147 replies to this topic

[DANKnuggz]

I've read the energy changes and they seem livable even though I dislike nerfing the only weapon types in this game that can actually be called fully futuristic (we already have ballistic and missile weapons in modern times).

My only real complaint is what has been done to the clan SPL.... it literally does 1 more dmg per volley than a standard IS small laser and at a cost of 2.7 heat.... That's 4 dmg for 2.7 heat... That kind of heat per point of dmg exchange is NOT a good thing when in close range with fast fire rates. The clan SPL lost 33% of its effective dmg but its heat per shot only went down 10% which resulted in a sizable heat per dmg increase. Other than the small range advantage the Clan-SPL has the IS SPL is now better due to shorter duration and lower heat per dmg. In most cases with the SPL (clan or IS) you try to get within optimum range and the 50m difference doesn't mean much for a fast moving light.

End result of that change for me and many people will be to stop running SPL builds entirely as that heat to dmg exchange at such short range is unacceptable especially considering the small size of most mechs dependent on the SPL for viability. Shutting down even once can spell your end and with rapid recycle weaponry like C-SPLs increasing the heat:dmg ratio only speeds you to that end. After the new tech drops next month I cannot think of a situation where C-SPL will be desirable hence leaving the weapon obsolete.

[Ruar]

I would say the fact that the CSPL was the go to weapon indicates it was out of balance. There was no real question about which weapon to take if you wanted a small laser. The change though means you have to consider different options to see which one works for you better.

[Y E O N N E]

I do still enjoy how up-in-arms we all are over the cSPL, never mind that the already-mediocre isSPL also got hit and is now not-at-all worth taking over the garbage isSL.

The only winner in the small category is the cERSL, and that's only because it started okay and got touched the least.

[Bud Crue]

CSPL...energy re-balance, the nerfs. Whatever. Its the underlying motivations and the results that bother me....the why and the consequences of the how.

PGI makes grandiose statements of intent and then does things that may be in keeping with their formulaic approach to balance, but which are totally contrary to their statements of vision and greater goals of this game. They do that enough and even the most blind to their folly, mech porn addicted whales are going to leave them.

You cannot keep telling your customers that you have goals and aspirations for your product (improve balance, provide more diversity, provide more viable choices, etc.) and then keep doing things that are completely contrary to those asprations (applying formulaic changes which reduce diversity, reduce viable choices, degrade current in game balance in hopes of future content, etc.).

I don't care about the cspl nerf. I really don't. I do care that PGI keeps shooting themselves in the foot with their utter lack of self-awarness and seeming blind indifference to what their players and paying customers expect from them, when they do things like this.

And people wonder why this game is niche.

[4rcs1ne]

At least Clans will have one good small laser being the ERSL.

Unfortunately for the IS, both the isSL and isSPL will still be absolute garbage after this patch (With the isSPL being even more garbage than before).

Edited by Matt2496, 19 June 2017 - 05:24 PM.

[FupDup]

Ruar, on 19 June 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

I would say the fact that the CSPL was the go to weapon indicates it was out of balance. There was no real question about which weapon to take if you wanted a small laser. The change though means you have to consider different options to see which one works for you better.

"Consider the options" = Always take CERSL or CMPL.

Yeonne Greene, on 19 June 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

I do still enjoy how up-in-arms we all are over the cSPL, never mind that the already-mediocre isSPL also got hit and is now not-at-all worth taking over the garbage isSL.

I'm up in arms about both. :\

Edited by FupDup, 19 June 2017 - 05:44 PM.

[SQW]

Maybe lights will start doing some scouting and target locking for the benefit of the rest of the team instead of diving head first into the entire enemy team shouting BANZAI!

People cry about MWO not having role warfare but if you let ACH and LCT stuff 6 SPLs into something the size of an Atlas's pinky, is it any surprise people drive them like 20t assaults?

[Snowbluff]

Promessa, on 19 June 2017 - 06:00 PM, said:

Or I could benefit the team by killing stuff before they even hurt anyone. Standing around pointing a tag at someone doesn't sound compelling. Your acting like light mechs meant to kill just aren't a thing. Have you seen the ACH-C's default loadout?

Agreed. IN this game you make money buy killing things. Squirreling the enemy after doing damage is an added bonus.

My cheetah does need a new loadout. Might try 2 ERML 4ERSL, or 2 CMLP and 4 ERSL.

[CanadianCyrus]

Next month I imagine Heavy Lasers will be king.

[VanillaG]

DANKnuggz, on 19 June 2017 - 04:01 PM, said:

I've read the energy changes and they seem livable even though I dislike nerfing the only weapon types in this game that can actually be called fully futuristic (we already have ballistic and missile weapons in modern times).

My only real complaint is what has been done to the clan SPL.... it literally does 1 more dmg per volley than a standard IS small laser and at a cost of 2.7 heat.... That's 4 dmg for 2.7 heat... That kind of heat per point of dmg exchange is NOT a good thing when in close range with fast fire rates. The clan SPL lost 33% of its effective dmg but its heat per shot only went down 10% which resulted in a sizable heat per dmg increase. Other than the small range advantage the Clan-SPL has the IS SPL is now better due to shorter duration and lower heat per dmg. In most cases with the SPL (clan or IS) you try to get within optimum range and the 50m difference doesn't mean much for a fast moving light.

End result of that change for me and many people will be to stop running SPL builds entirely as that heat to dmg exchange at such short range is unacceptable especially considering the small size of most mechs dependent on the SPL for viability. Shutting down even once can spell your end and with rapid recycle weaponry like C-SPLs increasing the heat:dmg ratio only speeds you to that end. After the new tech drops next month I cannot think of a situation where C-SPL will be desirable hence leaving the weapon obsolete.

I will turn this around on you. Could you explain why 2 cSPL should do 50% more damage (12 vs 8) than a cMPL that has the same amount of weight, crits, and heat? All that does is promote boating for chassis that have large number of energy hardpoints. The reality is that the cSPL needed to be brought back in line. The new Heavy Lasers are going to fill the niche of top damage per class so they couldn't buff the cMPL or cLPL because that would make the Heavy Lasers even more OP compared to IS lasers.

[FupDup]

VanillaG, on 19 June 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

Could you explain why 2 cSPL should do 50% more damage (12 vs 8) than a cMPL that has the same amount of weight, crits, and heat?

Because range.

Compare 165/297 meters versus 330/561.

[MechaBattler]

Bud Crue, on 19 June 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

CSPL...energy re-balance, the nerfs. Whatever. Its the underlying motivations and the results that bother me....the why and the consequences of the how.

PGI makes grandiose statements of intent and then does things that may be in keeping with their formulaic approach to balance, but which are totally contrary to their statements of vision and greater goals of this game. They do that enough and even the most blind to their folly, mech porn addicted whales are going to leave them.

You cannot keep telling your customers that you have goals and aspirations for your product (improve balance, provide more diversity, provide more viable choices, etc.) and then keep doing things that are completely contrary to those asprations (applying formulaic changes which reduce diversity, reduce viable choices, degrade current in game balance in hopes of future content, etc.).

I don't care about the cspl nerf. I really don't. I do care that PGI keeps shooting themselves in the foot with their utter lack of self-awarness and seeming blind indifference to what their players and paying customers expect from them, when they do things like this.

And people wonder why this game is niche.

What the the cuss do you want them to do exactly? And it has be something that the majority of the forums can agree with. Because otherwise we'll have another guy just like you, saying the exact same things about whatever you suggest. Keep that in mind.

[SQW]

Promessa, on 19 June 2017 - 06:00 PM, said:

Or I could benefit the team by killing stuff before they even hurt anyone. Standing around pointing a tag at someone doesn't sound compelling. Your acting like light mechs meant to kill just aren't a thing. Have you seen the ACH-C's default loadout?

I don't blame you, I blame PGI for setting it up this way. It was idiotic to make all four weight classes to be able to contribute (read: kill) equally in combat. The lore weapon for LCT is a single ML and ACH's main punch comes from 2 ERMLs ffs! Now look at the Frankenstein we have running around in MWO. Is it any wonder everyone play every mode like skirmish? The only class that can go cap stuff and do objectives are busy shooting down Assaults. Doesn't help that all the c-bills are in the kills either.

PGI screwed up big time by making MWO's class structure like some common arena shooter a la Team Fortress.

Curtailing light's potential firepower with SPL nerf will help a little I suppose. Battletech can't arrive fast enough....

[Ruar]

FupDup, on 19 June 2017 - 06:59 PM, said:

Because range.

Compare 165/297 meters versus 330/561.

Do the rest of the weapons follow this 50% increase? If so you'd have an argument, but I'm not sure the rest of the weapons follow this pattern.

[Mister Blastman]

Ruar, on 19 June 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

I would say the fact that the CSPL was the go to weapon indicates it was out of balance. There was no real question about which weapon to take if you wanted a small laser. The change though means you have to consider different options to see which one works for you better.

Nope.

It was a great choice to use up close as it should have been. But it wasn't the only choice due to double the tonnage of the small laser.

And it needed to be fantastic due to limited range.

Now it will become shite. And the game will grow boring.

FupDup, on 19 June 2017 - 06:59 PM, said:

Because range.

Compare 165/297 meters versus 330/561.

Fup gets it.

[Joshua Obrien]

Ruar, on 19 June 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

Do the rest of the weapons follow this 50% increase? If so you'd have an argument, but I'm not sure the rest of the weapons follow this pattern.

Cmpl does 8 damage each, Clpl does 13. 2x Cmpl weigh less than a Clpl so...What's your point?

[QuantumButler]

SQW, on 19 June 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

Maybe lights will start doing some scouting and target locking for the benefit of the rest of the team instead of diving head first into the entire enemy team shouting BANZAI!

People cry about MWO not having role warfare but if you let ACH and LCT stuff 6 SPLs into something the size of an Atlas's pinky, is it any surprise people drive them like 20t assaults?

Hahaha why would anyone bother to scout when the only thing ever rewarded is killing the enemy?

People will just replace their spls with MLs or just not use light mechs even more.

[Ruar]

Joshua Obrien, on 19 June 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

Cmpl does 8 damage each, Clpl does 13. 2x Cmpl weigh less than a Clpl so...What's your point?

My point is you need to show consistency to make your argument work. If you simply cherry pick one weapon while none of the rest match then it doesn't matter.

You are basically saying X amount of range is worth Y amount of damage. Prove it through the other weapons in the game.

Mister Blastman, on 19 June 2017 - 08:39 PM, said:

Nope.

It was a great choice to use up close as it should have been. But it wasn't the only choice due to double the tonnage of the small laser.

And it needed to be fantastic due to limited range.

Now it will become shite. And the game will grow boring.



Fup gets it.

The problem with your reasoning is you are overlooking how easy it is to close range. If it's difficult to get in close then having a strong weapon makes sense, but we all know mobile mechs are able to dart in and out of range, or use terrain peeking, so they get their optimal range.

Which means you can't really use short range as an argument when the game easily allows for short range to happen.

[dario03]

SQW, on 19 June 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

Maybe lights will start doing some scouting and target locking for the benefit of the rest of the team instead of diving head first into the entire enemy team shouting BANZAI!

People cry about MWO not having role warfare but if you let ACH and LCT stuff 6 SPLs into something the size of an Atlas's pinky, is it any surprise people drive them like 20t assaults?

Nerfing lights (again and again) isn't going to make people play lights as glorified uavs, they just won't play them. Which if we're going to worry about lore is the exact opposite of what we should be trying since lights and mediums per lore should be super common.

SQW, on 19 June 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

I don't blame you, I blame PGI for setting it up this way. It was idiotic to make all four weight classes to be able to contribute (read: kill) equally in combat. The lore weapon for LCT is a single ML and ACH's main punch comes from 2 ERMLs ffs! Now look at the Frankenstein we have running around in MWO. Is it any wonder everyone play every mode like skirmish? The only class that can go cap stuff and do objectives are busy shooting down Assaults. Doesn't help that all the c-bills are in the kills either.

PGI screwed up big time by making MWO's class structure like some common arena shooter a la Team Fortress.

Curtailing light's potential firepower with SPL nerf will help a little I suppose. Battletech can't arrive fast enough....

Yeah, and a stock Banshee 3E carries a single ppc, small laser, and ac5 with 1 ton of ammo. Lots of mechs have got huge fire power increases. Just something that happens when you have mechlab.
Also PGI didn't make all the weight classes equal in combat. Lights are already weak, they were weak before the rescale made a bunch of them bigger with no positives given to them, and they will be weaker still after the patch.

[SQW]

dario03, on 19 June 2017 - 08:58 PM, said:

Also PGI didn't make all the weight classes equal in combat. Lights are already weak, they were weak before the rescale made a bunch of them bigger with no positives given to them, and they will be weaker still after the patch.

Lights are weak but ACH and LCT are definitely not which is why you see those two more than than say Firestarter or Myst Lynx. Like I said, you give a light mech 1 ML and it wouldn't want to be anywhere near a fight. Give that same mech 5 SPLs and it'll be running into the thick of things every chance it can.

It sucks that scouting and capping gives only a fraction of the reward compare to a kill because in a lot QP games, the team that scouts out the position, direction and composition of the enemy Bravo and Charlie has a huge advantage.