM

Everybody starts in TT with customisation - because its so a cool feature - and of course the first thing you do is to min max the stuff (Clan ER Laser with TC + Ferro Lamelor on Atlas)
Second stage is to add some flavour to it (drop LBX on the Zeus X for a Rotary)
Third stage is to use Stock Mechs but using your own consideration
Final - is a random assignment (sometimes you were given a lance were you can't win)

Offtopic:
And I would disagree about the engine - (but I would like to tweak the kph - MW4 like instead)
The fixed rating was a question of the hex based table top - it is not necessary in a game were you use inch or a different scale

about customisation - I think the game would have been better when you don't need to buy a weapon and keep it in your inventory but you would pay a "customisation" price when switching.

the idea of customisation points has some merit - with increased difficulties of changing (Strategic Operation Refit Kits) you spend more points.
Of course in a perfect universe - we would be provided with a game were the change between SHS and DHS is not a nobrainer.
(I know there are builds with SHS that are cooler compared to a similar DHS build [when you totally ignore the weight])
If you add ES - (why keep the slots - why not make it less durable?)
..
..
..
last not least the MW4 HP system did several things right (and with some working a similar system and PGIs weapon visuals would have become a killer feature - but as so many things in MWO - the ship sailed the harbor long ago

Edited by Karl Streiger, 10 August 2017 - 10:43 PM.


#42 Metus regem

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:35 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 10 August 2017 - 10:39 PM, said:

Everybody starts in TT with customisation - because its so a cool feature - and of course the first thing you do is to min max the stuff (Clan ER Laser with TC + Ferro Lamelor on Atlas)
Second stage is to add some flavour to it (drop LBX on the Zeus X for a Rotary)
Third stage is to use Stock Mechs but using your own consideration
Final - is a random assignment (sometimes you were given a lance were you can't win)

Offtopic:
And I would disagree about the engine - (but I would like to tweak the kph - MW4 like instead)
The fixed rating was a question of the hex based table top - it is not necessary in a game were you use inch or a different scale

about customisation - I think the game would have been better when you don't need to buy a weapon and keep it in your inventory but you would pay a "customisation" price when switching.

the idea of customisation points has some merit - with increased difficulties of changing (Strategic Operation Refit Kits) you spend more points.
Of course in a perfect universe - we would be provided with a game were the change between SHS and DHS is not a nobrainer.
(I know there are builds with SHS that are cooler compared to a similar DHS build [when you totally ignore the weight])
If you add ES - (why keep the slots - why not make it less durable?)
..
..
..
last not least the MW4 HP system did several things right (and with some working a similar system and PGIs weapon visuals would have become a killer feature - but as so many things in MWO - the ship sailed the harbor long ago



About the engine changing, it actually makes a lot of sens to not be able to. For example, look at the body shape of the Wolverine 7M and that of the Griffin 3Mm both use a 275XL, yet both of those engines are made by different manufactures, that means that they might not fit the same way between the two mechs. A real world example of this would be take the V6 engine out of a V6 2017 Mustang and try to make it fit in to the engine compartment of a V6 2017 Challenger, it doesn't work.

Mechs are not giant cavernous things that the mech lab portrays them as, with the exception of the Orion as it is called out in fluff as such, I honestly expect them to be more akin to this once the armour palates are pulled:

Posted Image

Where almost every internal cubic inch is used to mount the stock equipment.


Look at something like the Atlas with that hip mounted AC/20, that entire weapon system must be wrapped around in some serious convoluted way inside that mech to fit, as it accounts for 14% of the mechs weight....

#43 AncientRaig

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 06:10 PM

As someone who grew up on MW3 and MW4, many of my favorite mechs come from the 3050s and 3060s. For a long time all I knew was Clan and post-Clan technology. That said, after I got more into Battletech and began playing more, T1 tech became a lot more appealing to me. The careful balancing act of customizing, or even just choosing, a mech was far more interesting than the simplified customization of T2 and beyond. And playing the game with T1 tech requires more thought. Heat management is harder, weapons are limited, mechs are slower and more fragile. At this point super stock is the way I usually play, even in MWO. It's fun to have to work that extra bit harder to make a lot of the Succession War IS loadouts work with only slight modification.

#44 Mechwarrior4670152

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 11:44 PM

View PostSidefire, on 12 August 2017 - 06:10 PM, said:

As someone who grew up on MW3 and MW4, many of my favorite mechs come from the 3050s and 3060s. For a long time all I knew was Clan and post-Clan technology. That said, after I got more into Battletech and began playing more, T1 tech became a lot more appealing to me. The careful balancing act of customizing, or even just choosing, a mech was far more interesting than the simplified customization of T2 and beyond. And playing the game with T1 tech requires more thought. Heat management is harder, weapons are limited, mechs are slower and more fragile. At this point super stock is the way I usually play, even in MWO. It's fun to have to work that extra bit harder to make a lot of the Succession War IS loadouts work with only slight modification.

Pretty much the same here.
My introduction to the series was Mechwarrior 2 (still haven't gotten my hands on Mech2 Mercs) but I have so far found (outside a few designs) the T1 game in the TT to be my favorite (and great fun in stock matches here)

#45 Metus regem

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 08:57 AM

View PostWence the Wanderer, on 12 August 2017 - 11:44 PM, said:

Pretty much the same here.
My introduction to the series was Mechwarrior 2 (still haven't gotten my hands on Mech2 Mercs) but I have so far found (outside a few designs) the T1 game in the TT to be my favorite (and great fun in stock matches here)



If you want to have a real laugh in a T1 game, get a copy of TRO 3025 that has the LAMs in it, with the current rule set making all LAMs (Land Air Mechs) when in Air Mech mode use the WiGE (Wing in Ground Effect) movement profile, they border on over powered for anything but a slug fest game. As they get up to 15 hex movement, with 5 required in a strait line to maintain the movement profile.

The other amusing thing about LAMs is that most people have never fought them or used them so they don't know how to effectively deal with them.

#46 AncientRaig

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 12:48 PM

View PostMetus regem, on 13 August 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:



If you want to have a real laugh in a T1 game, get a copy of TRO 3025 that has the LAMs in it, with the current rule set making all LAMs (Land Air Mechs) when in Air Mech mode use the WiGE (Wing in Ground Effect) movement profile, they border on over powered for anything but a slug fest game. As they get up to 15 hex movement, with 5 required in a strait line to maintain the movement profile.

The other amusing thing about LAMs is that most people have never fought them or used them so they don't know how to effectively deal with them.

As long as you never get shot at, or don't have a conversion glitch that could be OP, as long as you only use the Phoenix Hawk LAM. None of the other LAMs had weapons with more range than a medium laser.

#47 Metus regem

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 01:03 PM

View PostSidefire, on 13 August 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

As long as you never get shot at, or don't have a conversion glitch that could be OP, as long as you only use the Phoenix Hawk LAM. None of the other LAMs had weapons with more range than a medium laser.


As I said for anything other than a slug match... An objective based operation is where they shine.

#48 Karl Streiger

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 10:33 PM

I did play my first Alpha Strike game yesterday... against my son (5 years) and as usual i get my *** handed out. (Never play a game of luck vs a child)
At the current state the time is irrelevant but with several hundred MechWarrior DA miniatures at hand it will be DarkAge for sure.
At with the increased scale his whole room become a battlefield (range rule of thumb - when short range is now 12 instead of 6 inch and long range 96 instead 48....

I might made some mistakes while applying damage but and I'm pretty sure that the AS-Calculation on MUL is wrong for the Jupiter 4 (not to mention that it does not translate somehow correctly)

#49 Mechwarrior4670152

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 09:53 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 13 August 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

The other amusing thing about LAMs is that most people have never fought them or used them so they don't know how to effectively deal with them.

I do have the old 3025 TRO (has the image pages for the OST mechs shuffled up)
But the starter kit I got that covers the basic rules doesn't even mention LAMs, and getting the rest of the rulebooks is still rather out of budget.

#50 Metus regem

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 10:16 AM

View PostWence the Wanderer, on 14 August 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

I do have the old 3025 TRO (has the image pages for the OST mechs shuffled up)
But the starter kit I got that covers the basic rules doesn't even mention LAMs, and getting the rest of the rulebooks is still rather out of budget.



Yea.. LAMs advanced, under the old system they were level 3 rules... Just don't try using them with out the higher level rules other wise they are a waste of BV.

#51 Brain Cancer

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 02:10 PM

View PostOld MW4 Ranger, on 20 July 2017 - 02:29 AM, said:

all this new Tech in TT only moneysink , -buy the new Ugly miniatures from the ugly Mechs thats have all the big fat Weapons ,and the TRO and the new Rulebooks and Novels with a 12 second Fights over 20 Booksides..Buy a Mechpack


I'd disagree, other than the joy of Clantech being a perpetual "fast mode" compared to the original game.

Jihad-era Inner Sphere fights are rather fun with the new toys, things just degenerate if you introduce superaccurate Clan pilots, frequently in pulseboats.

#52 Gaius Cavadus

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 09:56 PM

No, clan tech is not more fun. Not at all. IS level 1 (3025) tech is by far the most balanced and requires the most out of the player to win battles. IS level 2 is mostly fine as well.

Clans tanked the game's balance from day one and they were just conceptually ill-conceived in terms of their tech.

The lore of the clans was fine, whatever, but the lasting effect of the tech and the game having to push forward with competing (and one obviously superior) tech bases has been huge detriment to BattleTech and, perhaps more so, the Mechwarrior games.

#53 Brain Cancer

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 02:33 PM

Arguably, the worst error FASA made was changing the Clans from Star League tech to Clantech as we know it. It's been screwed up ever since.

#54 Dr Hobo

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 10:56 PM

I prefer up to the clan invasion.

The clans made me walk away from TT. I couldn't enjoy it anymore it wasn't fun even when playing to the lore.

Jihad and Dark Ages has it's moments but it gets kinda weird.

Clan invasion years are awful. Unless you specifically play to the lorenthen it's tolerable

#55 SilentScreamer

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 11:52 AM

My favorite era are the 3rd and 4th Succession Wars due to 3025 tech ruleset. Easy to remember and keep track of mechs, less special equipment+rules and deadly AMMO EXPLOSIONS!! I have tried Clan era and jihad era games...it just doesn't flow as well.

(Old post from three years ago, but same topic.... https://mwomercs.com...for-battletech/ )

Edited by SilentScreamer, 30 October 2017 - 11:53 AM.


#56 Akillius

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 05:47 PM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 01 June 2017 - 05:33 AM, said:

One of the things I am wondering about regarding the evolution of the Battletech technology is - where the Clans (and even the Helm Memory Core technology) just built in to sell new material via power creep, or did it also address perceived flaws about the game so far?

Basically with XL Engines and Endo-Steel, mechs can start loading up more weapons than before ,and with double heat sinks they can also afford to do it. Mechs can also get faster. Clan Tech even add additional range to most weapons.

These are clear examples of power creep, but if BT veterans look back - was it also more enjoyable to play the game with such mechs? Did the original rules feel limiting?


I stopped playing TT within a year after clans in 1990 (so by 1991)
Before that BT was like early D&D and the later AD&D (before AD&D 2) where it was on the GM to use their imagination and come up with a good game, story, opposition that wasn't too hard nor too easy, etc.
The GM's ability to follow the old* law books adage of "this is but a guide" became a paint by numbers thing much like how law books are treated today.
*Defining old here as meaning in North America during the wild west days when the first law book (not sure what edition it stopped at) actually had "this is but a guide" printed in the front.

Don't know what the game developers had in mind.
However they had introduced IS dbl HS the previous year as 1 ton, 3 slot and it was so rarely seen in any TT game that when it or any appeared they where quickly sold/traded or the GMs made (via npc merchant) offers that were often seen as a fantastic amount of cbills, I only recall that several dbl hs could pay for a new smaller mech (whether light or medium I don't recall).

It was fun, originally most missions were fighting over water.
BT2 carried on in the Battledroids tradition but the stories and succession lines etc were expanding.
FASA sold magazines and books and those small novels that highlighted 1 particular type of mech (wasn't many types originally), lead figurines, extra maps and score sheets where sold separately (but we all photocopied the generic mech score sheets), etc.
FASA sold StarTrek magazines and was involved in other things...
So I've no doubt it was some attempt to push for additional sales.

In my particular case I purchased Mechwarrior 3050 and some other stuff from them and found it was divisive materials and the clans caused many arguments which honestly I see to this day in the forums. Clan mechs were twice as fast, had double the armor, dumped twice the heat, shot twice as far, parts used half the slots and used half the tonnage of old parts, etc. (That was the generalizm I heard used back then on several occasions.)

At the time plenty of us (in the groups I hung out with) saw it as a blatant money grab, because to play with the new mechs you/your gm would need the new books. But as time moved on I now wonder.

Did FASA attempt to simply kill off the original mechs just to avoid what happened later with the Harmony Gold lawsuit and the Unseen???

But as others already wrote, you'll only find out if the original creators (Jordan) can tell you, maybe.

Edited by Max Rickson, 01 November 2017 - 05:51 PM.






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