Point by point what follows describes why the old skill tree is better than the new. If you would like to provide counterpoints and add to the discussion, great! If you have nothing and just want to ***** or character assassinate, please take your misery elsewhere.
Now on to the list.
Time sink- I love people reading posts where people say, "After an hour of playing with the new skill tree my mech performs just as well as before". So you spent an hour to end up where you started. And you think that is a good thing? Then I guess your time is not that valuable or maybe you do not own that many mechs (because maybe your time is not that valuable). Question, would you spend an hour in line just to end up at the back of the line?
Adds nothing new- What new features were added with this glorious skill tree? Zero, zip, nada. We already had what this new skill tree had to offer in simpler form. Now if there was a hand-to-hand tree or a field repair tree or a mech commander tree or just any new feature then there would be reason to create a new tree. But instead we are praising PGI for giving us something we already had.
No new reward system- Day one hour one and people are giving instructions on how to avoid useless nodes. So that means PGI spent time and money giving us a skill tree with something that we already have and that we already do not use. Creating new rewards that would promote all nodes to be used...that is crazy talk! Old tree is fine for same old reward system.
New skill tree is woe for new players- People are saying, "This is great for new players. It gives them a sense of progression!" Huh? How much "progression" is to be had with low player populations and the gates open between T1 and T5? How much fun will it be for a new player to pilot a new mech with no nodes unlocked versus a bloodthirsty try hard with max firepower destroying them in one shot and max armor they can't pierce? The new skill tree is a seal clubbers wet dream. The old skill tree in and of itself did not create a huge separation between new and old players.
I like to drive mechs- the new skill tree has a more pronounced effect on how well you perform than with the old skill tree. Don't believe me? Find a friend that doesn't know how to play beyond having run the tutorial. Let them pilot your fully skilled Atlas and you pilot an Atlas with no skill nodes unlocked. Let me know how that goes. Your worth should be proven on the battlefield, not the mechlab.
New skill tree, creating medium assaults since 2017- Lastly, the old skill tree you could tell the difference between a medium and an assault. The new skill tree it can be impossible. A fully skilled Vindicator should not have 9 less front CT armor than a non-skilled Boar's Head. Period. That is just plain broken.
Looking forward to your responses!
6
Old Skill Tree>New Skill Tree. Evidence Inside!
Started by Ted Wayz, May 17 2017 03:43 PM
91 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 17 May 2017 - 03:50 PM
You are not including all of the data though. You've cherry picked the items you like.
New tree = one mech to max out; old tree = three mechs to max
New feature- customization. Granted this customization is not as effective as it could be, but at least it's there. The new tree forces people to pick and choose skills beyond two or three modules. This tree is like having 15 modules but you have to pick how much boost each of those modules actually do up to a cap.
Your reward argument is nonsensical. I could even argue that the new tree is just frustrating enough you feel a sense of accomplishment getting your build laid out the way you want, something the old tree only offered when you hit elite and mastered. The new tree can provide that reward time and time again as you make changes to your build and skill choices.
Your worth has a lot to do with how you perform in the mechlab. Build a bad foundation and you'll have a bad mech. The skill tree is not much different than the boost received from someone getting good modules and someone picking bad ones.
New tree = one mech to max out; old tree = three mechs to max
New feature- customization. Granted this customization is not as effective as it could be, but at least it's there. The new tree forces people to pick and choose skills beyond two or three modules. This tree is like having 15 modules but you have to pick how much boost each of those modules actually do up to a cap.
Your reward argument is nonsensical. I could even argue that the new tree is just frustrating enough you feel a sense of accomplishment getting your build laid out the way you want, something the old tree only offered when you hit elite and mastered. The new tree can provide that reward time and time again as you make changes to your build and skill choices.
Your worth has a lot to do with how you perform in the mechlab. Build a bad foundation and you'll have a bad mech. The skill tree is not much different than the boost received from someone getting good modules and someone picking bad ones.
#3
Posted 17 May 2017 - 03:58 PM
I'll bite.
Time Sink - It took me 20 minutes to get my 1st mech back to par (on my first pass) after having never used the ST before. I think the time I save in the future from no longer having to swap modules will work out for me. That said, my stable isn't that big compared to a lot of vets.
Adds Nothing New - Yes and no. Now I get to make a choice, where before there was none. However, there is very little "new" stuff on the tree. If at all. *EDIT* I totally forgot about all the stuff my fellow pilots are pointing out. Good show!
No New Rewards - Agreed, but I'm not sure if they are really needed. We might be talking about two different things, though. The Supply Cache was the last new reward added to the game, afaik.
New Skill Tree and New Players - It certainly shortens the gap. After a single match I now can put points into the tree, where before it would take two or three matches to get a single T1 click in. That's objectively better, unless I'm mistaken.
Like to Drive Mechs - I fail to see how the progress of 0/91 to 91/91 has any bearing regarding your piloting skill against fellow mechpilots making the same trek. That said, the tree does allow for screwing up your skill points where that wasn't possible before.
Medium Assaults - You're right, but I think it's a good thing. I think this game could use less cookie cutter.
Time Sink - It took me 20 minutes to get my 1st mech back to par (on my first pass) after having never used the ST before. I think the time I save in the future from no longer having to swap modules will work out for me. That said, my stable isn't that big compared to a lot of vets.
Adds Nothing New - Yes and no. Now I get to make a choice, where before there was none. However, there is very little "new" stuff on the tree. If at all. *EDIT* I totally forgot about all the stuff my fellow pilots are pointing out. Good show!
No New Rewards - Agreed, but I'm not sure if they are really needed. We might be talking about two different things, though. The Supply Cache was the last new reward added to the game, afaik.
New Skill Tree and New Players - It certainly shortens the gap. After a single match I now can put points into the tree, where before it would take two or three matches to get a single T1 click in. That's objectively better, unless I'm mistaken.
Like to Drive Mechs - I fail to see how the progress of 0/91 to 91/91 has any bearing regarding your piloting skill against fellow mechpilots making the same trek. That said, the tree does allow for screwing up your skill points where that wasn't possible before.
Medium Assaults - You're right, but I think it's a good thing. I think this game could use less cookie cutter.
Edited by stonekeg, 17 May 2017 - 04:13 PM.
#4
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Posted 17 May 2017 - 04:01 PM
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:
Point by point what follows describes why the old skill tree is better than the new. If you would like to provide counterpoints and add to the discussion, great! If you have nothing and just want to ***** or character assassinate, please take your misery elsewhere.
"Disclaimer: If I don't like your post, I'm going to pretend that you have a personal problem with me."
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:
Time sink- I love people reading posts where people say, "After an hour of playing with the new skill tree my mech performs just as well as before". So you spent an hour to end up where you started. And you think that is a good thing? Then I guess your time is not that valuable or maybe you do not own that many mechs (because maybe your time is not that valuable). Question, would you spend an hour in line just to end up at the back of the line?
It does not take an hour to Master a Mech with 91 nodes. It takes 10 minutes, and that's really only if you're dragging your feet.
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:
Adds nothing new- What new features were added with this glorious skill tree? Zero, zip, nada. We already had what this new skill tree had to offer in simpler form. Now if there was a hand-to-hand tree or a field repair tree or a mech commander tree or just any new feature then there would be reason to create a new tree. But instead we are praising PGI for giving us something we already had.
New additions:
*Critical hits for missiles
*Spread reduction for missiles and LBX
*Gauss Charge time extension
*Extra ammo for your weapons
*Critical hit chance reduction
*The entire Jump Jet tree
*Extra module space
*Cooldown between modules and accompanying skill
*Engine Desync
*And more!
Saying that it adds nothing is blatantly ignoring the fact that it actually does bring stuff to the table. Don't let your angst cause you to say stupid things.
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:
No new reward system- Day one hour one and people are giving instructions on how to avoid useless nodes. So that means PGI spent time and money giving us a skill tree with something that we already have and that we already do not use. Creating new rewards that would promote all nodes to be used...that is crazy talk! Old tree is fine for same old reward system.
The old tree needed an overhaul. The community had been asking for it for years. Now it's here and people are losing their minds. Overall, if you actually think about the tree a bit, the useless nodes don't really cost you that much. I'm able to get most of what I want with only about a 5-node loss to junk nodes. I couldn't really get a lot with those 5 nodes, so I won't really miss them. Yeah, the junk node tax is annoying, but it's better than that useless weapons convergence skill that cost 6,000 XP in the old tree and that literally had zero effect on your gameplay. At least the junk nodes buff your Mech.
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:
New skill tree is woe for new players- People are saying, "This is great for new players. It gives them a sense of progression!" Huh? How much "progression" is to be had with low player populations and the gates open between T1 and T5? How much fun will it be for a new player to pilot a new mech with no nodes unlocked versus a bloodthirsty try hard with max firepower destroying them in one shot and max armor they can't pierce? The new skill tree is a seal clubbers wet dream. The old skill tree in and of itself did not create a huge separation between new and old players.
New players in unskilled Mechs versus veteran players in skilled Mechs is nothing new and was just as bad under the old skill tree. It was arguably worse since the skills took longer to unlock and new players were faced with the massive economic challenge of obtaining three variants. Eliminating the three variant rule is a huge step forward in favor of the new players just by itself.
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:
I like to drive mechs- the new skill tree has a more pronounced effect on how well you perform than with the old skill tree. Don't believe me? Find a friend that doesn't know how to play beyond having run the tutorial. Let them pilot your fully skilled Atlas and you pilot an Atlas with no skill nodes unlocked. Let me know how that goes. Your worth should be proven on the battlefield, not the mechlab.
Actuallly, engine desync and the scattered nodes makes it harder to get your old agility and speed back, so the opposite is more usually true.
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:
New skill tree, creating medium assaults since 2017- Lastly, the old skill tree you could tell the difference between a medium and an assault. The new skill tree it can be impossible. A fully skilled Vindicator should not have 9 less front CT armor than a non-skilled Boar's Head. Period. That is just plain broken.
I haven't run the numbers yet, but if this is the case, then this would be a valid complaint.
Edit: A better discussion than Ted's rant:
Edited by Nightmare1, 17 May 2017 - 04:01 PM.
#5
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Posted 17 May 2017 - 04:06 PM
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:
Adds nothing new- What new features were added with this glorious skill tree? Zero, zip, nada. We already had what this new skill tree had to offer in simpler form. Now if there was a hand-to-hand tree or a field repair tree or a mech commander tree or just any new feature then there would be reason to create a new tree. But instead we are praising PGI for giving us something we already had.
Huh, I didn't know the old Skill Tree let me add more ammo per ton, equip every 'mech module at once, equip 6 consumables or pick my own quirks. Did I miss that somehow?
#6
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Posted 17 May 2017 - 04:38 PM
Time Sink - anyone who takes an hour to do up a mech in the Skill Tree is doing it wrong (except perhaps the first time through if they are reading every node). It takes me about 4 minutes, roughly the time it takes to change a couple weapons in the loadout. Plus, I've read a lot of threads, I haven't seen any where someone said that. Made-up facts are best facts, I guess.
Adds Nothing New - Survival Tree, Hig Explosive Gauss Charge, Ammo Capacity, Consumables slots, JJ tree, the ability to add functions to mechs that never had them before, etc. Incorrect facts are almost as good as made-up facts.
No new reward system - I can't even tell what your point here is. You are talking about unwanted nodes (you mean like Arm Reflex and Pinpoint?), you're repeating what you said in the previous point, and then you're talking about some sort of reward that would promote all nodes be used? Clarify this and I might be able to reply.
New skill tree is woe - That's your opinion; you aren't a new player. I don't see any new players complaining, actually, although I'm sure some must. Skill tree has nothing to do with low populations (that have existed for months), T1-T5 matchmaking (which has existed for months), or new players going up against pilots with full skills and modules, which has also existed for months.
I like to drive mechs - Same deal, take an unskilled, unmoduled Atlas in the old system up against a fully geared one. See how it turns out. First you say the Skill Tree only gives us what we had before, then you say it somehow magnifies the gains we had before. 'Worth on the battlefield not mechlab' is a silly argument given we had Elite/Mastered mechs before, with modules, fully customizable in Mechlab, that in some cases were more bonused than we can make now. Unless you are arguing for all stock mode, no skills, no modules, then Mechlab will win many battles before you ever step on the field of battle, and every BT/MW title has always been that way.
Medium Assaults - again, first you say nothing new, then you say it adds a game-breaking new feature. But at least it's a valid point this time. Tankier mechs may well turn out to be a problem, although personally I don't think it will. Any armor they gain is easily removed by someone with more focused use of Mobility, Operations and Firepower tree.
You will likely dismiss this as some form of attack, but these are simply facts. Your post basically looks like you tossed out a bunch of half-formed thoughts hoping they would look like some kind of rational critique of the Skill Tree. I get that you don't like it, and that is fine, but at least try to keep the criticism on track with what is actually there.
Adds Nothing New - Survival Tree, Hig Explosive Gauss Charge, Ammo Capacity, Consumables slots, JJ tree, the ability to add functions to mechs that never had them before, etc. Incorrect facts are almost as good as made-up facts.
No new reward system - I can't even tell what your point here is. You are talking about unwanted nodes (you mean like Arm Reflex and Pinpoint?), you're repeating what you said in the previous point, and then you're talking about some sort of reward that would promote all nodes be used? Clarify this and I might be able to reply.
New skill tree is woe - That's your opinion; you aren't a new player. I don't see any new players complaining, actually, although I'm sure some must. Skill tree has nothing to do with low populations (that have existed for months), T1-T5 matchmaking (which has existed for months), or new players going up against pilots with full skills and modules, which has also existed for months.
I like to drive mechs - Same deal, take an unskilled, unmoduled Atlas in the old system up against a fully geared one. See how it turns out. First you say the Skill Tree only gives us what we had before, then you say it somehow magnifies the gains we had before. 'Worth on the battlefield not mechlab' is a silly argument given we had Elite/Mastered mechs before, with modules, fully customizable in Mechlab, that in some cases were more bonused than we can make now. Unless you are arguing for all stock mode, no skills, no modules, then Mechlab will win many battles before you ever step on the field of battle, and every BT/MW title has always been that way.
Medium Assaults - again, first you say nothing new, then you say it adds a game-breaking new feature. But at least it's a valid point this time. Tankier mechs may well turn out to be a problem, although personally I don't think it will. Any armor they gain is easily removed by someone with more focused use of Mobility, Operations and Firepower tree.
You will likely dismiss this as some form of attack, but these are simply facts. Your post basically looks like you tossed out a bunch of half-formed thoughts hoping they would look like some kind of rational critique of the Skill Tree. I get that you don't like it, and that is fine, but at least try to keep the criticism on track with what is actually there.
Edited by MadBadger, 17 May 2017 - 04:41 PM.
#7
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Posted 17 May 2017 - 05:52 PM
Ruar, on 17 May 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:
You are not including all of the data though. You've cherry picked the items you like.
New tree = one mech to max out; old tree = three mechs to max
New feature- customization. Granted this customization is not as effective as it could be, but at least it's there. The new tree forces people to pick and choose skills beyond two or three modules. This tree is like having 15 modules but you have to pick how much boost each of those modules actually do up to a cap.
Your reward argument is nonsensical. I could even argue that the new tree is just frustrating enough you feel a sense of accomplishment getting your build laid out the way you want, something the old tree only offered when you hit elite and mastered. The new tree can provide that reward time and time again as you make changes to your build and skill choices.
Your worth has a lot to do with how you perform in the mechlab. Build a bad foundation and you'll have a bad mech. The skill tree is not much different than the boost received from someone getting good modules and someone picking bad ones.
New tree = one mech to max out; old tree = three mechs to max
New feature- customization. Granted this customization is not as effective as it could be, but at least it's there. The new tree forces people to pick and choose skills beyond two or three modules. This tree is like having 15 modules but you have to pick how much boost each of those modules actually do up to a cap.
Your reward argument is nonsensical. I could even argue that the new tree is just frustrating enough you feel a sense of accomplishment getting your build laid out the way you want, something the old tree only offered when you hit elite and mastered. The new tree can provide that reward time and time again as you make changes to your build and skill choices.
Your worth has a lot to do with how you perform in the mechlab. Build a bad foundation and you'll have a bad mech. The skill tree is not much different than the boost received from someone getting good modules and someone picking bad ones.
So the old tree meant more revenue. Yeah, guess that is bad for the game.
"Granted this customization"...half positives always lose the discussion.
How much does it cost to try no combinations? And you missed my entire point about rewards. How about scouting rewards so that people focus on the infotech tree instead of firepower? I am talking incentives to use all skills, not how you feel customizing.
And making bad modules choices...I could just swap it out. So once I place a bad SP I can just swap it out? Is that how it works? It doesn't work that way. There are penalties for bad choices now.
So overall zero for four.
Old skill tree still > than the new one.
#8
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Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:01 PM
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:
How much does it cost to try no combinations? And you missed my entire point about rewards. How about scouting rewards so that people focus on the infotech tree instead of firepower? I am talking incentives to use all skills, not how you feel customizing.
There are currently scouting rewards in game already. Most people don't chase them though. However, Lights can make decent money off them if they play to them. The new Sensor skills will help with that and provide a bit more of an advantage for players.
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:
And making bad modules choices...I could just swap it out. So once I place a bad SP I can just swap it out? Is that how it works? It doesn't work that way. There are penalties for bad choices now.
If you made a bad module choice, you were out 3 million to 6 million C-bills. If you make a bad SP choice, you are out a minuscule amount of 45,000 C-bills and 800 XP, plus the refit cost for the new node. Worst case scenario, it's 90,000 C-bills and 1,600 XP plus the cost of refit. That's still a lot better than spending between 3 million and 6 million C-bills on the wrong module.
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:
So overall zero for four.
This describes your emotional and completely unhinged accounting of the Skill Tree more than it actually does the Skill Tree itself.
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:
Old skill tree still > than the new one.
Not so. Give it time, and you will see. For now though, it's "new" and "different" so it's an inconvenience for you. Instead of coming here to rage post, you should approach it more openly and actually give it a chance.
#9
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Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:07 PM
MadBadger, on 17 May 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:
Time Sink - anyone who takes an hour to do up a mech in the Skill Tree is doing it wrong (except perhaps the first time through if they are reading every node). It takes me about 4 minutes, roughly the time it takes to change a couple weapons in the loadout. Plus, I've read a lot of threads, I haven't seen any where someone said that. Made-up facts are best facts, I guess.
Adds Nothing New - Survival Tree, Hig Explosive Gauss Charge, Ammo Capacity, Consumables slots, JJ tree, the ability to add functions to mechs that never had them before, etc. Incorrect facts are almost as good as made-up facts.
No new reward system - I can't even tell what your point here is. You are talking about unwanted nodes (you mean like Arm Reflex and Pinpoint?), you're repeating what you said in the previous point, and then you're talking about some sort of reward that would promote all nodes be used? Clarify this and I might be able to reply.
New skill tree is woe - That's your opinion; you aren't a new player. I don't see any new players complaining, actually, although I'm sure some must. Skill tree has nothing to do with low populations (that have existed for months), T1-T5 matchmaking (which has existed for months), or new players going up against pilots with full skills and modules, which has also existed for months.
I like to drive mechs - Same deal, take an unskilled, unmoduled Atlas in the old system up against a fully geared one. See how it turns out. First you say the Skill Tree only gives us what we had before, then you say it somehow magnifies the gains we had before. 'Worth on the battlefield not mechlab' is a silly argument given we had Elite/Mastered mechs before, with modules, fully customizable in Mechlab, that in some cases were more bonused than we can make now. Unless you are arguing for all stock mode, no skills, no modules, then Mechlab will win many battles before you ever step on the field of battle, and every BT/MW title has always been that way.
Medium Assaults - again, first you say nothing new, then you say it adds a game-breaking new feature. But at least it's a valid point this time. Tankier mechs may well turn out to be a problem, although personally I don't think it will. Any armor they gain is easily removed by someone with more focused use of Mobility, Operations and Firepower tree.
You will likely dismiss this as some form of attack, but these are simply facts. Your post basically looks like you tossed out a bunch of half-formed thoughts hoping they would look like some kind of rational critique of the Skill Tree. I get that you don't like it, and that is fine, but at least try to keep the criticism on track with what is actually there.
Adds Nothing New - Survival Tree, Hig Explosive Gauss Charge, Ammo Capacity, Consumables slots, JJ tree, the ability to add functions to mechs that never had them before, etc. Incorrect facts are almost as good as made-up facts.
No new reward system - I can't even tell what your point here is. You are talking about unwanted nodes (you mean like Arm Reflex and Pinpoint?), you're repeating what you said in the previous point, and then you're talking about some sort of reward that would promote all nodes be used? Clarify this and I might be able to reply.
New skill tree is woe - That's your opinion; you aren't a new player. I don't see any new players complaining, actually, although I'm sure some must. Skill tree has nothing to do with low populations (that have existed for months), T1-T5 matchmaking (which has existed for months), or new players going up against pilots with full skills and modules, which has also existed for months.
I like to drive mechs - Same deal, take an unskilled, unmoduled Atlas in the old system up against a fully geared one. See how it turns out. First you say the Skill Tree only gives us what we had before, then you say it somehow magnifies the gains we had before. 'Worth on the battlefield not mechlab' is a silly argument given we had Elite/Mastered mechs before, with modules, fully customizable in Mechlab, that in some cases were more bonused than we can make now. Unless you are arguing for all stock mode, no skills, no modules, then Mechlab will win many battles before you ever step on the field of battle, and every BT/MW title has always been that way.
Medium Assaults - again, first you say nothing new, then you say it adds a game-breaking new feature. But at least it's a valid point this time. Tankier mechs may well turn out to be a problem, although personally I don't think it will. Any armor they gain is easily removed by someone with more focused use of Mobility, Operations and Firepower tree.
You will likely dismiss this as some form of attack, but these are simply facts. Your post basically looks like you tossed out a bunch of half-formed thoughts hoping they would look like some kind of rational critique of the Skill Tree. I get that you don't like it, and that is fine, but at least try to keep the criticism on track with what is actually there.
Wow. Nice try but no.
4 minutes. Wait a second, the skill tree that is supposed to add great diversity to the game only takes 4 minutes per mech to achieve it? Or is it as we feared, people will gravity to cut and pasting a l33t build for every mech. So much for diversity. And 300 times 4 minutes...20 hours I do not want to spend thank you. Ruling: Time sink.
Please name these functions mechs never had before. We did have jumpjets and extra consumable slots before, so why mention? So all that work to add ammo capacity and a slot modification to the most broken weapon in-game? How long do you think it would have taken in time and how many resources just to add those two? Maybe left enough for a map or two?
I know you can't grasp the reward conversation. You are brainwashed to button mash like the rest. Congrats drone!
Yes T1 has been open to T5 for months, but the gap between the two players has widen as the new skill tree has more influence than the old skill tree. Can you follow that? Widening the gap is not a good thing. Nor is the fact it takes longer to close it, especially when going against pilots with a huge head start.
Please try and think a little. We have the same things, but instead of everyone having the same things now some people have all the things and some have none. A new pilot in the old system had the same quirks on their mech as a pilot with 10,000 matches piloting the same mech.
And I want to be dropping in my mech, not sitting in the mech lab. Are you saying the skill tree mini game should be the large determinant on how you do piloting that mech? I say set it all to zero and get rid of all the crutches. But I am afraid that scares the hell out of the tiny Tim's of the game.
And yes, nothing new. Mechs had armor before, right? They have armor now, right? So nothing new but now you can have lots more of it with no logical sense behind it. GG close PGI.
My thought are hardly half formed, and based upon the retorts based on fact. Instead the responses are weak defenses of the skill tree by people who benefit from it. I benefit from the skill tree, but I choose to remain objective.
So old skill tree still >>than new.
#10
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Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:07 PM
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:
Point by point what follows describes why the old skill tree is better than the new. If you would like to provide counterpoints and add to the discussion, great! If you have nothing and just want to ***** or character assassinate, please take your misery elsewhere.
Now on to the list.
Time sink- I love people reading posts where people say, "After an hour of playing with the new skill tree my mech performs just as well as before". So you spent an hour to end up where you started. And you think that is a good thing? Then I guess your time is not that valuable or maybe you do not own that many mechs (because maybe your time is not that valuable). Question, would you spend an hour in line just to end up at the back of the line?
Adds nothing new- What new features were added with this glorious skill tree? Zero, zip, nada. We already had what this new skill tree had to offer in simpler form. Now if there was a hand-to-hand tree or a field repair tree or a mech commander tree or just any new feature then there would be reason to create a new tree. But instead we are praising PGI for giving us something we already had.
No new reward system- Day one hour one and people are giving instructions on how to avoid useless nodes. So that means PGI spent time and money giving us a skill tree with something that we already have and that we already do not use. Creating new rewards that would promote all nodes to be used...that is crazy talk! Old tree is fine for same old reward system.
New skill tree is woe for new players- People are saying, "This is great for new players. It gives them a sense of progression!" Huh? How much "progression" is to be had with low player populations and the gates open between T1 and T5? How much fun will it be for a new player to pilot a new mech with no nodes unlocked versus a bloodthirsty try hard with max firepower destroying them in one shot and max armor they can't pierce? The new skill tree is a seal clubbers wet dream. The old skill tree in and of itself did not create a huge separation between new and old players.
I like to drive mechs- the new skill tree has a more pronounced effect on how well you perform than with the old skill tree. Don't believe me? Find a friend that doesn't know how to play beyond having run the tutorial. Let them pilot your fully skilled Atlas and you pilot an Atlas with no skill nodes unlocked. Let me know how that goes. Your worth should be proven on the battlefield, not the mechlab.
New skill tree, creating medium assaults since 2017- Lastly, the old skill tree you could tell the difference between a medium and an assault. The new skill tree it can be impossible. A fully skilled Vindicator should not have 9 less front CT armor than a non-skilled Boar's Head. Period. That is just plain broken.
Looking forward to your responses!
Now on to the list.
Time sink- I love people reading posts where people say, "After an hour of playing with the new skill tree my mech performs just as well as before". So you spent an hour to end up where you started. And you think that is a good thing? Then I guess your time is not that valuable or maybe you do not own that many mechs (because maybe your time is not that valuable). Question, would you spend an hour in line just to end up at the back of the line?
Adds nothing new- What new features were added with this glorious skill tree? Zero, zip, nada. We already had what this new skill tree had to offer in simpler form. Now if there was a hand-to-hand tree or a field repair tree or a mech commander tree or just any new feature then there would be reason to create a new tree. But instead we are praising PGI for giving us something we already had.
No new reward system- Day one hour one and people are giving instructions on how to avoid useless nodes. So that means PGI spent time and money giving us a skill tree with something that we already have and that we already do not use. Creating new rewards that would promote all nodes to be used...that is crazy talk! Old tree is fine for same old reward system.
New skill tree is woe for new players- People are saying, "This is great for new players. It gives them a sense of progression!" Huh? How much "progression" is to be had with low player populations and the gates open between T1 and T5? How much fun will it be for a new player to pilot a new mech with no nodes unlocked versus a bloodthirsty try hard with max firepower destroying them in one shot and max armor they can't pierce? The new skill tree is a seal clubbers wet dream. The old skill tree in and of itself did not create a huge separation between new and old players.
I like to drive mechs- the new skill tree has a more pronounced effect on how well you perform than with the old skill tree. Don't believe me? Find a friend that doesn't know how to play beyond having run the tutorial. Let them pilot your fully skilled Atlas and you pilot an Atlas with no skill nodes unlocked. Let me know how that goes. Your worth should be proven on the battlefield, not the mechlab.
New skill tree, creating medium assaults since 2017- Lastly, the old skill tree you could tell the difference between a medium and an assault. The new skill tree it can be impossible. A fully skilled Vindicator should not have 9 less front CT armor than a non-skilled Boar's Head. Period. That is just plain broken.
Looking forward to your responses!
Same ol salt. Yep, certainly needed it's own thread.
#11
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- Legendary Founder
- 2,913 posts
Member
- LocationTea with Romano
Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:11 PM
Nightmare1, on 17 May 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:
Not so. Give it time, and you will see. For now though, it's "new" and "different" so it's an inconvenience for you. Instead of coming here to rage post, you should approach it more openly and actually give it a chance.
Point by point arguments are rage post, or people that disagree with you are "rage posters"? C'mon, be honest.
How much time? Been here four years, maybe another four years? Maybe by then I can finish skill'ing my mechs up.
Oh and tell me about those great scouting rewards. I await the influx of triple AMS, TAG, NARC, no weapon mechs because the rewards are stunningly awesome.
All that money and time to stand still. It is okay to admit, really.
#12
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- Ace Of Spades
- 1,378 posts
Member
Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:13 PM
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:
So the old tree meant more revenue. Yeah, guess that is bad for the game.
"Granted this customization"...half positives always lose the discussion.
How much does it cost to try no combinations? And you missed my entire point about rewards. How about scouting rewards so that people focus on the infotech tree instead of firepower? I am talking incentives to use all skills, not how you feel customizing.
And making bad modules choices...I could just swap it out. So once I place a bad SP I can just swap it out? Is that how it works? It doesn't work that way. There are penalties for bad choices now.
So overall zero for four.
Old skill tree still > than the new one.
"Granted this customization"...half positives always lose the discussion.
How much does it cost to try no combinations? And you missed my entire point about rewards. How about scouting rewards so that people focus on the infotech tree instead of firepower? I am talking incentives to use all skills, not how you feel customizing.
And making bad modules choices...I could just swap it out. So once I place a bad SP I can just swap it out? Is that how it works? It doesn't work that way. There are penalties for bad choices now.
So overall zero for four.
Old skill tree still > than the new one.
Old tree meant more grind to get the one mech you like. I have three marauder's but I only like one of them. However under the old tree I had to play all three in order to maximize the one I like. It's not a revenue thing, it's a fun thing.
Half positives are still positive. You can't arbitrarily dismiss them simply because you want something better. It's an improvement, even if there is more room to improve.
You made no point about rewards. You rambled about rewards without making sense. We've had the role rewards discussion and I've consistently shown you the logic of how it can work and why what you are thinking is flawed. You consistently deny the logic. That doesn't mean I'm wrong, it just means you refuse to admit you are wrong.
You specifically said someone's worth shouldn't be measured because of the mechlab and I specifically showed you why that idea was wrong. Instead of engaging that thought you are building a straw man.
You can deny the answers you don't like but it doesn't mean your point carries. Continue telling yourself you know something though, the rest of us know better. You're kind of like the Jon Snow of MWO.
#13
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- The Death Wish
- 2,529 posts
Member
- LocationTFS Aurora, 1000km up.
Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:41 PM
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:
Point by point arguments are rage post, or people that disagree with you are "rage posters"? C'mon, be honest.
Point by point posts are good for fact based arguments. When those facts are made up or incorrect and the person posting has constantly made their dislike for the thing being posted about, before it even was available, that is rage posting.
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:
How much time? Been here four years, maybe another four years? Maybe by then I can finish skill'ing my mechs up.
You mean, actually play the game? *gasping while slapping cheeks*
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:
Oh and tell me about those great scouting rewards. I await the influx of triple AMS, TAG, NARC, no weapon mechs because the rewards are stunningly awesome.
No reward and no one does it as its worthless. Add a tiny reward and all of the sudden its broken? Wow this tells a lot about your mental capabilities.
BTW; AMS, TAG, and NARC are all considered weapons. They are support weapons. The AMS provides cover from indirect attack. TAG and NARC assist the team in indirect attacking. Before hardly anyone used it outside of mass unit group LRM trolling. Now I even see some PUGs, in lights and/or mediums, having one or two of them to actually support their team instead of running face first into the enemy assault line.
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:
All that money and time to stand still. It is okay to admit, really.
How is it any different from sitting still and ERLL/ERPPC sniping or LRMing from 1200m? For one, they actually accomplish something that can benefit the team. Two, if they sit still while TAGing or NARCing, then they are being dumb and don't understand how to do it "correctly".
Not going to comment on your OP as 1) It's wrong and 2) Everyone else has already pointed out why its wrong.
#14
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- FP Veteran - Beta 2
- 3,735 posts
Member
Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:47 PM
I am going to put my vote for and on the new skill tree. Right now I got 481m ER Medium lasers and 713m ER Large Pulse. I get better performance of my lasers without paying for modules. I don't have to grind three mechs. It certainly cleans up the messy and unmaintainable quirk system. This is certainly far more elegant.
#15
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- Knight Errant
- 372 posts
Member
- LocationTraverse City, MI
Posted 17 May 2017 - 07:01 PM
I'm just gonna throw my .02 in and say:
old skill tree had quirks and, sure, PGI gave you some freebies to get your old mechs maybe within spitting distance of what they were before
BUT
if you're an IS player and you so happen to buy a new mech...be prepared to pay the quirk tax, otherwise you're in for a crappy grind.
old skill tree had quirks and, sure, PGI gave you some freebies to get your old mechs maybe within spitting distance of what they were before
BUT
if you're an IS player and you so happen to buy a new mech...be prepared to pay the quirk tax, otherwise you're in for a crappy grind.
#16
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- The Hungry
- 23 posts
Member
Posted 17 May 2017 - 07:06 PM
First thing: I like the skill tree. I like customizing my mechs for the loadout I want to use. I like having to sacrifice in one area to get the best out of another area.
My main issue with this patch and the changes they made is the way I play overall.
Before the skill tree, I would buy (usually) 3 variants at a time, and play each one at least until I got a win for the 2x exp every day. I'd then use that exp to skill my new mechs. Doing this I was motivated to play pretty much every day for at least an hour or two.
With things now, I have a decent amount of GSP (on top of 151 out of 165 mechs that were already mastered) If I buy a new mech, I can easily grab 91 skill points and fully master it before playing it even once. I also no longer see a point to playing that "at least one win per day per mech" that motivated me up to this point.
I am still having fun and still learning how things work, especially with the new changes. I am really looking forward to the Civil War new tech (though I will be out of the country when it drops, I'll be 2 weeks behind everyone else when I get back) but I feel like being able to master every mech without even playing it first takes some of the enjoyment out of the game.
My main issue with this patch and the changes they made is the way I play overall.
Before the skill tree, I would buy (usually) 3 variants at a time, and play each one at least until I got a win for the 2x exp every day. I'd then use that exp to skill my new mechs. Doing this I was motivated to play pretty much every day for at least an hour or two.
With things now, I have a decent amount of GSP (on top of 151 out of 165 mechs that were already mastered) If I buy a new mech, I can easily grab 91 skill points and fully master it before playing it even once. I also no longer see a point to playing that "at least one win per day per mech" that motivated me up to this point.
I am still having fun and still learning how things work, especially with the new changes. I am really looking forward to the Civil War new tech (though I will be out of the country when it drops, I'll be 2 weeks behind everyone else when I get back) but I feel like being able to master every mech without even playing it first takes some of the enjoyment out of the game.
#17
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- 222 posts
Member
Posted 17 May 2017 - 07:17 PM
Ruar, on 17 May 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:
New tree = one mech to max out; old tree = three mechs to max
STOP USING THIS FALSE EQUIVALENCY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously... PGI could have removed the Rule of Three at any point in the past years, it has absolutely nothing to do with the Skill Maze.
#18
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- Bad Company
- 278 posts
Member
- LocationAustralia
Posted 17 May 2017 - 07:31 PM
i specd 2 mechs last night, CDA 2A & DRG 1C, cda is all mediums, 1C runs gauss + 2ERL. CDA was specd out to get max agility but speed is only 146 - maybe I missed a node? No YAW nodes were deliberately chosen but I may have had to click a couple to get what I wanted, so the mech is max'd agility, max'd firepower and the left overs went into TIG and something was left for rdep. Almost as good as the CDA 2A before patch but not the same heat distribution or capacity and it handles nearly as well, doesnt stop as fast. DRG 1C was a bit different, i specd adv zoom because my screen is small - now having a small screen is even more of a disadvantage because it costs performance to compensate - NOT IMPRESSED PGI. And then the rest of the mech was specd for max firepower and agility but because i only run 2ERL's I sacrificed some heat capacity for durability stuff.
I have to repeat this 150 times! There may be a few variations, I have 2 lrm boats, they will get the missile quirks whereas the 1C got the gauss charge quirks but firepower will be max'd, agility will be max'd and TIG will be selected for all mechs. Zero chance of wasting a node on any of that uav/consumable junk but I will miss my improved uavs & arty. I expect every mech to end up the same because performance will mean we all want the same stuff.
I have to repeat this 150 times! There may be a few variations, I have 2 lrm boats, they will get the missile quirks whereas the 1C got the gauss charge quirks but firepower will be max'd, agility will be max'd and TIG will be selected for all mechs. Zero chance of wasting a node on any of that uav/consumable junk but I will miss my improved uavs & arty. I expect every mech to end up the same because performance will mean we all want the same stuff.
#19
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- The Privateer
- 2,688 posts
Member
Posted 17 May 2017 - 07:36 PM
New things in Skill Tree:
No more "Rule of Tree" which is huge for everyone including new players.
New choices we did not have before:
LBX spread
Missile Spread
Velocity
Laser Duration
Magazine capacity
Gauss charge
UAC Jam reduction
Missile rack
Armor Hardening
Skeletal Density
Reinforced Casing
Entire Jump Jet Tree
Extra consumable slots
Choices to take 91 of 237 nodes. There is so much discussion about what nodes are best to take and so many disagreements about it that it looks like many of the nodes are well balanced.
Old tree you took Radar Derp and Seismic Weapon range Weapon cooldown. Those were the only choices you had. Virtually every Mech was the same. Sometimes someone would use a Target Info Gathering.
Some day soon there will be MetaMech like listing about what someone thinks is meta but there is no way this new system will ever be as "cookie cutter' as the old tree.
It needed to get in game for testing. It looks daunting when you first look at it but once you learn what everything does the Mastering process becomes really easy and can be done quickly. I am doing them in 7-8 minutes now after doing 9 of mine. The devs are going to continue to improve the ST along with quirk adjustments for balance and new tech.
You might as well get used to it. It is not going away. You can try it and adapt to it or you can quit. If you do not like figuring out builds then I am sure a lot of people will be posting theirs which you can copy over the next couple of weeks.
No more "Rule of Tree" which is huge for everyone including new players.
New choices we did not have before:
LBX spread
Missile Spread
Velocity
Laser Duration
Magazine capacity
Gauss charge
UAC Jam reduction
Missile rack
Armor Hardening
Skeletal Density
Reinforced Casing
Entire Jump Jet Tree
Extra consumable slots
Choices to take 91 of 237 nodes. There is so much discussion about what nodes are best to take and so many disagreements about it that it looks like many of the nodes are well balanced.
Old tree you took Radar Derp and Seismic Weapon range Weapon cooldown. Those were the only choices you had. Virtually every Mech was the same. Sometimes someone would use a Target Info Gathering.
Some day soon there will be MetaMech like listing about what someone thinks is meta but there is no way this new system will ever be as "cookie cutter' as the old tree.
It needed to get in game for testing. It looks daunting when you first look at it but once you learn what everything does the Mastering process becomes really easy and can be done quickly. I am doing them in 7-8 minutes now after doing 9 of mine. The devs are going to continue to improve the ST along with quirk adjustments for balance and new tech.
You might as well get used to it. It is not going away. You can try it and adapt to it or you can quit. If you do not like figuring out builds then I am sure a lot of people will be posting theirs which you can copy over the next couple of weeks.
Edited by Rampage, 17 May 2017 - 08:02 PM.
#20
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- 2,831 posts
Member
Posted 17 May 2017 - 10:37 PM
Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:
Point by point what follows describes why the old skill tree is better than the new. If you would like to provide counterpoints and add to the discussion, great! If you have nothing and just want to ***** or character assassinate, please take your misery elsewhere.
Now on to the list.
Time sink- I love people reading posts where people say, "After an hour of playing with the new skill tree my mech performs just as well as before". So you spent an hour to end up where you started. And you think that is a good thing? Then I guess your time is not that valuable or maybe you do not own that many mechs (because maybe your time is not that valuable). Question, would you spend an hour in line just to end up at the back of the line?
Adds nothing new- What new features were added with this glorious skill tree? Zero, zip, nada. We already had what this new skill tree had to offer in simpler form. Now if there was a hand-to-hand tree or a field repair tree or a mech commander tree or just any new feature then there would be reason to create a new tree. But instead we are praising PGI for giving us something we already had.
No new reward system- Day one hour one and people are giving instructions on how to avoid useless nodes. So that means PGI spent time and money giving us a skill tree with something that we already have and that we already do not use. Creating new rewards that would promote all nodes to be used...that is crazy talk! Old tree is fine for same old reward system.
New skill tree is woe for new players- People are saying, "This is great for new players. It gives them a sense of progression!" Huh? How much "progression" is to be had with low player populations and the gates open between T1 and T5? How much fun will it be for a new player to pilot a new mech with no nodes unlocked versus a bloodthirsty try hard with max firepower destroying them in one shot and max armor they can't pierce? The new skill tree is a seal clubbers wet dream. The old skill tree in and of itself did not create a huge separation between new and old players.
I like to drive mechs- the new skill tree has a more pronounced effect on how well you perform than with the old skill tree. Don't believe me? Find a friend that doesn't know how to play beyond having run the tutorial. Let them pilot your fully skilled Atlas and you pilot an Atlas with no skill nodes unlocked. Let me know how that goes. Your worth should be proven on the battlefield, not the mechlab.
New skill tree, creating medium assaults since 2017- Lastly, the old skill tree you could tell the difference between a medium and an assault. The new skill tree it can be impossible. A fully skilled Vindicator should not have 9 less front CT armor than a non-skilled Boar's Head. Period. That is just plain broken.
Looking forward to your responses!
Now on to the list.
Time sink- I love people reading posts where people say, "After an hour of playing with the new skill tree my mech performs just as well as before". So you spent an hour to end up where you started. And you think that is a good thing? Then I guess your time is not that valuable or maybe you do not own that many mechs (because maybe your time is not that valuable). Question, would you spend an hour in line just to end up at the back of the line?
Adds nothing new- What new features were added with this glorious skill tree? Zero, zip, nada. We already had what this new skill tree had to offer in simpler form. Now if there was a hand-to-hand tree or a field repair tree or a mech commander tree or just any new feature then there would be reason to create a new tree. But instead we are praising PGI for giving us something we already had.
No new reward system- Day one hour one and people are giving instructions on how to avoid useless nodes. So that means PGI spent time and money giving us a skill tree with something that we already have and that we already do not use. Creating new rewards that would promote all nodes to be used...that is crazy talk! Old tree is fine for same old reward system.
New skill tree is woe for new players- People are saying, "This is great for new players. It gives them a sense of progression!" Huh? How much "progression" is to be had with low player populations and the gates open between T1 and T5? How much fun will it be for a new player to pilot a new mech with no nodes unlocked versus a bloodthirsty try hard with max firepower destroying them in one shot and max armor they can't pierce? The new skill tree is a seal clubbers wet dream. The old skill tree in and of itself did not create a huge separation between new and old players.
I like to drive mechs- the new skill tree has a more pronounced effect on how well you perform than with the old skill tree. Don't believe me? Find a friend that doesn't know how to play beyond having run the tutorial. Let them pilot your fully skilled Atlas and you pilot an Atlas with no skill nodes unlocked. Let me know how that goes. Your worth should be proven on the battlefield, not the mechlab.
New skill tree, creating medium assaults since 2017- Lastly, the old skill tree you could tell the difference between a medium and an assault. The new skill tree it can be impossible. A fully skilled Vindicator should not have 9 less front CT armor than a non-skilled Boar's Head. Period. That is just plain broken.
Looking forward to your responses!
Just...no...
The old skill tree was a major power gap. Unskilled was fodder for skilled...
The thing you described about a 'friend' piloting your mech, the same is true of the old unskilled/skilled tree.
What does the new skill tree add? Nothing? Oh, how about...THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE HOW TO TUNE YOUR OWN MECH instead of being locked into builds that specifically take advantage of the mech quirks? Your 'time sink' thing plays into this as well, as its mostly players 'reskilling' their mechs that sink time and system changes will ALWAYS require a time sink to adjust to.
The old skill system didn't create a new/old player gap? BWUAHAHAHA, what rock do you live under? It created an EVEN BIGGER ONE. -dies laughing-
Also, you like to 'drive mechs'? So do I, which is why the combination of engine desync (they feel so great and weighted now) and the new skill tree makes every single mech pilot exactly how I want them too instead of having to slap cookie cutter 'metatard builds' onto them if I want to be 'competitive'.
Overall, your OP just reads as a massive 'QQ I'm bad at/dislike the new skill system'.
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