422 replies to this topic

[Burke IV]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 01 June 2017 - 07:38 AM, said:

Do you realize how much damage 1800 damage is in a quick match? It takes ~250 (might be higher average now with skill tree) average damage to kill a mech, which includes the mech being able to shed damage onto arms/side torsos and not getting completely CT cored every shot. Proton's damage would have theoretically equalled the amount of 7 mechs killed by himself, which means his 11 teammates combined would only have to account for 5 kills. It didn't happen, because that 1800 damage was spread over so many mech components that it was basically an inflated number.

I dont know mr proton so no offence is intended, but you appear to be saying he stood back like a spamlord instead of, dare i say it, LRM brawling. 1800 is hilarious numbers, did he do it on purpose?

[Coolant]

There are no stats needed for the worst part of LRM's and that is that pilots can stay behind cover and do damage to mechs without ever even needing to see other mechs.

I wish I could launch a UAV and then my lasers and ballistics arch over terrain to hit my target that I can't even see.

[FuhNuGi]

Roughneck45, on 01 June 2017 - 06:12 AM, said:

(Blah blah blah, nice words, overgeneralizing opinion)...

You could be the most skilled Lurmer in all of MWO and a player that knows how to use cover is going to avoid 90% of the damage you are putting out.

And a skilled Lurmer will either shift targets, or pin you behind the aforementioned cover and hold you there, negating your facetime demanding weapon system while the brawlers or lights come for you.

I would worry about facing the flavor of the month meta in my boat in a 1v1 match, but this is a team game and I use my missiles in conjunction with my team. My smoke and screen shake help them get hit less by direct fire weapons. The "incoming missile" warning helps my team by making guys run for cover. My damage helps them get kills... sometimes it is my kill... and for reference, I have brawling kills in my Boats, Lurm kills in the tunnel on Crimson at 200m and under HPG. I bumped my armor nodes for better facetime, share armor and make my own locks, and use yours.

Unfortunately, I do see the truth in that many LRM users do not use them well... in the same way I see guys with ER lasers and a way to sensitive mouse, gauss rifles at 2300m and so on.
Maybe instead of the now constant bashing on people using them wrong, offer help and suggestions on how they could use them better.

The constant bickering is not constructive and does nothing to strengthen the community.

Kind of like shoes... some people like adidas, some like nike... you don't get to tell me what shoes to wear either.

Besides, with upcoming tech, you will have other weapon systems to hurl salt upon... save some salt for then.

Edited by FuhNuGi, 01 June 2017 - 07:56 AM.

[Lorcryst NySell]

Aaaah my dear FuhNuGi, you're forgetting something :

LRMs are so bad that only bad players use them. Meaning that no good player has a clue on how to use them effectively.

I also did the "tunnel LRMs" trick, as well as making my missiles take corner turns and more, but I'm obviously a bad player that doesn't know how to meta and ppfld ... no skill here, nope, no situational awareness, no team mentality either, I'm a bad, evil, potato.

[Vxheous]

Burke IV, on 01 June 2017 - 07:50 AM, said:

I dont know mr proton so no offence is intended, but you appear to be saying he stood back like a spamlord instead of, dare i say it, LRM brawling. 1800 is hilarious numbers, did he do it on purpose?

Proton is EmP, and he definitely lrm brawled once it got to that (I mean he's on Polar Highlands)

Here's the video: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/124760801

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 01 June 2017 - 08:03 AM.

[Burke IV]

Ill watch that now.

Edited by Burke IV, 01 June 2017 - 08:04 AM.

[Lorcryst NySell]

Burke IV, on 01 June 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

By brawling i meant getting there with medium lasers or pulses and finishing crippled mechs off. It deflates the damage number.

That's what I do.

For me LRMs are a "force multiplier" : tenderize the OpFor while closing the distance, forcing opponents into cover, helping my team by that, and finally getting there to finish wounded/crippled 'mechs.

My favourite distance of engagement with my missiles 'mechs (usually a mix of LRMs and SRMs) is around 250m, but I think I'm a rare oddity ...

Edited by Lorcryst NySell, 01 June 2017 - 08:07 AM.

[Burke IV]

I wrote that before i saw his load out Half way thru two things strike me, that assult mech is rather manuverable and those LRMs seem to do a bit more damage than i remember them doing. Infact i think they fly noticably faster but that might be frame rate or flicker or sometihng. I can see why peopel might be complaing about them to be fair

The other team didnt seem very good either altho they made a fight at the end

Edited by Burke IV, 01 June 2017 - 08:16 AM.

[Vxheous]

Burke IV, on 01 June 2017 - 08:11 AM, said:

I wrote that before i saw his load out Half way thru two things strike me, that assult mech is rather manuverable and those LRMs seem to do a bit more damage than i remember them doing. Infact i think they fly noticably faster but that might be frame rate or flicker or sometihng. I can see why peopel might be complaing about them to be fair

This is from 3 months ago though

[King Kuranes]

Lorcryst NySell, on 01 June 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

Aaaah my dear FuhNuGi, you're forgetting something :

LRMs are so bad that only bad players use them. Meaning that no good player has a clue on how to use them effectively.

I also did the "tunnel LRMs" trick, as well as making my missiles take corner turns and more, but I'm obviously a bad player that doesn't know how to meta and ppfld ... no skill here, nope, no situational awareness, no team mentality either, I'm a bad, evil, potato.

I'm sorry, I really need to call you on this. The mental gymnastics are giving me a pulled back and sprained ACL.

Did it occur to you that the good players spend hours testing different weapon systems and combos. Maybe spent hours with the new skill tree to maximize. And through all that work never tested LRM's?

What's more likely, that every single good and above level player in the game has determined that LRMS are not a decent weapon system or you are the keeper of some arcane knowledge that none have yet grasped?

[Wyald Katt]

I don't think it's ever about good or decent players using LRMs; it's just the players that use them badly do so very badly. Like the memory scars you forever and taints everything else badly.

Edited by Wyald Katt, 01 June 2017 - 08:19 AM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Lorcryst NySell, on 01 June 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

Oh, I know that 1800 damage is huge. I also know that Proton is one of the best players.

And I also know that in that particular case, the other 11 players in his team were sitting on their hands.

1800 spread damage means everything in the OpFor is either open, cored, or cherry red. So no one capitalized on that and finished off the damaged 'mechs ~> loss.

Whole lot of lack of cooperation required in a team based game there... getting 1800 damage is only possible on a losing team that could not find their own @ss with both hands, a map, and their mothers. You can NOT win and still be doing 1800 damage even on Polar... your teammates while be removing the pieces off the board like they are supposed to be doing by "securing" the kills which results in the win long before 1800 total can be reached.

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 01 June 2017 - 08:22 AM.

[Mister Glitchdragon]

The salt has become intense, hasn't it?

I think much of its most recent manifestation has to do with the skill tree: players who wanted to skimp on radar derp nodes, and conversely enterprising players LRM-farming the skimpers.

Beyond this, I feel there's a weird brawler bias in this game, in which players who don't kit for distance engagements feel they have the right to tell everyone else on the team to stop what they're doing and trudge over open terrain beside them "sharing armor."

According to their bias, if everyone would quit fielding long-range weapons and stop using cover, the game would be better ('cause that's the way the game is meant to be played! It's the way THEY play it, see?). They can't really convince anyone to play this way using logic (because fighting from cover makes so much sense it's ludicrous to have to explain its merits) so they get salty over players who utilize terrain to stay in cover, and they get salty over players who build to fight from cover, and they resort to bullying in chat and in the forums and occasionally stoop to denying locks in the field, sabotaging their own team out of pure spite.

Part of the challenge of dropping solo is not knowing what kind of team you'll be fighting with. "PUG Life," as they say. Sometimes you drop with a bunch of brawlers and you're going to have to provide cover and draw fire while they work in close to the enemy without getting shredded, first (often --ironically-- by an enemy using LRMs). Sometimes you drop with a bunch of support builds, so you're going to have to defend their positions and spot for them. Deal with it.

We all have our preferred playstyle, and wouldn't it be awesome if everyone would just always play that way? But the thing is, in the solo queue, the only performance or behavior you have control over is your own. When you find yourself frustrated (as we all get, sometimes) and wanting to tell other players how to build or play, remember this and control yourself.

TLDR: If you can't enjoy yourself without micromanaging your teammates' playstyle, solo queue is not for you. Join a unit.

[kyfire]

Over my time playing MWO I have used LRMs in 159 matches, Fired a total of 54347 LRMs. Of those 54347 fired cRMs 14383 actually hit the target and generated 14412 damage. Now, in the same time span I have used Gauss in 144 matches and fired 2374 rounds. Of those 1234 were hits, generating 17333 damage.
What does this show or prove, you ask. Well, in 15 less matches, 51973 less rounds fired & 13149 less hits, I generated 2921 more in damage. IMO, that shows that for the number of shots fired vs hits and damage generated LRMs are a poor choice.
Does this mean LRMs are useless or worthless? No, LRMs can and do serve a purpose (maybe not in Comp play). They can and do generate damage, they can and do distract the enemy team ( by making them move into cover). Are LRMs OP? Not in the least.

[Burke IV]

http://www.imageuplo...o.uk/image/BXLd

I did that against bad players ages ago in a LRM huntsman, players on my team were bad too. Not saying it proves anything.

Edited by Burke IV, 01 June 2017 - 08:29 AM.

[B0oN]

If only more LRM players knew the ramifications of the word "selfsufficience" we wouldn´t be having yet another fruitless discussion about sense or nonsense of this weapon .

Or did any LRM player ever heard the laservomit guy besides him refuse to participate in the battle because he had no locks ?

[FuhNuGi]

Lorcryst NySell, on 01 June 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

Aaaah my dear FuhNuGi, you're forgetting something :

LRMs are so bad that only bad players use them. Meaning that no good player has a clue on how to use them effectively.

I also did the "tunnel LRMs" trick, as well as making my missiles take corner turns and more, but I'm obviously a bad player that doesn't know how to meta and ppfld ... no skill here, nope, no situational awareness, no team mentality either, I'm a bad, evil, potato.

I am sure, at your Tier, that you have plenty of experience to pass along to the player base... keep talking.

I know plenty of good players using LRMs... at your Tier, I am quite sure you see all weapon systems being used poorly.

[Mcgral18]

Lorcryst NySell, on 01 June 2017 - 07:31 AM, said:

I'll have to disagree with you on that point.

Balancing from the upper level leads to powercreep.

If everything has to perform at least as well as "the best thing", then everything is the best thing, you need another balance pass to even the odds, leading to not everything being the best thing, so another balance pass, etc.

I think that balancing a game on the worst thing is better, since you don't have an arms race to the best thing ...

But I also think that balance is a myth, never really reachable due to player's styles of play, lag spikes, FPS drops and the other myriads of problems online games have.

Same thing in tabletop miniature gaming.

If anything, making the "lowest tier" weapons/options viable should be the baseline for balance.

Balance means everything has a place. Not "we need to make everything better so the epeen warriors feel good".



Did he play alone against 12 players ?

No, eh ?

So he neither won nor lost the match, THE TEAM did that.

[Edited to add]

And with 1k of direct fire pin point damage, you can still lose a match. Been there, seen that.

My best damage score is around 875, I got 3 kills (2 solo) and a whole bunch of assists in that game, another player broke the 1K damage threshold, and we lost.

We were the only two players doing more than 150 damage on our team though, and the OpFor was well coordinated and took our team apart 'mech by 'mech.

So, again : Team > Meta > skills.

100% balance is impossible, but the gap between the isSPL and cSPL is just FAR too immense to be acceptable
In TT, they were both trash, but PGI DOUBLED the cSPL damage arbitrarily...and not for the isSPL
Outright Terribad balance


Also, nerfs are a thing. Balancing from the top means you find the best weapons and robots, and decide where you set the baseline.
You don't balance by Potato, the players who think the worst weapon in the game needs nerfs

Edited by Mcgral18, 01 June 2017 - 08:38 AM.

[VanillaG]

Coolant, on 01 June 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

There are no stats needed for the worst part of LRM's and that is that pilots can stay behind cover and do damage to mechs without ever even needing to see other mechs.

I wish I could launch a UAV and then my lasers and ballistics arch over terrain to hit my target that I can't even see.

And I wish all of my LRMs magically hit just one component on a mech every time I pressed the trigger. The only way a LRM player is standing behind cover and damaging an opponent is if the opponent is not in cover. If you are getting melted by LRMs you probably made a mistake and are now paying for it. That can either be doing a Leroy Jenkins across open ground or turtling up and getting rolled by an aggressive opponent. Knowing when to be aggressive and when to be defensive is critical part of the and LRMs help reinforce when should change modes.

People need to realize that sharing locks is the major aspect of Infowar in the game right now. Without lock sharing there is no reason to try to scout in a PUG match because eventually both teams will run into each other. Without the indirect fire capability LRMs just become an inferior LBX.

[GabrielSun]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 01 June 2017 - 07:24 AM, said:

It won't because a statistical damage number does not reflect effective damage. LRM boats can (and often do) generate a decent damage number for an average player, but it's overall effectiveness is sub-par. Proton was lrming with a Supernova awhile back (not sure if he's still doing it) for sh*ts and giggles, and putting up 1800 damage in a quick play and still losing the match. He could have easily done ~1K damage in a direct fire mech and most likely would've won same match.

You missed the point of of his observation about LRM 20s. His conclusion in the stream was that the 20s did a massive amount of damage, but spread the damage out far too much to be useful. Everyone who knows what they are doing would prefer pinpoint damage, but if someone can strip the 100+ armour off an atlas for me so I can crit his internals, I'm good with that.

The tide raises all boats.