105 replies to this topic

[Spr1ggan]

G4LV4TR0N, on 09 June 2017 - 02:32 AM, said:

You know, by BT standards Adder should destroy every Arctic Cheetah it meets because of massive firepower difference. Now lets see what happens in MWO...

[I was supposed to put a youtube link but I lost it and actually don't care that much. That was some flick when guy in ACH killed 3 brawling Adders one by one and it seemed they all were good players.]

If that was a series of 1v1s in the same match i'd say that's quite a common result in MWO. When i'm in a Cheetah and i see Adders or Kitfoxes that i can engage 1v1 or even 1v2, it's just easy kills. With the speed difference, how large their CT's are combined with the damage and how fast cspls fire, it's pretty easy. You can do it almost as easy with a Wolfhound or Firestarter as well.

Personally though i've never found the Cheetah to be hard to play against when i'm in a decent IS light. I remember when the Wolfhound first came out. I was able to win a 1v3 against 3 Cheetahs on Bog, with a 5 mpl Wolfhound.

[Ruar]

Kubernetes, on 09 June 2017 - 02:16 AM, said:

ruar, I think you'll find that Lights do far less damage on average than heavies. Lights are not easy to pilot. 1000 dmg in an assault or heavy is child's play compared to doing it in a light. The people doing fantastic damage game in and game out are likely great pilots who would do the same or better in heavier mechs.

I'm not talking about 1000dmg in a match though. I'm talking about 500-700 dmg, something that happens much more often. When talking about damage potential it's better to look at the mean than the high/low.

Sure, there are matches when a light gets hit early and does almost no damage, but that happens to everyone. At the same time there are those great matches where you get 1k damage, but those are few and far between. Getting 300-400 can be expected and 600-700 is a good game.

I have confidence that if I wanted to spend the time adjusting my play style that I could do well in lights. The problem for me is light mechs don't sync with how I prefer to play. At the same time there are plenty of medium and heavy mechs that I can say the very same thing about as well so I don't play those mechs. I don't like assaults either for the very same reason.

For some reason though I see people talking about light mechs like they should be doing the exact same in every chassis within that category. They point to the best performing lights and then say all the rest of the lights are junk since they don't perform the same. My belief is that those other chassis are just being played incorrectly. The Wolfhound does not fill the same battlefield role as the Locust, yet people seem to want them to be clones. I realize part of this is because of the focus on damage, but it's also a group think misconception.

And yes, it can be harder to get high damage in a light. The same can be said for assaults. However, when I look at match scores I routinely see the Alpha and Beta lance with higher damage numbers than the Charlie lance. I routinely see lights getting good damage because the game rewards mobility to a higher degree than pure armor. The problem is lights really need to be focused on more than just doing damage and MWO doesn't recognize this fact. So everyone focuses on damage and the best damage dealing lights become the only ones used while the other light mechs are called underpowered when it's just not the case. They have plenty of power, it's just not in the pure damage role.

[Kubernetes]

How many pilots are averaging 500-700 damage in their lights? Maybe a handful? Are you running into EmP every match?

[Requiemking]

Ruar, the Wolfhound is actually the chassis that is supposed to be doing what the Laser vomit Locusts are doing right now. The Wolfhound, in lore, was an energy based raider and Light Hunter, created by Steiner to hunt down the Panthers that had been embarrassing them. Problem? The Wolfhound, as of now, is too large and too sluggish to perform this duty, and has such been replaced by the Locusts.

[Ruar]

Requiemking, on 09 June 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

Ruar, the Wolfhound is actually the chassis that is supposed to be doing what the Laser vomit Locusts are doing right now. The Wolfhound, in lore, was an energy based raider and Light Hunter, created by Steiner to hunt down the Panthers that had been embarrassing them. Problem? The Wolfhound, as of now, is too large and too sluggish to perform this duty, and has such been replaced by the Locusts.

Is the problem the Wolfhound is too large to hunt down light mechs, or is the problem the primary light mechs being used are so small they exaggerate the problems with hit registration which makes it so the Wolfhound isn't capable of doing effective damage?

The Wolfhound is a great raider as it stands. Put a LL and some MPL on it and it can work a flank, close to harass an occupied target, and move all over the battlefield providing support. If you want to go full sniper just go with LL. LPL are also an option.

If you want to hunt lights in MWO you need streaks or SPL and neither of these work effectively in the Wolfhound. Which means if you gear up for light hunting then you limit your options. If you go for a different role then you have to rely on support when you get a Locust or ACH on you.

This is what I meant about the Locust and ACH needing to be made bigger to put them at the same level as the other lights.

[Requiemking]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

Is the problem the Wolfhound is too large to hunt down light mechs, or is the problem the primary light mechs being used are so small they exaggerate the problems with hit registration which makes it so the Wolfhound isn't capable of doing effective damage?

The Wolfhound is a great raider as it stands. Put a LL and some MPL on it and it can work a flank, close to harass an occupied target, and move all over the battlefield providing support. If you want to go full sniper just go with LL. LPL are also an option.

If you want to hunt lights in MWO you need streaks or SPL and neither of these work effectively in the Wolfhound. Which means if you gear up for light hunting then you limit your options. If you go for a different role then you have to rely on support when you get a Locust or ACH on you.

This is what I meant about the Locust and ACH needing to be made bigger to put them at the same level as the other lights.

The problem is that the Wolfhound(along with all the other humanoid 35 tonners) are far too large and sluggish. They get spotted well before they are within range and then can't get away. And guess who's fault that is?

[Ruar]

Requiemking, on 09 June 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

The problem is that the Wolfhound(along with all the other humanoid 35 tonners) are far too large and sluggish. They get spotted well before they are within range and then can't get away. And guess who's fault that is?

Odd, the Wolfhound's primary role is essentially the same one I use my Enforcer to fill. The Enforcer is bigger and slower yet I've done well with it, to the point of using it for my Ace of Spades match. I think the problem is people trying to use the bigger lights in the same way as the smaller lights instead of playing the bigger ones in a way that fits their role better.

[Requiemking]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

Odd, the Wolfhound's primary role is essentially the same one I use my Enforcer to fill. The Enforcer is bigger and slower yet I've done well with it, to the point of using it for my Ace of Spades match. I think the problem is people trying to use the bigger lights in the same way as the smaller lights instead of playing the bigger ones in a way that fits their role better.

You also seem to have forgotten that Lights basically have no quirks(something your Enforcer most certainly has), and every time we Light pilots ask for them, the Assault potatoes and MW4 grognards scream with rage until the offending Light is nerfed to be even worse than it was when we started.

[Weeny Machine]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 03:19 AM, said:

I'm not talking about 1000dmg in a match though. I'm talking about 500-700 dmg, something that happens much more often. When talking about damage potential it's better to look at the mean than the high/low.

Sure, there are matches when a light gets hit early and does almost no damage, but that happens to everyone. At the same time there are those great matches where you get 1k damage, but those are few and far between. Getting 300-400 can be expected and 600-700 is a good game.

I have confidence that if I wanted to spend the time adjusting my play style that I could do well in lights. The problem for me is light mechs don't sync with how I prefer to play. At the same time there are plenty of medium and heavy mechs that I can say the very same thing about as well so I don't play those mechs. I don't like assaults either for the very same reason.

For some reason though I see people talking about light mechs like they should be doing the exact same in every chassis within that category. They point to the best performing lights and then say all the rest of the lights are junk since they don't perform the same. My belief is that those other chassis are just being played incorrectly. The Wolfhound does not fill the same battlefield role as the Locust, yet people seem to want them to be clones. I realize part of this is because of the focus on damage, but it's also a group think misconception.

And yes, it can be harder to get high damage in a light. The same can be said for assaults. However, when I look at match scores I routinely see the Alpha and Beta lance with higher damage numbers than the Charlie lance. I routinely see lights getting good damage because the game rewards mobility to a higher degree than pure armor. The problem is lights really need to be focused on more than just doing damage and MWO doesn't recognize this fact. So everyone focuses on damage and the best damage dealing lights become the only ones used while the other light mechs are called underpowered when it's just not the case. They have plenty of power, it's just not in the pure damage role.

The problem is that there is not much variation in the light class. There are several reasons:

1. Different weapon layouts or mixed ones?
The Wolfie could carry a LL/ERLL or something along the line. However, he would have a meagre long-range capability as well as short-range - you are better off taking a medium. In reality a Wolfie is therefore equipped with MLs or MPLs.

This holds true for most light mechs. Sure, you can sacrifice speed to take heavier weapons...but then you could play a fast medium and would be better off.

Ballistic weapons are ruled out anyway because of their weight. So the variation in weaponry is rather limited anyway.


2. Playstyles
The inefficiency of mixed layouts lead to a problem, though. Brawling is a no-no because heavies and most assaults turn so fast to easily track a light mech. In case of heavies you simply cannot stay out of their firing arc to really capitalize on it because the vast majority lack the agility to do so. So, the only thing left is drive-by-shooting/peek-a-booing



The point is: except for locust and commando drive-by-shooting is what is left gameplaywise - and that's only because they are so tiny that hitreg doesn't register the full damage and holds. Therefore most lights play very similar and share the same role.
Therefore, if you like it or not, you have to play the chassis similarly. Some of the reasons are class-inherent (limited weight, therefore lights usually carry lasers) or PGI related (brawling was rendered next to impossible with high risk / low reward ratio). Btw, can you imagine that at one point you were able to BRAWL excellently with a *drumroll* Huginn? Yeah, that was after a myriad of nerfs for the light mech class.


Sidenote: As for IS lights...they have to close to about 220m-290m or their weapons do less damage. And that's why the they inferior compared to an ACH which is in the best spot:
1. 30t mech --> hardly hit by the resizing
2. ECM --> more survivability and easier time to sneak up on a target
3. CML --> longer range than IS counterparts

[Ruar]

Requiemking, on 09 June 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

You also seem to have forgotten that Lights basically have no quirks(something your Enforcer most certainly has), and every time we Light pilots ask for them, the Assault potatoes and MW4 grognards scream with rage until the offending Light is nerfed to be even worse than it was when we started.

So now the issue is that the larger lights don't have quirks instead of them needing to be smaller? I actually think the quirk system was probably the single best idea PGI came up with because it allows them to balance mechs that don't work right when being translated from TT to FPS.

Sadly, I don't use my Enforcer nearly as much as the ST changes and nerfs to firepower have made it overheat too fast and I haven't felt like switching builds around to find something that works as effectively.

Regardless of how my Enforcer performs the topic was about how not a lot of people play lights. The fact some lights are OP compared to others doesn't mean all of the lights should be made OP. Reducing the size of lights causes more problems than it solves when things like quirks, inherent mobility stat changes, and adding some more armor are all options that can be used to balance things out.

Bush Hopper, on 09 June 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

The problem is that there is not much variation in the light class. There are several reasons:

1. Different weapon layouts or mixed ones?
The Wolfie could carry a LL/ERLL or something along the line. However, he would have a meagre long-range capability as well as short-range - you are better off taking a medium. In reality a Wolfie is therefore equipped with MLs or MPLs.

This holds true for most light mechs. Sure, you can sacrifice speed to take heavier weapons...but then you could play a fast medium and would be better off.

Ballistic weapons are ruled out anyway because of their weight. So the variation in weaponry is rather limited anyway.


2. Playstyles
The inefficiency of mixed layouts lead to a problem, though. Brawling is a no-no because heavies and most assaults turn so fast to easily track a light mech. In case of heavies you simply cannot stay out of their firing arc to really capitalize on it because the vast majority lack the agility to do so. So, the only thing left is drive-by-shooting/peek-a-booing



The point is: except for locust and commando drive-by-shooting is what is left gameplaywise - and that's only because they are so tiny that hitreg doesn't register the full damage and holds. Therefore most lights play very similar and share the same role.
Therefore, if you like it or not, you have to play the chassis similarly. Some of the reasons are class-inherent (limited weight, therefore lights usually carry lasers) or PGI related (brawling was rendered next to impossible with high risk / low reward ratio). Btw, can you imagine that at one point you were able to BRAWL excellently with a *drumroll* Huginn? Yeah, that was after a myriad of nerfs for the light mech class.


Sidenote: As for IS lights...they have to close to about 220m-290m or their weapons do less damage. And that's why the they inferior compared to an ACH which is in the best spot:
1. 30t mech --> hardly hit by the resizing
2. ECM --> more survivability and easier time to sneak up on a target
3. CML --> longer range than IS counterparts

To be fair, the upcoming civil war weapons will go a long way to addressing the issues you listed.

[Weeny Machine]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

Odd, the Wolfhound's primary role is essentially the same one I use my Enforcer to fill. The Enforcer is bigger and slower yet I've done well with it, to the point of using it for my Ace of Spades match. I think the problem is people trying to use the bigger lights in the same way as the smaller lights instead of playing the bigger ones in a way that fits their role better.

Enforcer has more armour, structure, weaponry, heat disipation etc. and you wonder you do easily rival the Wolfies performance? Honestly, currently the mediums, especially the fast ones, can do everything lights can do...just better. And that's the problem: lights have no real role.

Add to this that the size difference of the two mechs is not that big. A Wolfie rivals a lot medium mechs which means he gets hit by semi-competent shots pretty easily. It is also pretty sluggish like most light mechs. Which is also a reason why lights are forced out of brawling.

[Ruar]

Bush Hopper, on 09 June 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

Enforcer has more armour, structure, weaponry, heat disipation etc. and you wonder you do easily rival the Wolfies performance? Honestly, currently the mediums, especially the fast ones, can do everything lights can do...just better. And that's the problem: lights have no real role.

Add to this that the size difference of the two mechs is not that big. A Wolfie rivals a lot medium mechs which means he gets hit by semi-competent shots pretty easily. It is also pretty sluggish like most light mechs. Which is also a reason why lights are forced out of brawling.

Lights should almost never consider brawling. They are light mechs. The fact people think brawling should be an acceptable role for lights show just how skewed the opinion is about lights.

And the Wolfhound is no where near as big as an Enforcer. There's no need to exaggerate to try and prove a point. My Enforcer goes 81kph... that's neither fast nor agile.

Edited by Ruar, 09 June 2017 - 12:00 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

So now the issue is that the larger lights don't have quirks instead of them needing to be smaller? I actually think the quirk system was probably the single best idea PGI came up with because it allows them to balance mechs that don't work right when being translated from TT to FPS.

Sadly, I don't use my Enforcer nearly as much as the ST changes and nerfs to firepower have made it overheat too fast and I haven't felt like switching builds around to find something that works as effectively.

Regardless of how my Enforcer performs the topic was about how not a lot of people play lights. The fact some lights are OP compared to others doesn't mean all of the lights should be made OP. Reducing the size of lights causes more problems than it solves when things like quirks, inherent mobility stat changes, and adding some more armor are all options that can be used to balance things out.



To be fair, the upcoming civil war weapons will go a long way to addressing the issues you listed.

Not necessarily. The heavy machine gun could have potential. However, we have the same problem again with the agility of lights we already have: they have to get VERY close and brawl simply because HMGs require uptime on a target. Their lack of agility and/or the agility of heavies and most assaults will f* you hard if you try brawling.

Maybe you can field light ppcs or snub nose ppcs. Dunno but the lights need quirks to support these weapons. I am sceptical

[Ruar]

Bush Hopper, on 09 June 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

Not necessarily. The heavy machine gun could have potential. However, we have the same problem again with the agility of lights we already have: they have to get VERY close and brawl simply because HMGs require uptime on a target. Their lack of agility and/or the agility of heavies and most assaults will f* you hard if you try brawling.

Maybe you can field light ppcs or snub nose ppcs. Dunno but the lights need quirks to support these weapons. I am sceptical

I was thinking more along the lines of the ER lasers, MRMs, and the PPCs. I don't like MGs so I assume HMGs will be a niche more than anything.

[Mystere]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

So now the issue is that the larger lights don't have quirks instead of them needing to be smaller? I actually think the quirk system was probably the single best idea PGI came up with because it allows them to balance mechs that don't work right when being translated from TT to FPS.

I disagree. Quirks should have only been used for flavor and variety and not for balancing.

It's highly-addicting effects on much of the player base is proof of that.

[Requiemking]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

Lights should almost never consider brawling. They are light mechs. The fact people think brawling should be an acceptable role for lights show just how skewed the opinion is about lights.

And the Wolfhound is no where near as big as an Enforcer. There's no need to exaggerate to try and prove a point. My Enforcer goes 81kph... that's neither fast nor agile.

Erm, if Lights aren't allowed to Brawl, aren't allowed to peekaboo or drive by, and are basically only allowed to perform roles that you are strictly better off taking a Medium for, then what's the point of having mechs lighter than 40 tons?

[Weeny Machine]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

Lights should almost never consider brawling. They are light mechs. The fact people think brawling should be an acceptable role for lights show just how skewed the opinion is about lights.

And the Wolfhound is no where near as big as an Enforcer. There's no need to exaggerate to try and prove a point. My Enforcer goes 81kph... that's neither fast nor agile.

Maybe you should study the overlays which McGral posted after the re-sizing before your rightous anger gets the better of you *chuckle*. Be free and dig out those old threads. They should still exist.

But hey, I won't keep you from using mixed weapon layouts and fire your one or two ERLL from the flank if you feel good about it. Like it or not, you would be better off taking a medium when you plan to do this because all your meagre weapons will do is to sprinkle some low-damage over a mech. Nevertheless, I am the last one who tries to force a certain playstyle upon someone. Just don't act as if you would have found the holy grail as how to play light mechs - because you don't. I have explained that to you above.

And why shouldn't light mechs be brawlers? They have the speed and the class should be about agility - which they don't have. Heck, even in lore light mechs literally dance around the fat mechs. So, please before you accuse someone of having a skewed opinion ask yourself if you are not the one who is the one who has it. I, at least, ask for a diversity of playstyles. You just scream: no, they are not supposed to do that. Period. And again: there was a time when lights could do it.

Oh, and Ruar, if light mechs are sooo great...why haven't you played 1 match in a light mech? I went back till season 6.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 09 June 2017 - 12:14 PM.

[Ruar]

Bush Hopper, on 09 June 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

Maybe you should study the overlays which McGral posted after the re-sizing before your rightous anger gets the better of you *chuckle*. Be free and dig out those old threads. They should still exist.

But hey, I won't keep you from using mixed weapon layouts and fire your one or two ERLL from the flank if you feel good about it. Like it or not, you would be better off taking a medium when you plan to do this because all your meagre weapons will do is to sprinkle some low-damage over a mech. Nevertheless, I am the last one who tries to force a certain playstyle upon someone. Just don't act as if you would have found the holy grail as how to play light mechs - because you don't. I have explained that to you above.

And why shouldn't light mechs be brawlers? They have the speed and the class should be about agility - which they don't have. Heck, even in lore light mechs literally dance around the fat mechs. So, please before you accuse someone of having a skewed opinion ask yourself if you are not the one who is the one who has it. I, at least, ask for a diversity of playstyles. You just scream: no, they are not supposed to do that. Period. And again: there was a time when lights could do it.

I stand corrected on the size difference. Apologies. I was basing my statement on in game where I would have sworn I was looking down on the Wolfhound.

I NEVER said ERLL. Those things suck. I said LL which is a nice weapon actually. And never said all lights have to be played a certain way, I said some lights were designed around a role and should be played to match that role. You don't make a brawling Enforcer because none of them are setup for that role.

Brawling and shooting at close range are two different things. Lights are supposed to dart in and out, using terrain to shield them and hit vulnerable spots. Brawling is going toe to toe with an opponent, trading blows until one falls down.

It seems we might be using different definitions and terms which might be causing confusion and causing you to get emotional. I'm not screaming, I'm stating a logical assertion.

[Requiemking]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

Brawling and shooting at close range are two different things. Lights are supposed to dart in and out, using terrain to shield them and hit vulnerable spots. Brawling is going toe to toe with an opponent, trading blows until one falls down.

It seems we might be using different definitions and terms which might be causing confusion and causing you to get emotional. I'm not screaming, I'm stating a logical assertion.

Actually, "Brawling" is just a general term. In truth, there are two types of brawling. "Tank Brawling" is what you are thinking of, where mechs sit there twisting and firing until one of them drops. "Speed Brawling", also known as knife fighting, involves leveraging superior mobility to circle around an enemy mech, popping off barrages of fast firing, fast cycling weapons(such as SPLs) while evading fire. Until the Rescale, Lights(and fast Mediums) played on the latter style, leveraging their high mobility to pop off SPL and SRM barrages while hoping that the enemy was either a terrible shot or didn't carry any form of spread weapon. However, Rescale ruined that as Lights depended on their small size not for the fight itself(in truth the only time height really played a factor was if the Light was fighting a mech with uber High mounts like a Jagermech or a Battlemaster), but for the approach, as a small mech has an easier time approaching an enemy than a tall mech.

[Ruar]

I've never heard of brawling as being circling your opponent and being based on high mobility. I heard that used as speed tanking, but never brawling. Which is probably why there's a significant difference in how different roles are thought to be played when there are multiple meanings for the same word.