30 replies to this topic

[Stealth Tank]

I always love good Whine. The fine whine ages with time. Delicious. I will first say that PGI you have done a great job the best you can do. I know it is difficult to make this kind of game, but....It is necessary to whine otherwise many companies will not realize they are making some mistakes. I also, would like to whine. waaaaaaaahh. Thank you. My whines are now noticed.

Please introduce cheese and crackers, there is too much whine. Whenever someone says something to me I say, "Whine about it some more, if it makes you feel better". These are true words of wisdom. Many other MMO developers listen to the whiners and they change their games accordingly, not just PGI. We all know this to be true. It makes the user base lose confidence in the creators of the game, and it sucks.

In my last whining segment, I will share with you why I think that this game makes me rage in anger:

Real Life Physics: As in, real life.

Let's be real, the game is not real. Lasers hit instantly because they travel at the speed of light. PPC's are discharging high energy protons. These should be traveling at 99%+ the speed of light, and should appear instantaneous to the naked eye. It is funny to watch protons traveling across the field going slower than a bullet.

Ah yes, bullets, and autocannons, LBX weapons, travel faster than the speed of sound, yet we can see them going much less faster than an actual bullet would go. This is ridiculous. Nobody should be able to see any kind of round going to its target, in real life it would happen so fast you would not see anything.

Make the game more real, please. I am whining about this, so maybe somebody will listen.

Do not think you can outwhine me, because I have whined the fine whine, throughout time. I just ate 3 tacos, with a lime. (I actually did they were so good omg)

[Mcgral18]

So, you're asking for faster projectile speeds?

[El Bandito]

The velocity values are set like that to help balancing the game. As long as the game is balanced I don't care about realism that much, on an alreay unrealistic sci-fi game.

[4rcs1ne]

El Bandito, on 03 June 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

The velocity values are set like that to help balancing the game. As long as the game is balanced I don't care about realism that much, on an alreay unrealistic sci-fi game.

I agree. The impact on balance would be horrendous and we would have a worse game as a result.

Hmmm, let's see. Do I want a worse, more realistic game, or do I want a fun, un-realistic game? Yeah ... I'll take fun over realism any day.

[Accused]

Stealth Tank, on 03 June 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

Real Life Physics: As in, real life.

Let's be real, the game is not real. Lasers hit instantly because they travel at the speed of light. PPC's are discharging high energy protons. These should be traveling at 99%+ the speed of light, and should appear instantaneous to the naked eye. It is funny to watch protons traveling across the field going slower than a bullet.

Actually not relevant to the discussion. You cannot go faster than the speed of light. Light can be stopped, physics doesn't care. That's if we're talking light beams and not weaponize ionized gas being shot through a magnetic field.

[Anjian]

The muzzle velocities in this game appears similar to what are used on World War 2 tanks anyway.

[Dino Might]

Stealth Tank, on 03 June 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

I always love good Whine. The fine whine ages with time. Delicious. I will first say that PGI you have done a great job the best you can do. I know it is difficult to make this kind of game, but....It is necessary to whine otherwise many companies will not realize they are making some mistakes. I also, would like to whine. waaaaaaaahh. Thank you. My whines are now noticed.

Please introduce cheese and crackers, there is too much whine. Whenever someone says something to me I say, "Whine about it some more, if it makes you feel better". These are true words of wisdom. Many other MMO developers listen to the whiners and they change their games accordingly, not just PGI. We all know this to be true. It makes the user base lose confidence in the creators of the game, and it sucks.

In my last whining segment, I will share with you why I think that this game makes me rage in anger:

Real Life Physics: As in, real life.

Let's be real, the game is not real. Lasers hit instantly because they travel at the speed of light. PPC's are discharging high energy protons. These should be traveling at 99%+ the speed of light, and should appear instantaneous to the naked eye. It is funny to watch protons traveling across the field going slower than a bullet.

Ah yes, bullets, and autocannons, LBX weapons, travel faster than the speed of sound, yet we can see them going much less faster than an actual bullet would go. This is ridiculous. Nobody should be able to see any kind of round going to its target, in real life it would happen so fast you would not see anything.

Make the game more real, please. I am whining about this, so maybe somebody will listen.

Do not think you can outwhine me, because I have whined the fine whine, throughout time. I just ate 3 tacos, with a lime. (I actually did they were so good omg)

Not that I disagree, but there are many other "realism" factors that are much simpler that need to be addressed first. Also, your justification is inaccurate. I have watched bullets that I have shot arc down onto a target at 1000 yards through my 10x scope. Yes, they're still going fast, but I can still see them (well, actually their trail) falling onto the target at that range. It's pretty darn cool, actually. I do think projectile velocity should be increased (but not to actual realistic levels). You also probably have a serious problem with ranges being obscenely short. Some of these inaccuracies have to persist to keep this somewhat related to Battletech.

Edited by Dino Might, 03 June 2017 - 08:34 PM.

[Napoleon_Blownapart]

you must've never played MW2, PPCs were like blue lightning bowling balls and about as fast.

[Birthright]

I dont know, since battletech is not based on reality because it is fiction,
it might be that your assumption is completely wrong.

Nobody knows how a PPC works or if our laws of physics are the laws of physics in battletech,
maybe there weapon are affected by gravity and atmossphere and stuff.

In the end, these guys are 1000+ years into the future,
kinda lame to compare them to our understanding of science.

Of course in the end these games are designed to be playable and thats why we dont shoot lightning at each other, but still I dont think your argument is valid.

[Snowbluff]

El Bandito, on 03 June 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

The velocity values are set like that to help balancing the game. As long as the game is balanced I don't care about realism that much, on an alreay unrealistic sci-fi game.

Indeed. We fight at spitting distance for war machines as is.

[process]

I like lore and reality as much as the next guy, but both of those are secondary to fun and balance.

[Mystere]

NebeIparder, on 03 June 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

Nobody knows how a PPC works ...

Please, speak for yourself.

<*cough* Project Marauder *cough*>

[razenWing]

Quote:
"Muzzle velocities range from approximately 120 m/s (390 ft/s) to 370 m/s (1,200 ft/s) in black powder muskets, to more than 1,200 m/s (3,900 ft/s) in modern rifles with high-performance cartridges such as the .220 Swift and .204 Ruger, all the way to 1,700 m/s (5,600 ft/s) for tank guns firing kinetic energy penetrator ...
Muzzle velocity - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_velocity"

Gauss Rifle, 2000 m/s. Sounds about right. (Obviously, nobody has ever done a frame by frame analysis to see if that's correctly implemented, so it would be interesting to say the least)

WITH that said, even in real life, you realize ballistics are not THAT instantaneous right? That's why tanks have sophisticated fire control to help compensate for the bullet travel time. Did you know it takes 4 seconds for a sniper to hit a target 1200 yards away?

Also, I get the impression that we are simply defining "PPC" differently. To me, a PPC is just a gauss round energized with space magic to give it a blue glow. Maybe it's heated plasma? I have no freaking clue, but it's a sci-fi magic weapon with no resemblance to real world physics as it can't possibly exist in real life without functioning exactly like a laser. So, I wouldn't put too much thought into that one.

Otherwise... everything else is about right...

(as for why AC20 is only 900m per second... I guess, those are triple the weight of modern rounds? Think Bowser's giant 20 ton cannons firing at Mario... I think)

[xe N on]

Stealth Tank, on 03 June 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

Let's be real, the game is not real. Lasers hit instantly because they travel at the speed of light. PPC's are discharging high energy protons. These should be traveling at 99%+ the speed of light, and should appear instantaneous to the naked eye. It is funny to watch protons traveling across the field going slower than a bullet.

Agree, PPCs should fire a stream of protons and behave more like lasers with a burn time.

Quote

Ah yes, bullets, and autocannons, LBX weapons, travel faster than the speed of sound, yet we can see them going much less faster than an actual bullet would go. This is ridiculous. Nobody should be able to see any kind of round going to its target, in real life it would happen so fast you would not see anything.

As far I know from sarna.net most autocannons don't fire bullets in a classical way. They fire HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) rounds. Because in BT universe, armor is so strong, that they have no armor piercing rounds as modern tank cannons use. In BT, weapons "melt" or "bomb" armor plates away. So they don't necessarily need an ultra high speed cannon for that.

On wiki you can read a russian 125 mm cannon shots projectiles with around 800 to 2000 m/s, depending on the ammunition type. HE-FRAG-FS, which I asume would be equally to HEAPs move with around 850 m/s . That would be equally to an AC/10. So, the values in MWO are not that far from today's tank cannons. But I'm not an miliary expert ...

You can see the projectiles of ACs in MWO, because they are virtually tracer ammunition - they glow (for some reason).

Here is a vid where you can see a tank firing tracer round, you can very clearly see the projectile moving. It doesn't impact instantly.



In reality the travel times of projectiles are even much longer, because even long range weapons in MWO are more or less "brawling" in terms of today's weapon ranges.

Firing a AC/5 in MWO with a projectile speed of 1000 m/s at 1000 m, which is already max. range, would take 1 second flight time. A today's tank cannon can shot targets at around 5 km or more. So, the flight time would be 5 seconds!

Edited by xe N on, 04 June 2017 - 03:28 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Cheese and whine?

I prefer;



Each to their own

[Ade the Rare]

Realism? Well where are the power cables trailing out of our mechs to the nearest powerstation?

Trip on the cable and half the team dc... oh wait they've already implimented that

[Scyther]

PPCs in BT/MW titles have often left me scratching my head. Typically though that is because we are conflating them with Particle Beams. Particle beams would work pretty much like lasers, the primary difference being that anti-laser defenses might not be as effective against particle beams. They have some similar disadvantages: burn time, atmospheric scattering, damage spreading, etc..

I decided to focus on the words 'projection', 'cannon'. This isn't a beam. This weapon manages to create a bolt, or ball, of high energy particles that it fires as a contained burst. The energy ball has some self-cohering electromagnetic characteristics that keep all the particles as a distinct bundle until it impacts a target, at which point the energy wrapper disrupts and slams all the particle energy into impacted object.

This helps rationalize:
- PPC recoil
- Packetized damage
- PPC short range feedback limiters
- The way PPCs deliver their damage to the impact point even if it is a glancing/non-direct hit (whereas a beam would mostly pass on by)
- The need for a 'projectile' speed and mechanic, since at higher speeds the energy wrapper would treat air/smoke/dust particles as an 'impacting object' and discharge.

So there you go, future tech Particle Projection Cannons as explained by Bill Nye.

[Bud Crue]

Of all the things that might offend
in a game of stompy robot pretend,
to loose tears from thine own eyes as water from a pipe
over ballistics speed and a lack of real seems a we bit ripe.
The flavors and vintages of whine that this game doth inspire
a lack of realism seems just a bit silly to be adding to the mire.
To do it right you need a whine embraced in a more developed valance
oh, you know, something that makes real tears flow...such as Clan and IS balance.

[Mystere]

razenWing, on 04 June 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

Did you know it takes 4 seconds for a sniper to hit a target 1200 yards away?

Huh? That's 300 y/s or 274 m/s. What rifle did they use?

An ancient Dragunov does 830 m/s.

[razenWing]

Mystere, on 04 June 2017 - 04:03 AM, said:

Huh? That's 300 y/s or 274 m/s. What rifle did they use?

An ancient Dragunov does 830 m/s.

I might have gotten the metrics wrong... wait, how many yard in 2 miles?