422 replies to this topic

[Antares102]

James The Fox Dixon, on 01 June 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

I gave you hard facts and you didn't like them. No, you cried even harder and you pouted.

I asked you questions to test your knowledge of the game. Since you failed to answer those questions regarding your claim about having better tactics only tells me and others that you don't have the slightest clue about them.

Sun Tzu and the Art of War applies here as it does to real world battles. I asked you those questions based upon it. Since you have nothing to add to this conversation and just want to prove the OP right then have a good day.

Whatever man.. your map knowledge for LRMs test proves nothing.
And invoking Sun Tzu does not make you the god of MWO.
Show me statistics, facts something I can comprehend.
And for the love of the god you pray to .. play a 1vs1 with me.

Edited by Antares102, 01 June 2017 - 10:47 AM.

[Lorcryst NySell]

Antares102, on 01 June 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

Uhm... twitch?
Hm... youtube?
Hmm.. lets see... FOCKING PLAYING WITH THEM?

You know how to learn from the best? Proton for example?
If he plays serious builds just join up with him, follow him and attack any target that he attacks.
Got a few nice runs like this with many top comp players.
You will learn stuff believe me.

Twitch and YouTube you say ? So you expect PGI employees to watch hours of videos to glean some miniscule insight into what maybe 10% of the playerbase do ?

I do learn stuff on a daily basis, every match I drop in in fact, but those Rare Unicorns have to accept to step down from their elitist pedestal and actually take some time to teach the potatoes like me ... or else, noobs, potatoes and bads will stay noobs, potatoes and bads forever, being curbstomped by "better" (that is subjective) players that are sooooo high on their own epeens that they don't see anything else.

Vxheous Kerensky, on 01 June 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

They do share their knowledge. Gman has metamechs, EmP runs church of skill (usually every monday you can go on their teamspral and they'll group with you and play for a few hours, no prior aquaintance needed.) SjR does the same thing (or they used to). If you care to improve in the game, even casually, there are so many places to learn. Even go and watch Proton stream, and watch his positioning and decision making

That I didn't know, and I'm glad that I have learned it.

See ? My point about being willing to learn from my betters ? When people stop being salty, hollier-than-thou and insulting, some GOOD things come out !

[James The Fox Dixon]

Antares102, on 01 June 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

Whatever man.. your map knowledge for LRMs test proves nothing.
Show me statistics, facts something I can comprehend.
And for the love of the god you pray to .. play a 1vs1 with me.

Awww poor baby, I'm sorry that you're crying. On the bright side you just proved the OP right about there being real bigotry against LRM players. You really didn't think that through did you?

I'd rather play against a camel then you. Sorry, but you don't exactly sound like the most pleasant person to be around. I bet you lose your temper and scream when your team loses in random drops.

[Antares102]

James The Fox Dixon, on 01 June 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

Awww poor baby, I'm sorry that you're crying. On the bright side you just proved the OP right about there being real bigotry against LRM players. You really didn't think that through did you?

I'd rather play against a camel then you. Sorry, but you don't exactly sound like the most pleasant person to be around. I bet you lose your temper and scream when your team loses in random drops.

This is an online game in which we can resolve an issue by using the game given to use and prove ones superiority without harming each other. I would call this most civilised just like playing a game of chess.
Only a true coward would reject a game of chess fearing that he might lose, wouldn't he?

And yes.. I concede that I have a bias against LRM players.
Because those guys mess up most of my games.

Edited by Antares102, 01 June 2017 - 10:52 AM.

[Lorcryst NySell]

Deathlike, on 01 June 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

What would happen if a Tier 5 unicorn player plays against the Tier 1 guys... hmm.

I've already heard the horror/farming stories from players with alt accounts in the lower tiers... watching good play is different from watching LRMs hit obstacles like buildings or terrain.

Since I've suffered some matches were a known and identified Tier 1 player was in the OpFor while I'm still a lowly Tier 5, I can tell you exactly what happens :

The "elite" player will focus fire on weak components, rack in massive damage and kills and induce a panic/hackusation in the lowly noobs, said noobs will then try to complain about "no fair MM" on the forums and will be subsequently drowned in "git gud ya scrub" posts.

Elitism and extremism are never good things : they just mean that those less able but willing will be left in the dust, ensuring that the Elite only encouters the Elite, perpetuating the vicious circle.

Edited by Lorcryst NySell, 01 June 2017 - 10:57 AM.

[Xiphias]

Curccu, on 01 June 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

That is not entirely true.
WDMC has used LRMS at least... twice in MRBC over past few years, 1st we won other we lost by caps in conquest after decimating enemy team, excluding their other light mech because ran out of sticks to throw at them

I said serious comp play, EUs don't count .

In all seriousness though, yes my point is a bit of an overstatement, QQ also ran LRMs on a Hunchback in MRBC at least once. On certain maps at certain times in the meta LRMs can be used. It's extremely situational though and it's easier to generalize to make a point than to qualify every statement. They weren't used at the world championships which I think speaks for the effectiveness.

[Lorcryst NySell]

Antares102, on 01 June 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

Only a true coward would reject a game of chess fearing that he might lose, wouldn't he?

This is too good to ignore ...

I've played chess a grand total of two times in my 43 years of life.
I never understood the rules.
So of course I'll reject a game of chess to prove my skills/points, since I have NO skill whatsoever in chess.
I don't fear that I might lose, I *KNOW* I *WILL* lose.

So I'm a coward by refusing to give myself up like a sacrificial lamb ?

[Antares102]

Lorcryst NySell, on 01 June 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

Elitism and extremism are never good things : they just mean that those less able but willing will be left in the dust, ensuring that the Elite only encouters the Elite, perpetuating the vicious circle.

This is true but only if the best are intermixed with the newcomers.
There are no proper barriers to protect both the bottom from the top players and vice versa.
The Tier system to protect bottom from the top players is a joke.
Thus we have tons of salt trucks delivering their load into the forums every day.

[Ced Riggs]

Lorcryst NySell, on 01 June 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

This is too good to ignore ...

I've played chess a grand total of two times in my 43 years of life.
I never understood the rules.
So of course I'll reject a game of chess to prove my skills/points, since I have NO skill whatsoever in chess.
I don't fear that I might lose, I *KNOW* I *WILL* lose.

So I'm a coward by refusing to give myself up like a sacrificial lamb ?

So, to apply your words to the situation at hand, James' reasons to reject a match against Antares would be poor knowledge of the game to be played..?

[Antares102]

Lorcryst NySell, on 01 June 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

This is too good to ignore ...

I've played chess a grand total of two times in my 43 years of life.
I never understood the rules.
So of course I'll reject a game of chess to prove my skills/points, since I have NO skill whatsoever in chess.
I don't fear that I might lose, I *KNOW* I *WILL* lose.

So I'm a coward by refusing to give myself up like a sacrificial lamb ?

Uhm... replace chess with MWO..
It was just an example for how civilised people can prove a point in their field of competitiveness.
If you claim superior MWO game sense and are not willing to prove your point with a bunch MWO matches you are a coward yes.

Edited by Antares102, 01 June 2017 - 11:01 AM.

[sycocys]

I'd just like to hear how he thinks LRMs are supposed to work effectively on Forest Colony.

Maybe I guess if the entire opposing team had a stroke and walked out into the ocean, otherwise the entire rest of the map is one giant LRM counter.

[Vxheous]

James The Fox Dixon, on 01 June 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

I gave you hard facts and you didn't like them. No, you cried even harder and you pouted.

I asked you questions to test your knowledge of the game. Since you failed to answer those questions regarding your claim about having better tactics only tells me and others that you don't have the slightest clue about them.

Sun Tzu and the Art of War applies here as it does to real world battles. I asked you those questions based upon it. Since you have nothing to add to this conversation and just want to prove the OP right then have a good day.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

Funny you talk about Sun Tzu, but this is what Comp pre-match prep is. A well prepared comp team forms a plan of attack, and then tests it against every conceivable play that the enemy might do (yes, even lrms). They know the timings to get to caps, they know the timings to get to the optimal locations, they know and practice how to funnel and enemy into a poor position, they have contingency plans and fallback points based on every scenario that the enemy can bring. Not only is their piloting skills better, their decision making is better because of all the practice time they have put in.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Vellron2005, on 01 June 2017 - 05:50 AM, said:

Hello all.

This is an open request to PGI, to give us some statistical data about "weapon effectiveness" and overall performance of various weapons.

It is aimed at getting some actual proof of the effectiveness or lack thereof of LRMs.

This love/hate LRMs has gotten to the point of racism, and it's making the community extremely salty, divided, bitter and unhealthy.

I would really like to see PGI intervene and step in, because we LRM users are seriously starting to feel bullied, both in-game and on the forums.

I don't know about you, but I'm kinda tired of all the LRM threads, and the bile being spat there, and also seeing this in-game.

The name calling and insults directed at LRM users are getting to the point of harassment, and despite numerous reporting for harassment and non-constructive behavior during matches, it's only getting worse.

I've seen friendships end and units broken over the LRM issue, and neither side can ever get any ground in the never-ending argument.

So please PGI, I emplore you, give us some statistical data about the usage of LRMs compared to other weapons:

1) Like how many kills do LRMs get compared to gauss, PPC, ERLL, Mediums lasers and such..

2) How much damage dealt compared to other weapon systems?

3) How many top-damage dealers are LRM users compared to non-lrm users?

4) How does all of this relate to PSR Tiers?

5) What does PGI think about LRM boats, and LRMs in general?

6) Average LRM ammo spent vs damage dealt?

7) Average damage done / 5 LRM tubes?

8) Most frequent LRM launcher used?

9) Most frequent mechs with LRM's installed for Clans and for IS?

10) Average number of LRM missiles downed by AMS?

Let's settle this stupid argument with some ACTUAL DATA once and for all!

P.S.

Please, people, don't spam this thread with more love/hate LRMs bile.. plenty of threads already available for that. Voice your opinion of LRMs in one of those..

Here, only statistics and comments of statistics!

PGI please, give us the facts!

It isn't always about effectiveness. It sometimes is about the effect it has on the players playing the game. Let me step aside from MWO a minute and explain.

See there is this game call World of Tanks and it has a class of vehicles called Arty. If you look at the numbers alone, Arty isn't really overpowering or performing better than the other classes of vehicle however the mechanic behind the use of Arty induces rage and frustration in a good portion of the games player base. Basically it is an indirect fire weapon, fired out of line of sight and can kill or cripple the other vehicles in a very short span of time. There are all kind of counters against arty things like hard cover, making sure your not spotted by other enemy vehicles, driving erratically, etc and arty isn't all that accurate but when it does make contact, it literally ruins the other player game play experience and what is worse, since arty can strike from outside of line of sight, the player getting hit by it can't fight back.

This this sound familiar? It should because it is the exact same mechanic as LRMs which have the same exact issue, the feeling of helpless when you get shot at and crippled or killed by an enemy player who you can't fire back at or otherwise actively counter.

That is the problem, not effectiveness, rather that feeling of helplessness as your mech gets picked apart by something you can't fight back against. It is frustration and rage inducing and will cause players to quit faster than PGI telling everyone they are on an island and don't know jack hehe.

This is why LRMs need to be dialed back or at least there needs to be some mechanic that allows a player to feel they are in control or have some sort of counter to being picked apart by an enemy out of sight on the other side of the map. Radar Dep modules provided this call it "Feeling" that you had such a counter, i.e. you felt that as long as you could break LOS, you could protect your mech, even if you didn't have hard cover available. Without easy access to Radar Dep, players have lost this counter or feeling or whatever and now feel that they are pretty helpless a being able counter against LRMs, therefore frustration and rage builds up when it happens, player become vocal about LRMs being OP or needing a huge re-work, etc.

[BadgerBeard]

The two main uses for Lrm's as far as I'm concerned.

1. Teaching new players to Look Up!..if no UAV present...Look around!..where's the spotter?

2.Psych warfare ( again primarily useful against newer players). Scare the bejeezuz out of the heavies etc. so they stay put behind a rock while your team moves up with less incoming fire...this requires a basic level of teamwork, it's not that effective usually.

As far as useful kills/ damage go, not so much. Sure I've had decent damage numbers, and even a few kills ( and the odd solo kill against assaults who really shouldn't be standing out in the open like they were)...but I don't kid myself that it was as useful to the team as taking out a mech faster with more accurate fire.

But hey, I've been getting silly match results running multi-AMS mediums as cover for the big-boys, so I suppose I shouldn't complain about LRM boats on the enemy team as they are certainly helping to bump me up a tier (which on reflection might not be the best idea

[Lorcryst NySell]

Ced Riggs, on 01 June 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

So, to apply your words to the situation at hand, James' reasons to reject a match against Antares would be poor knowledge of the game to be played..?

I won't even try to fathom what other people reasons are to reject or accept anything. Each of us humans has a past, a life, a brain, beliefs, preferences and much more that allow us to make decisions.

I was just poking a bit of sarcasm at the use of chess as the great equalizer ... in centuries past, chess *WAS* the true test of skill of Generals, because they were required to learn and play it during their military training. Now ? Not so much.

If anything, I agree that players arguing both sides of a situation and disagreeing, at least in this game, should create a Private Lobby, invite lots of impartial observers, and duel it out.

IF THOSE PLAYERS HAVE A COMPARABLE SKILL LEVEL.

Pitching an "Elite" against a "Potato" is a sure way to see a one-sided curbstomp.

I know in advance that if I were to duel anyone in this thread, I would be soundly trounced. No point in trying to prove otherwise.

As I said before, I'm well aware of my limitations (doesn't prevent me from enjoying the game and slowly, oh so slowly, getting better).

[Antares102]

Lorcryst NySell, on 01 June 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:

I won't even try to fathom what other people reasons are to reject or accept anything. Each of us humans has a past, a life, a brain, beliefs, preferences and much more that allow us to make decisions.

I was just poking a bit of sarcasm at the use of chess as the great equalizer ... in centuries past, chess *WAS* the true test of skill of Generals, because they were required to learn and play it during their military training. Now ? Not so much.

If anything, I agree that players arguing both sides of a situation and disagreeing, at least in this game, should create a Private Lobby, invite lots of impartial observers, and duel it out.

IF THOSE PLAYERS HAVE A COMPARABLE SKILL LEVEL.

Pitching an "Elite" against a "Potato" is a sure way to see a one-sided curbstomp.

I know in advance that if I were to duel anyone in this thread, I would be soundly trounced. No point in trying to prove otherwise.

As I said before, I'm well aware of my limitations (doesn't prevent me from enjoying the game and slowly, oh so slowly, getting better).

Yes... points you made accepted.
However, you have not claimed superior game sense like James did. You just defended LRMs to some point which is ok for me.
I would never ask for a duel against somebody knowing his skills level and not claiming superiorty.
Only the big mouth cowards make my blood boil, forcing me to beat on my chest and utter a challange.

Edited by Antares102, 01 June 2017 - 11:11 AM.

[Burke IV]

Ced Riggs, on 01 June 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

So, to apply your words to the situation at hand, James' reasons to reject a match against Antares would be poor knowledge of the game to be played..?

Either that or he doesnt fancy his LRMs in a 1v1. To be fair unless both side wer going to use them

[Vxheous]

Ced Riggs, on 01 June 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

So, to apply your words to the situation at hand, James' reasons to reject a match against Antares would be poor knowledge of the game to be played..?

checkmate

[Lorcryst NySell]

Burke IV, on 01 June 2017 - 11:15 AM, said:

Either that or he doesnt fancy his LRMs in a 1v1. To be fair unless both side wer going to use them

Vxheous Kerensky, on 01 June 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

checkmate

Maybe, but for one thing : I already explained in a post higher here that I wasn't passing judgement on Jame's decision to refuse the duel, just poking a bit of sarcasm on chess in particular.

Please don't take what I say/write out of context.

[edited to add]

Actually, if I could find another player as bad as me (see my post about equal player skills), I would welcome a duel where I could try my LRMs in 1v1 ... but keep in mind that even my dedicated LRM 'mechs (like my Hunchback 4J, the one with LRM 10 cooldown quirk) always have other weapon systems too !

Edited by Lorcryst NySell, 01 June 2017 - 11:27 AM.

[Strength Damage Cliff Racer]

Lurms are fine. The problem with these is NOT the imbalance of weapon (LRMs sport massive tradeoffs for massive advantages) but the flawed mentality of "I'll sit back there on the edge of my range hitting nothing because everyone hops into their ECM/under roof/behind wall/I just lose lock, lol"..
Solution to THIS problem is rather simple, actually. Remove aliases from LRM in flight after breaching 650 metres with no direct lock present. This way we kill 3 birds with one stone
1)AMS don't waste ammo on missiles which got little to no chance of hitting it's intended target
2)You can still do damage on long range (Just discouraged money-wise to do so)
3)We get soft ARTEMIS/TAG/ECM buff through increased/decreased money gain.

P.S. you haven't rocked hellbringer till you go in with 5 ERMLs blazing while chained 2xLRM20 obstructs their FOV by visions of hell themselves.