105 replies to this topic

[Requiemking]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

I've never heard of brawling as being circling your opponent and being based on high mobility. I heard that used as speed tanking, but never brawling. Which is probably why there's a significant difference in how different roles are thought to be played when there are multiple meanings for the same word.

Unfortunately, speed brawling has been nearly wiped out for Lights. Only the Locust, Commando, and Arctic Cheetah retain the necessary mobility to effectively utilise that style of combat as well as being small enough to utilise most cover to approach unseen. Larger Lights are simply too sluggish and too big to get close and fight that way, and as such they have mostly been relegated to being inferior Mediums.

[Ruar]

I would think speed brawling would be exceptionally OP since the slower mech would have no effective way of getting damage on the fast mech short of a mistake or excellent positioning. It's probably a good thing it's gone.

[Requiemking]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

I would think speed brawling would be exceptionally OP since the slower mech would have no effective way of getting damage on the fast mech short of a mistake or excellent positioning. It's probably a good thing it's gone.

Actually, Speed brawling had a fair number of weaknesses. Placing your back to a wall was the simplest and the most effective, since that style required being able to reach an enemy's back in the first place. Counter turning was also good, if the Light in question didn't know what the S key did(an unfortunate number of Light pilots at the time basically glued their finger to the W key). Spread weapons also did a number on Lights, with SSRM boats basically being the Grim reaper. The only mechs that had a really hard time fighting speed brawlers were mechs like the Battlemaster, who had no mounts below chest height.

Edited by Requiemking, 09 June 2017 - 04:47 PM.

[Ruar]

Requiemking, on 09 June 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

Actually, Speed brawling had a fair number of weaknesses. Placing your back to a wall was the simplest and the most effective, since that style required being able to reach an enemy's back in the first place. Counter turning was also good, if the Light in question didn't know what the S key did(an unfortunate number of Light pilots at the time basically glued their finger to the W key). Spread weapons also did a number on Lights, with SSRM boats basically being the Grim reaper. The only mechs that had a really hard time fighting speed brawlers were mechs like the Battlemaster, who had no mounts below chest height.

So basically OP against slow medium/heavy/assault mechs that didn't have SSRM (all IS), or out in the open like whenever a mech moves from position to position, or when a light pilot was good.

So the drawbacks were pretty much all on the light pilot with almost no consistent option for everyone else.

[Requiemking]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 05:19 PM, said:

So basically OP against slow medium/heavy/assault mechs that didn't have SSRM (all IS), or out in the open like whenever a mech moves from position to position, or when a light pilot was good.

So the drawbacks were pretty much all on the light pilot with almost no consistent option for everyone else.

I did mention counter turning did I not? Yes, it helped if the Light pilot was a moron, but in the time it took for the Locust, the fastest mech at the time, to decelerate to zero then accelerate to full reverse speed, a competent pilot could get at least one shot off, if not more. And, even then, Lights quirks were rather bad back then, as a single salvo from pretty much any Assault mech and even most Heavies was more than capable of severely damaging any Light that wasn't the Oxide(Oxide's durability quirks were horribly OP back then, this was widely acknowledged by most of the community, and a solution had been agreed upon).

Also, while SSRMs were the best weapon for countering Lights, SRMs and LBX ACs were also very good, especially since this was back before brawling maps like Frozen City and Terra Therma were revamped into sniper maps. The chances of encountering competent pilots in splat mechs was much higher due to the maps being much more friendly to such playstyles.

Edited by Requiemking, 09 June 2017 - 05:50 PM.

[Ruar]

Played a Firestarter tonight to give lights another chance. 11 matches, 8/3 w/l, 12/5 k/d, about 200 dmg average per match.

I picked up 17 SP from GXP and sunk them into full radar dep and an extra consumable for UAV. I mainly used MPL with SL or SPL in support. Did a match with five medium lasers as well. Not sure I've found the right combination of weapons yet. I know for sure I should have put SP into mobility instead of survival, but I wanted to see if survival helped much. 17 points later and I don't think they are worth the investment even though I maxed the armor in the mechlab.

I don't think the mech's size is a problem, but it definitely has to have points put into mobility. Torso pitch really sucks, twist is fine, and turning feels good. Starting and stopping feel a bit off. I would think a 35ton mech would get moving quicker.

I definitely want speed tweak to push my speed over 100kph. LFE is needed to push the speed up where it needs to be.

All in all, I can see why people don't like lights and think they need buffed. I think shrinking the size is the wrong answer though because of hit registration issues. Instead I could see a mobility buff so lights don't feel like they have to have the mobility tree just to feel swift. Accel and deccel should be increased. Pushing up the armor through quirks on the larger lights would also make sense. Part of it is I'm used to heavier mechs with more armor so I'm not moving all the time, but part of it is the way the game is focused on dealing damage. At the same time I think the smaller lights need to be made a bit bigger to help compensate for hit registration.

Ultimately there needs to be more rewards on the battlefield for things other than damage. Light mechs are going to feel out of place as long as damage is king. Farther ranged sensors with higher rewards for spotting, bonus for damage done against heavier mechs, and a free UAV only slot would all be ways to boost lights without making them too strong. Maybe adding in an automatic two seconds to target delay and increase target info gathering without having to use the skill tree. That should help boost the scouting role despite the fact scouting has limited value in the game.

I just think we have to get away from the idea that the only solution is to increase damage potential. Lights should be combat multipliers instead of focusing solely on damage.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

So I went with zero mobility on a KFX for once, and found...it sort of works, and sort of doesn't. But then again, it works as a second-line fire support mech rather than a brawling light; 2 LPL build averaged ~750 damage / match, while the 2 ERPPC build averaged ~600 / match. Had to use double coolshots on each one; had full seismic, radar deprivation and TIG on both types. Firepower tree trimmed down to the bare essentials of all heat generation nodes.

Lights -can- survive without mobility, provided that they have three things: long range, armor quirks, and enough experience to know when to scoot and stop poking from the same spot. The moment fast mediums or that abomination called the Linebacker comes to play, though, a slow light is dead. Yet another reason why lights are dead, I suppose, because the LBK can do what brawling lights can do - just better - and a CDA or VPR can do much better as an actual fast light than any of the others can (more firepower, faster, more heat dissipation/cooldown, and more durable overall).

[Y E O N N E]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 08:15 PM, said:

I definitely want speed tweak to push my speed over 100kph. LFE is needed to push the speed up where it needs to be.

Wait, wait, wait. Stop. Time-out.

You are running a Standard fusion engine in your Firestarter? And a stock one from the sound of it?

Pack it up, ladies and gents, this discussion is over.

[Ruar]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 June 2017 - 11:38 PM, said:

Wait, wait, wait. Stop. Time-out.

You are running a Standard fusion engine in your Firestarter? And a stock one from the sound of it?

Pack it up, ladies and gents, this discussion is over.

Oh noes... someone doesn't like to use XL engines... obviously they don't know how to play the gamez

[Weeny Machine]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

I would think speed brawling would be exceptionally OP since the slower mech would have no effective way of getting damage on the fast mech short of a mistake or excellent positioning. It's probably a good thing it's gone.

Brawling wasn't even op. Why? Lights need quite some uptime on a target to kill it. The problem was twofold, though, but didn't have to do with brawling itself:

1. At that time hitreg was even worse than now and it was also before they nerfed the overall speed of mechs. Which made lights incredibly tanky. Plus it was before re-sizing. An ACH could literally dance through the enemy team as could the Firestarter
Today, there is a better hitreg, lights have neither speed nor agility to pull that off. And if that wasn't enough: most 35t are huge

2. Heavy and assault pilots hated to get killed by lights (and they still do). The argument has always been: my mech is heavier so I should win.

I have to say, I miss brawling. There was nothing more intense and thrilling. You always wondered if you were able to bring your victim down before it got help

Edited by Bush Hopper, 09 June 2017 - 11:56 PM.

[Ruar]

So your argument is your mech is lighter so you should win?

Is there an acceptable win/loss ratio between lights and heavies? 50/50? Does the fact the light's mobility means it can fill more roles and is better able to shift to weak points factor in to who should win or lose more often?

[Weeny Machine]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 11:41 PM, said:

Oh noes... someone doesn't like to use XL engines... obviously they don't know how to play the gamez

His point is: a standard engine doesn't extend the life of a light mech much. Usually the next alpha will get you anyway. So the tradeoff is more than questionable

Ruar, on 10 June 2017 - 12:00 AM, said:

So your argument is your mech is lighter so you should win?

I have enough of you. Show me where I wrote that or shut the **** up because it seems you twist words on purpse or are simply to dense to understand what is written

Edited by Bush Hopper, 10 June 2017 - 12:06 AM.

[Ruar]

Bush Hopper, on 09 June 2017 - 11:54 PM, said:

2. Heavy and assault pilots hated to get killed by lights (and they still do). The argument has always been: my mech is heavier so I should win.

Your complaint was heavy and assault pilots thinking their mech should win because it's heavier. The inverse of this statement is that a light should win because it is lighter. Which is why I asked if that is what you meant. That's why I used the question mark thing and also had some follow up questions you ignored.

[Weeny Machine]

Ruar, on 10 June 2017 - 12:09 AM, said:

Your complaint was heavy and assault pilots thinking their mech should win because it's heavier. The inverse of this statement is that a light should win because it is lighter. Which is why I asked if that is what you meant. That's why I used the question mark thing and also had some follow up questions you ignored.

I explicitly explained to you, why brawling as an option wouldn't be op and you simply "inverted" the sense - which makes no sense in itself because of the explanation and it also is just a means of provocation if you are not aware of that. Your questionmark doesn't help, simply because it is a question of provocation because you ignored nearly everything I wrote by voicing it.

An acceptable loss ration? In a perfect balanced game, which will never be achieved, it would be 50/50 and each mech would just offer different routes to the same goal - destroying the target (sorry, like it or not but MWO is only about deathmatch. The paltry rewards for objectives make that clear).

As for your "fill more roles" sentence. I disagree already with the formulation. As was said be several people in this thread: lights have no real role. A fast medium does everything they do better.

[Ruar]

Which is why i keep suggesting ways for lights to have a real role other than damage. Yet people seem fixated on damage.

I wasn't trying to be provocative, I was trying to figure out what you think is an acceptable standard for light mechs to have. You already said that you miss brawling and wondering if help would arrive in time. This implies that in a 1v1 situation you had no real concern your target would kill you, rather you only worried if someone else would intervene to stop you. That is pretty much exactly why I think having speed tanking in MWO would be OP. The faster mech would control the engagement position, time, and distance in almost every case with the target having to rely on the light pilot being bad, some kind of low probability lucky break to keep him from dying, or another mech coming to help.

It seems very reasonable to me to think you want lights to be able to get easy kills in most cases based on your answers. Which is why I proposed my questions, but you became offended because you seem frustrated that I suggest lights need a different role than just damage and that some lights are OP now and need adjustment.

It's apparent though that I've stated my opinion clearly enough and you are not going to change your mind. You are certain lights need help and nothing I say will change your mind. Which is fine, but I see no point in continuing unless you have something else to bring to the discussion. Have a good night.

[Y E O N N E]

Ruar, on 09 June 2017 - 11:41 PM, said:

Oh noes... someone doesn't like to use XL engines... obviously they don't know how to play the gamez

I mean, you don't. But hey, continue to believe otherwise; no skin off of my back. You'll learn one day. Or not. You have the eternity it takes between moving your mouse and the Firestarter's torso lining up with the arms to figure it out.

[Aramuside]

Amazed no one has mentioned how well the skill tree treats urbanmechs.

Edited by Aramuside, 10 June 2017 - 01:06 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Aramuside, on 10 June 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

Amazed no one has mentioned how well the skill tree treats urbanmechs.

It's faster to just disarm them now, rather than kill them outright. Tanky little buggers.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Well then. I guess it's a good thing that the light queue went flat, because now I don't have to deal with so many fast interceptors.

This was on my alt, which is now in T2.



Now I am become kitfox, the destroyer of worlds.

Still, I'm rather annoyed that the list of viable lights has decreased so much - not that there were that many lights to begin with. 3 out of 4 lights in this match were ACHs. There's a locust in every other match, and possibly a spider or two. KFXes come out on days where LRM usage is heavy.

Not a giantstarter to be seen anywhere.

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 11 June 2017 - 01:55 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

I see lots of Adders, Arctic Cheetahs, Jenner IICs, and Locusts. But that is "lots" in context of "not very many Lights" .