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Pinpoint Accuracy Should Require A Target Lock


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#21 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:46 AM

View PostKhobai, on 08 June 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:


Except the idea wasnt tried properly. It was set up for failure by PGI's incompetence.

ECM still granted stealth. Which made ECM anti-laser since it blocked sensor locks. Which is why people hated it so much.

ECM stealth needed to be removed to make the concept viable.



Because they didnt get rid of friggin ECM stealth. So ECM was reducing laser damage. That stupidity is the main reason why the community was against it.

They need to get rid of ECM stealth then reboot the idea of damage being reduced without sensor locks. Having it directly affect damage is the only way to make sensors and holding sensor locks actually matter.


Definitely made TAG, BAP, scouting and other info warfare stuff actually useful then, didn't it?

The only way info warfare will ever be a thing in this game that actually matters at all is if its directly effecting the only thing that matters in this game: Damage.


Besides that, people acted like it made their lasers heal the enemies they cried so bad, if I remember correctly they still did about 75% of their damage at optimal ranges and if you were using weapons that had long optimal ranges in the first place or actually just close to the enemy then it didn't effect you at all.

#22 CK16

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:46 AM

Even a hud has shake...your head will be shaking....I am sorry if you are moving at 130kph....you won't be able to aim for ****! So no you hot jocks in lights running fully speed and landing an aimed shot? Ha....HAHA...that's not a thing in any game (aka you can't sprint and aim....)

#23 Khobai

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:47 AM

Quote

The only way info warfare will ever be a thing in this game that actually matters at all is if its directly effecting the only thing that matters in this game: Damage.


exactly

Quote

Definitely made TAG, BAP, scouting and other info warfare stuff actually useful then, didn't it?


except TAG, BAP, etc... dont even do what theyre supposed to do. Instead their only function is in countering overpowered ECM stealth, which is a function ECM isnt even supposed to have.

the main purpose of TAG is to call in strikes. Yet its not required for any of the strikes we have. And ARROWIV sadly doesnt even exist in MWO.

and the main purpose of BAP is to be able to detect enemies through buildings/terrain/obstacles. which it also isnt able to do. BAP is also supposed to let you use seismic probes that you can plant into the ground and detect when mechs go near them.

and ECM shouldnt grant any form of stealth. but it should prevent sensor sharing, which it used to do, but they removed that ability. ECM should also create fake radar contacts.

Info warfare would be way better if things actually did what they were supposed to do in addition to having an actual reason for obtaining/holding sensor locks (i.e. tying it into damage)

Edited by Khobai, 08 June 2017 - 09:53 AM.


#24 VanillaG

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:48 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 08 June 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:

This would simply be a massive buff to brawling, and would just invalidate the purpose of a lot of long range weaponry...

If you like your SRMs and Streaks, you're going to love it.

If you like your Gauss (charge), PPC, and PPCs (particularly IS), and ERLL you're going to hate yourself.

I would be perfectly fine for removing the Gauss charge and tweaking the weapon stats if you needed to have a target lock minimize the reticle shake. At longer ranges you might have enough shake without a lock to hit any section of a mech but bring the shake down with a lock to a single component. The change is all about having to invest in the lock to get that pinpoint accuracy, similar to how you need locks for LRMs to work.

#25 Mystere

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:49 AM

View PostWrathOfDeadguy, on 08 June 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

Get rid of convergence and, while you do increase TTK, you'll also render huge numbers of 'Mechs useless because the new meta will favor only those with a significant number of closely-grouped hardpoints.


But then again it can be argued that those same hardpoint clusters can be destroyed, rendering a Mech weaponless.


View PostWrathOfDeadguy, on 08 June 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

Remind me again how this solves more problems than it causes? Reticle shake (but preferably CoF, with a dynamic circle instead of an annoying wobbly crosshair) at high heat levels or throttle settings I can totally get behind. Eliminating convergence without target lock... now that's just asking for trouble, without even taking into consideration the oceans of salt it would produce. We don't need any more factors complicating our already convoluted mess of a balance system.


Yes, reticle shake is annoying and therefore a silly solution. And as I said previously, we are talking about HUDs and not iron sights after all.

#26 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:50 AM

View PostCK16, on 08 June 2017 - 09:46 AM, said:

Even a hud has shake...your head will be shaking....I am sorry if you are moving at 130kph....you won't be able to aim for ****! So no you hot jocks in lights running fully speed and landing an aimed shot? Ha....HAHA...that's not a thing in any game (aka you can't sprint and aim....)


I remember back in the good old days when shots in almost all games went where you told them but everyone in the game moved really fast and usually had jump packs of some sort so it was all about leading skill.

Now ever since CSGO took over with its camp in one spot or stop to shoot playstyle its all been about dealing with some game mechanics rather than being a good enough shot to hit a hard target.

View PostKhobai, on 08 June 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

exactly


Well, glad we see eye to eye.

Edited by Dakota1000, 08 June 2017 - 09:51 AM.


#27 Mystere

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:50 AM

View PostDakota1000, on 08 June 2017 - 09:17 AM, said:

Sometimes this community is one of the worst things holding the game back.


FTFY.

#28 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:51 AM

I am skeptical that something like REticle Shake would be all that useful. It seems it would still benefit the sniper from his safe position to deliver pinpoint accuracy.

I am also not convinced that playing around with convergence would really work. As others pointed out, this would have a very chassis-specific effect and might just alter whcih mechs run supreme, but not chance pinpoint precision.

Here is another suggestion that people won't like: Forced Chain-Fire. That 2 ERPCC + Gauss Rifle pinpoint alpha strike might suddenly take 1.5 seconds to execute, require a very steady aim, and allow enemies to react a bit better. Single Hit/Large Damage weapons would of course still be preferable for this kind of job, but you can "price this in" in various attributes of the weapon. Gauss Rifles have their charge-up, AC/20 low range...

#29 VanillaG

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:52 AM

View PostMystere, on 08 June 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

Frankly, I think reticle shake was/is a silly solution, and a random one is even worse. Reticle bloom practically does the same thing and is much more visually appealing. We are talking about HUDs and not iron sights after all.

You could express the shake behind the scenes as a reticle bloom with the shake being hidden. Basically the exact point is hidden somewhere in the bloomed reticle until you press the trigger. Though by doing that you introduce RNGesus which seems to be a pretty big issue with a segment of the player base.

#30 Mystere

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 10:04 AM

View PostVanillaG, on 08 June 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

You could express the shake behind the scenes as a reticle bloom with the shake being hidden. Basically the exact point is hidden somewhere in the bloomed reticle until you press the trigger. Though by doing that you introduce RNGesus which seems to be a pretty big issue with a segment of the player base.


What is ironic is that the current reticle shake implementation is random. It should be based off some form of harmonic oscillator equation instead.

Then hide all that, as you said, behind a bloomed reticle and we're golden.

Edited by Mystere, 08 June 2017 - 10:05 AM.


#31 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 10:05 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 08 June 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

I am skeptical that something like REticle Shake would be all that useful. It seems it would still benefit the sniper from his safe position to deliver pinpoint accuracy.

I am also not convinced that playing around with convergence would really work. As others pointed out, this would have a very chassis-specific effect and might just alter whcih mechs run supreme, but not chance pinpoint precision.

Here is another suggestion that people won't like: Forced Chain-Fire. That 2 ERPCC + Gauss Rifle pinpoint alpha strike might suddenly take 1.5 seconds to execute, require a very steady aim, and allow enemies to react a bit better. Single Hit/Large Damage weapons would of course still be preferable for this kind of job, but you can "price this in" in various attributes of the weapon. Gauss Rifles have their charge-up, AC/20 low range...


With frontloaded damage weapons being forced into chain fire what reason is there to even bring them compared to the much more damage to weight efficient lasers? Even now they aren't as commonly seen as lasers, just mostly used by the meta and comp crowds.

View PostKhobai, on 08 June 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

except TAG, BAP, etc... dont even do what theyre supposed to do. Instead their only function is in countering overpowered ECM stealth, which is a function ECM isnt even supposed to have.

the main purpose of TAG is to call in strikes. Yet its not required for any of the strikes we have. And ARROWIV sadly doesnt even exist in MWO.

and the main purpose of BAP is to be able to detect enemies through buildings/terrain/obstacles. which it also isnt able to do. BAP is also supposed to let you use seismic probes that you can plant into the ground and detect when mechs go near them.

and ECM shouldnt grant any form of stealth. but it should prevent sensor sharing, which it used to do, but they removed that ability. ECM should also create fake radar contacts.

Info warfare would be way better if things actually did what they were supposed to do in addition to having an actual reason for obtaining/holding sensor locks (i.e. tying it into damage)


I generally state suggestions based on what we actually have ingame rather than the lore or an ideal situation. For the most part ideal situation based suggestions are pipe dreams that have 0% chance of happening due to requiring many different base mechanics of the game to be changed at once, and for the most part we're lucky if PGI changes a single weapon system's mechanics once every other year (so far we've had gauss rifles getting charge up and flamers actually generating more heat on target than the person firing them, know any others?)

So for the most part ingame ECM provides a sort of stealth, at range, now much more weakened by the skill tree and now unupgraded wouldn't even effect anything outside of ERLL. The laser focusing requiring sensor lock thing they added was right during the time when the laser meta was in full effect and was adding some downside to the lasers, they're really easy to hit with and they deal a lot of damage but the enemy can spread them actively when shot and if you are too far away and not locking onto your target then you won't deal as much damage.

To be honest 90% of people complaining at the time whined about "muh backstabbing jenner 90m from the enemy isn't doing as much damage, its already a weak mech yadayada" meanwhile it was doing full damage anyway because of how close they were getting for their backstabs and they could have just pressed that neato R key two steps over from W.

They actually responded at the time by saying that pressing R was "too much work" or "took too much time" when they're light mechs (though all mechs should do it) in the first place and should be actually locking their targets for some support.


I don't know why I'm even bringing it up anymore here anyway, PGI stated twice they'd never do it again after the uproar, though PGI lying to me about getting back hard Cbills in the module refund does bring a bit of hope.

#32 jjm1

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 10:21 AM

Do you even quake bro.

Its like kids these days want the computer to play for them.

...kids these days... oh no... I just turned old.

#33 Brain Cancer

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 10:24 AM

Woulda been easy, but any work you don't have to do is good work, right?

Lock equals current convergence. No lock equals a default, fixed convergence (say,a few thousand meters out).

#34 Imperius

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 10:52 AM

THESE THREADS NEED TO AUTOMATICALLY BE LOCKED / MOVED OR DELETED!

SAME WITH LRM's ARE OVERPOWERED!

#35 WrathOfDeadguy

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 11:07 AM

View PostMystere, on 08 June 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

But then again it can be argued that those same hardpoint clusters can be destroyed, rendering a Mech weaponless.


...um. The problem is that the 'Mech with the cluster always gets the first shot, because it retains the ability to accurately snap-shoot without waiting for convergence. The risk of losing a large number of weapons at the same time is mitigated by the fact that any 'Mech which does not have a strong weapon cluster cannot target your cluster before you use it to punch their face in, because you're already firing by the time their weapons achieve the convergence they need to target your weapons. The convergence mechanic would protect you from snap-shot subtargeting while not preventing you from employing it. Only another 'Mech with a strong cluster could exploit your vulnerability, but since you could also exploit theirs that's a null trade- but every other 'Mech without that cluster receives a crippling performance nerf because they've already lost 30 or more points of armor before they can deliver accurate return fire.

That's not really even a case I should have to make, considering the number of deadside builds at higher levels of play. The risk of losing all your guns is obviously not even that great with instant convergence, so why would it suddenly become a problem for those builds if rapid subtargeting became more difficult?

#36 Ted Wayz

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 12:49 PM

View PostWrathOfDeadguy, on 08 June 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

Think about it: a 'Mech like the HBK-4P does not need to wait for a lock, because it has a cluster of six lasers that will already hit the same component when fired...

Based upon what people are saying I do not think this would remain true. Part of a firing solution is determining range. So if you didn't have lock then the weapons would converge at a default range or last range used which could have interesting results.

I like this idea mucho mucho.

#37 WrathOfDeadguy

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 01:03 PM

View PostTed Wayz, on 08 June 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

Based upon what people are saying I do not think this would remain true. Part of a firing solution is determining range. So if you didn't have lock then the weapons would converge at a default range or last range used which could have interesting results.

I like this idea mucho mucho.


Zero convergence is all weapons firing directly forward (or convergence set for infinite range). If you have multiple weapons close together on a single component, then even if they do not converge at all then they will still be able to produce single component accuracy. That makes a group of six lasers in a 2x6 grid quite powerful, and able to deliver high-damage precision snap-shots that the same number of weapons spaced across multiple components would not be able to give you if there were a mechanic requiring target locks (with the delay that entails) for weapon convergence.

The only way around that is to introduce a mechanic where weapon fire can scatter beyond zero convergence, which makes about as much sense as PGI's magic teleporting smokebomb artillery spotting mechanic.

#38 Jiang Wei

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 01:32 PM

Lets just remove skill from the game entirely and let the casuals rule.

#39 Pjwned

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 01:57 PM

View PostKhobai, on 08 June 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

PGI tried something like that already and they couldnt get it to work so they abandoned it. Its unlikely theyll ever try again.

The easiest and next best thing would be not allowing weapons to do any damage beyond optimum range without a target lock.


Except that they didn't do anything like that at all, they just **** out some lazy band-aid "fix" that didn't even accomplish anything worthwhile, didn't make any sense whatsoever, and was probably the most lazy copout solution PGI has (and will ever) come up with.

View PostDakota1000, on 08 June 2017 - 09:17 AM, said:


That's almost exactly what PGI did, but they were even softer on it and just made it not do as much damage without a target lock and reduced the optimal range just a little in the case of not being locked to further show that damage is reduced if you aren't targeting them.

For whatever reason the community, after begging for info warfare and being mad at people who never lock targets, went and started a huge dumpster fire shouting about the new buzz words "Ghost Range" and "Ghost Damage" and shouting at PGI to undo it and never try this again.


Sometimes this community is one of the worst things holding the game back.


Probably because the idea was absolute trash and didn't make any sense, if only because it only affected lasers which is the epitome of stupid.

PGI not following through with what they said they would do for info warfare is completely on them, not on the community for shouting down an idea that was irredeemably bad; PGI are the ones that threw out the baby with the bathwater when the community just wanted them to clean up the brown mess in the water.

If they had just stuck with the original idea of convergence based on target locks, which is obviously what their inspiration was for ghost damage, then it would have gone much more smoothly and been an actually good idea, but no instead the management decided to bastardize the idea into some half-baked trash.

#40 mike29tw

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 02:09 PM

You want more reticle shake before addressing instant convergence?

Oh no, I have no idea where my shots are gonna land, but all of them are gonna be pin-point... somewhere.





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