422 replies to this topic

[Dago Red]

MischiefSC, on 14 June 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

5 MPLs will pull both arms off a cheetah very effectively - at which point its just 2 SPLs and 28 tons of frustrated impotence.

The bigger question is why bring the LRMs at all.

Then again I've got a lurm C4, EBJ and Highlander I take out for giggles and to reap the tears of bads sometimes.

Just for variety man. The only thing that I don't take for an occasional spin are Gauss and those I can use they just irritate me.

[evilauthor]

MischiefSC, on 14 June 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

5 MPLs will pull both arms off a cheetah very effectively - at which point its just 2 SPLs and 28 tons of frustrated impotence.

The bigger question is why bring the LRMs at all.

Indirect fire. It can be useful at 200 meters as at 500. More so even. Even for a mostly brawler build, an LRM gives you something to shoot at the enemy when you've ducked back behind cover and still have lock. Damage is damage, and the more I can inflict on the enemy without getting damaged in return, the closer I am to killing them.

This is one of the reasons I prefer "balanced builds". My "LRM Boats" carry some direct fire weapons (usually medium lasers, sometimes with SRMs added). My brawlers carry at least token LRMs, and so do my snipers. Poke out, fire, duck back behind cover, use LRMs while I still have lock. Sometimes I'll have lock for a looong while because I'm with my team. I still poke out from time to time.

And as others have said. When you're opened up and internals are red, LRMs allow you to fall back to the second line and still contribute to the fight instead of committing suicide by poking out yet again in order to try to find something to shoot at.

[PhoenixFire55]

Medicine Man, on 14 June 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

I get most of my kills in my LRM mechs. But only if I work for them.

What kills? ... 71 kills in 199 matches. One kill per three matches ...
Work harder I guess?

Medicine Man, on 14 June 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

I drive other types of mechs too. I'm good with everything but sniping as I don't have the patience for it.

Under 1.0 W/L and a whooping avg match score of 174 and you consider yourself "good with everything" ... k, lol.

Medicine Man, on 14 June 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

Also the lack of arm weapon convergence for long range ballistic sniping really pisses me off.

LOL ... lack of arm weapon convergence eh? ... Oh wait, you are serious, let me laugh even harder ... LMAO

Medicine Man, on 14 June 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

As for people who complain that LRM drivers are freeloading that is nonsense. The LRM driver is doing damage which splashes all over the target weakening him for others to destroy or cripple.

Or ... you know ... I can do the same amount of pinpoint damage to a targets CT and kill it instead of relying on others to actually do something useful.

Medicine Man, on 14 June 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

Not only that but LRM's force people into cover which allows brawlers mechs to get into position to pummel enemies at close range when used properly.

Yeah right, because if not for LRMs then all mechs would be just running around in the open.
Sigh ... you can't even grasp at how ridiculous you sound right now, can you?

Medicine Man, on 14 June 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

At the last for those who still whine about the lack of armor sharing and the supposed safety of being an LRM boat play it sometime. Have fun being to far from your group nice and safe when the light mechs come and visit the very obvious position where all those LRMS are coming from.

Sure sure ... go stand 100m behind your teammates while still in perfect safety since they are the ones making trades, sharing armor and giving you locks in addition to chasing those big bad OP lights away from you ... Useful teammate is useful ... lol

Although I guess I can only thank you for such a post which proves pretty much everything bad said about the LRM crowd. Keep up the ... ugh ... good work?

[Shifty McSwift]

PhoenixFire55, on 15 June 2017 - 12:26 AM, said:

What kills? ... 71 kills in 199 matches. One kill per three matches ...
Work harder I guess?

Under 1.0 W/L and a whooping avg match score of 174 and you consider yourself "good with everything" ... k, lol.

See that is how you bring someones stats into it, when they are bragging about how good they are, not when they are trying to have an abstract discussion about meta or their opinions on random subjects.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 15 June 2017 - 12:34 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Shifty McSwift, on 15 June 2017 - 12:32 AM, said:

See that is how you bring someones stats into it, when they are bragging about how good they are, not when they are trying to have an abstract discussion about meta or their opinions on random subjects.

I've only done it to this particular guy and only because he has already proven in a different thread that he is both ignorant and wants to remain such. It is actually less about his actual stats and more about showing that he is clearly delusional both about his own level and about the supposed effectivness of lurms.

[Wil McCullough]

Shifty McSwift, on 15 June 2017 - 12:32 AM, said:

See that is how you bring someones stats into it, when they are bragging about how good they are, not when they are trying to have an abstract discussion about meta or their opinions on random subjects.

Stats show part of the picture. It doesnt lend any weight to SOME arguments, but paints a pretty accurate picture of the person's skill level and where he's coming from.

Like if Big Joe from down the street has a 0.3 wlr and a 0.1kda (for example), you can pretty much bet your month's salary that he thinks lurms are op af. After all, with that kind of stats, you KNOW tactical positioning is beyond him. And on the flip side, using lurms doubles his score because chanced are the guy can't move his mech and shoot at the same time.

Stats give you an idea of where the guy stands and whether his opinion has any weight on the discussion.

Maybe that's being an elitist dbag, but personally if we're talking about surgery for example, a brain surgeon's opinion is going to be a lot more educated and worth more consideration than a butcher's. If the butcher and his friends take offence to that, well.

[Shakma]

Xiphias, on 01 June 2017 - 05:55 AM, said:

LRMs used in serious comp play: 0

That's the only proof of the lack of effectiveness you need.

Amen.

sycocys, on 01 June 2017 - 07:16 AM, said:

... its just not a good thing to balance from the bottom. ...

Amen the 2nd.

@ OP, you have to look at it this way:

In competitive play you'll have roughly equally organized and coordinated teams with roughly evenly distributed player skills. So every advantage you can get over your enemy is taken into consideration and being utilized to secure that win.
Competitive players/teams gravitate strongly towards any little benefit "x" has over "y".
So from a balancing point of view, this is the situation where the least ammount of variables needed to be considered are present. Here you can see much clearer why "x" is preforming better than "y".
And hence you know much clearer what to tackle in your attempt to balance, without reinventing the wheel or mistakenly "fix" things that weren't broken in the first place.
This is why balancing from the top is the way to go. It's done in all the big competitive games I know and can think of.

Games are about choices. In MWO it's the choice of which mech and what build to take to the field.
So if you don't see LRMs being used in competitive play at all, it means they're not viable choices to be taken over "x" or "y" etc.

Sure stuff like this works in none competitive causal play, but alot does. But it's not the place to start looking when trying to balance.

Edited by Shakma, 15 June 2017 - 05:12 AM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Shifty McSwift, on 15 June 2017 - 12:32 AM, said:

See that is how you bring someones stats into it, when they are bragging about how good they are, not when they are trying to have an abstract discussion about meta or their opinions on random subjects.

I am 64th on my Alt on the Assault leaderboard from farming cbills using nothing but an AWS-8R (W/L 2.02, KDR 2.97, Match 454) where I have been playing most of the month finishing up my Clan dropdecks. Only played a few games on my main with a whole lot of Mining most of it from the losing side of the map in there pulling the scores down to below average that I have not equalized out (W/L 1.31, KDR 2.22, Match 359). You can be good with LRMs if done correctly... most do not do it correctly.

Edit: I also bought and leveled that AWS-8R in those stats... it is just such a good money-maker I needed to invest in a cbill generator because Clan mechs are so expensive. It is weird being cbill & mech poor in the game again.

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 15 June 2017 - 05:14 AM.

[Roughneck45]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 15 June 2017 - 05:10 AM, said:

I am 64th on my Alt on the Assault leaderboard from farming cbills using nothing but an AWS-8R (W/L 2.02, KDR 2.97, Match 454) where I have been playing most of the month finishing up my Clan dropdecks. Only played a few games on my main with a whole lot of Mining most of it from the losing side of the map in there pulling the scores down to below average that I have not equalized out (W/L 1.31, KDR 2.22, Match 359). You can be good with LRMs if done correctly... most do not do it correctly.

So you've been mashing potatoes on your alt in tier 4-5 with LRMs? This kinda proves everything people have argued against you. LRMs wreck noobs and are ineffective against experienced pilots.

Edited by Roughneck45, 15 June 2017 - 08:00 AM.

[Tesunie]

PhoenixFire55, on 15 June 2017 - 12:26 AM, said:

What kills? ... 71 kills in 199 matches. One kill per three matches ...
Work harder I guess?


Under 1.0 W/L and a whooping avg match score of 174 and you consider yourself "good with everything" ... k, lol.

A few things I'd like to point out.

On the note of K/D, I recently took a new all direct fire mech (seen as people here mention that it's the way to go for kills). I had 4 KMDDs, 600+ damage and 9 assists. Not a single kill. So, if you want to look at it by K/D, than direct fire must suck? Yet, I've had matches in my LRM mixed build where I left with 4 kills before for about the same amount of damage... (Same mech chassis, if that mattered.)

I present this point because, you can cause all the damage in the world and in all the right places, but that doesn't mean you land that last less than one point of damage onto the target, or that it may even be wise for you to try, such as if you are overheating or already badly damaged and should hide instead of trying to get one more shot off.

So K/D doesn't exactly equate to good skill or even is a semblance of a good player. Just could mean they get lucky on landing that last bit of damage.


W/L I wont argue, as in theory that should normalize after a sufficient number of matches to start showing a possible scope of a player's impact within a match. However, I'm also just as certain that some people have had matches that they did 1000+ damage, several kills on their own (etc) and still lost and other matches where you did almost nothing and still won. You are but a single person out of 24 people who make up the two teams.

W/L is a better indicator of a player's skill compared to K/D, but I also do like to look at more than just that, as even W/L can be inaccurate.


Avg Match score is probably a far better indicator of skill over the other two. This tends to show how active and how much a given player tends to do in a match. If you see two players in a single match with the same damage, the one with the higher match score probably did more overall work, even though their damage scores can be exactly the same. But even this can be manipulated, which is why I recommend looking at more than a single match.


I don't often like to say this, but Medicine Man doesn't seem to have a good showing on any of those fronts. Although I will give benefit of the doubt here, as 199 matches does seem a little short to show anything as a player average, doesn't show if he's been experimenting with mech builds/skills, and it doesn't show how effective he may be within certain mechs. He may very well get better results (much like myself) in his LRM based mechs as an average. He may also be a newer player or haven't had as much player time/experience under him as compared to some of the rest of us. So, it may also be true that, for his level of play, LRMs may work well for him specifically.

It's like myself. I can't really contest or say much about comp play, because I don't play within that level of play. So none of my experience can compare to those discussions. However, for my level of play, which is QP, GP and FP currently at T2, I can say I do well with most weapon systems, but my LRM mechs have better overall stats than many of my direct fire. Such as an example my Huntsmen stats I presented previously. The only Huntsmen (with over 100 matches) to out perform my LRM based version was the Hero. (Sadly, my best builds are on my Prime, which I have two separate variants of, one what I consider my best LRM Huntsmen along with what is possibly now my best direct fire laser loadout. Due to this, I can not separate their stats, leaving them out of the number crunching game. )

So, when talking about weapons, I feel we do need to consider level of play. If someone is a T5 player, than that needs to be considered, as in their level of play some things may work better/be perfectly find to use, when compared to someone who is T1 or is more known to be in GP/FP/Comp Play (who's PSR could easily show T5, even though their skill level is above that).

PhoenixFire55, on 15 June 2017 - 12:26 AM, said:

LOL ... lack of arm weapon convergence eh? ... Oh wait, you are serious, let me laugh even harder ... LMAO


Sure sure ... go stand 100m behind your teammates while still in perfect safety since they are the ones making trades, sharing armor and giving you locks in addition to chasing those big bad OP lights away from you ... Useful teammate is useful ... lol

I've actually noticed that sometimes my arm mounted weapons have converged oddly. I stopped using the Huntsmen P as an SRM mech (when I was first trialing builds for it) because I kept seeing the SRMs crisscross in front of my target, hitting the opposite sides instead of the location I actually wanted to hit. I also see it occasionally in my PPC version of the same mech. So there is some statement to that, but I will also say that most of the time this isn't an issue and doesn't happen. But it is possible and can be an issue sometimes...


I don't know about Medicine Man's tactics and play style with LRMs, but I can say not all of us stand behind the team when we have LRMs on our mechs. I know my unit mates don't have any issue with me bringing LRMs now that they have seen how I use them. They originally was worried I would hang out back and shoot only indirectly, so they advised me not to use them at first. But I don't play that way and instead LRM much closer to the front lines (as in, I am on the front lines). Now? They don't care because they know I can deal the damage, share my armor and I'm not afraid to get messy when things get close. (I will also note, I don't boat LRMs, which is why I can do that.)

We are also suppose to act as a team, right? We set up for different roles, and we are suppose to cover each other, right? So, if a "useful teammate" that can handle a light mech better than myself does their job, that means that those teammates who can handle targets that are possibly farther away/more appropriate for their skills/weapons... That's a good thing, right? Though, if you completely can't handle a light mech at all... Well, that's why I don't boat only those weapons. (For example, LRMs or normal PPCs, which each have minimum ranges fast mechs can take advantage of. I pair those weapons with at least something that can hurt mechs that are too close, so I'm not completely dependent upon teammates for protection. Such as my Crab 27SL.)

[H Seldon]

Since people are throwing out stats. Playing this month with a Supernova-A with 2 ALRM20s and a mix of other weapons. Tier 1
Rank Pilot Name Total Wins Total Losses W/L Ratio Total Kills Total Deaths K/D Ratio Games Played Average Match Score 807 H Seldon 47 43 1.09 109 56 1.95 90 352

This isn't too bad? And I've had matches this month where half the team couldn't break 100 damage.

[Tesunie]

H Seldon, on 15 June 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

Since people are throwing out stats. Playing this month with a Supernova-A with 2 ALRM20s and a mix of other weapons. Tier 1
Rank: 807
Pilot Name: H Seldon
Total Wins: 47
Total Losses: 43
W/L Ratio: 1.09
Total Kills: 109
Total Deaths: 56
K/D Ratio: 1.95
Games Played: 90
Average Match Score: 352

This isn't too bad? And I've had matches this month where half the team couldn't break 100 damage.

Fixed it into a more forum friendly reading format.

[Zolaz]

Wil McCullough, on 01 June 2017 - 10:43 PM, said:

if you start off by trying to tell a chess grandmaster that his chess knowledge is terrible, your strategies work better and have gotten you a 90% win rate in your games, THEN refuse his challenge of a game to prove it, just like james did...

... yes. absolutely yes, you'll be a coward.

Or you could say he is a better strategist than you are. I'll just throw out the mandatory Sun Tzu quote and let you Google to find out who that is.

[Tesunie]

Medicine Man, on 15 June 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

You are just a groupie. Your stats are just a reflection of your inability to stand on your own. I'm not impressed at all. See you around you punk brat.

Probably not the best way to approach criticism... or a discussion...

[cazidin]

Did this thread go from "Just bring some AMS and LRMs won't be a problem for you." to "You're bad at this game!" vs "You don't understand my genius!" with the third guy munching on popcorn, which I would like him to share?

[Tesunie]

cazidin, on 15 June 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

Did this thread go from "Just bring some AMS and LRMs won't be a problem for you." to "You're bad at this game!" vs "You don't understand my genius!" with the third guy munching on popcorn, which I would like him to share?

I believe that seems to be some/most of it...

For the most part, I've been trying to stay outside the heavier parts of the thread.

[Vxheous]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 15 June 2017 - 05:10 AM, said:

I am 64th on my Alt on the Assault leaderboard from farming cbills using nothing but an AWS-8R (W/L 2.02, KDR 2.97, Match 454) where I have been playing most of the month finishing up my Clan dropdecks. Only played a few games on my main with a whole lot of Mining most of it from the losing side of the map in there pulling the scores down to below average that I have not equalized out (W/L 1.31, KDR 2.22, Match 359). You can be good with LRMs if done correctly... most do not do it correctly.

Edit: I also bought and leveled that AWS-8R in those stats... it is just such a good money-maker I needed to invest in a cbill generator because Clan mechs are so expensive. It is weird being cbill & mech poor in the game again.

Alts don't really count, my alt has a 2.3 W/L and a 3.33 K/D and average match score of 489. All solo queue, with either IS LPL in a Battlemaster 2c or SPL in an Arctic Cheetah. In the assault, I lose and I'm going 800 damage, win and it's anywhere between 1.2k-2.0k damage. The assault Average Match score is 516 (my light's match score is only 295, which is dragging down my overall average)

Here's my alt's overall stats:

Medicine Man, on 15 June 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

You are just a groupie. Your stats are just a reflection of your inability to stand on your own. I'm not impressed at all. See you around you punk brat.

Check the only solo queue account stats above. You're just bad

H Seldon, on 15 June 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

Since people are throwing out stats. Playing this month with a Supernova-A with 2 ALRM20s and a mix of other weapons. Tier 1
Rank Pilot Name Total Wins Total Losses W/L Ratio Total Kills Total Deaths K/D Ratio Games Played Average Match Score 807 H Seldon 47 43 1.09 109 56 1.95 90 352

This isn't too bad? And I've had matches this month where half the team couldn't break 100 damage.

The overall health pool has gone up since last patch, which means the overall Average Match Score has gone up as well. 352 Match score pre-skill tree would be pretty decent, now it's more like 400+ match score. Not saying your 352 match score isn't good (I mean there's tons of people arguing here that have trouble breaking 200-250) but since skill tree, 350 is like saying you're competent.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 15 June 2017 - 09:33 AM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Roughneck45, on 15 June 2017 - 05:54 AM, said:

So you've been mashing potatoes on your alt in tier 4-5 with LRMs? This kinda proves everything people have argued against you. LRMs wreck noobs and are ineffective against experienced pilots.

then you do not understand how the Tier system works... first off I have almost filled up the Tier 3 xp bar & if I was not leveling mechs I do not like with builds I detest in the format they are not designed for then I would probably be teir 1 by now. But I am working on long range clan cheese for CW which is the exact opposite of what you should be bringing to QP... so I see all same people on that account as I do on this one with my tier 1 xp bar maxed out. Nor does that prove anything since I still have high level score on my main account even if they are below what I would consider "average" for an AWS-8R because of a high preponderance of the single map and spawn side that can have that effect, a map with a spawn side that would bring down anyones W/L by getting a highly number of them within a small sample size. Playing only an AWS-8R would put me in the top 50 of the Assualt leaderboards every month... I just get bored since it is so easy that I usually play the worse mechs for the challenge and I generally only do play it when I am farming cbills or aggravated at being on too many terribad teams in a row so it is necessary to do +1200 damage every game to carry them to victory.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 15 June 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Alts don't really count, my alt has a 2.3 W/L and a 3.33 K/D and average match score of 489. All solo queue, with either IS LPL in a Battlemaster 2c or SPL in an Arctic Cheetah. In the assault, I lose and I'm going 800 damage, win and it's anywhere between 1.2k-2.0k damage. The assault Average Match score is 516 (my light's match score is only 295, which is dragging down my overall average)

You do not even have a 100 games on there and you self describe as to only playing 2 of the very best mechs in the game. I would hope that in the very small sample size you have that you would have managed to skew the data set even more than that, before it equalizes within a larger data pool.

[Vxheous]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 15 June 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

You do not even have a 100 games on there and you self describe as to only playing 2 of the very best mechs in the game. I would hope that in the very small sample size you have that you would have managed to skew the data set even more than that, before it equalizes within a larger data pool.

My alt in 100 games is 3/4 to Tier 2 and like you I'm playing againat the same people I see on my main. The arctic cheetah is new only uas 30 SP assigned. Battlemaster 2c sure, but this is quickplay where clan laser vomit dominates (especially this month since the skill tree).

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 15 June 2017 - 11:17 AM.