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Is It Time To Change How Sensors Work?


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#21 Willard Phule

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 09:27 AM

View PostAlmond Brown, on 09 June 2017 - 05:46 AM, said:


It still does but the "bubble" is not crazy large and a good Scout could keeps "eyes on" and stay outside the bubbles range (noted as 90m on Smurfy's)

MWO has a quasi C3 and slave system built in to every Mech, otherwise no one would take them, they add weight, and no one carries anything, that adds weight, that might benefit the Team, but doesn't add to their Alpha Firepower fcol, for the same reason. So thank PGI for that otherwise LRM would be a strictly direct fire system and we all know how standing out in the open, holding your own locks, works out in MWO. LOL!


No, actually, it doesn't. It blocks enemy signals but not friendlies. You can still always tell the friendlies from the enemy in the enemy's bubble.

#22 Brain Cancer

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 11:35 AM

Quote

MWO has a quasi C3 and slave system built in to every Mech, otherwise no one would take them, they add weight, and no one carries anything, that adds weight, that might benefit the Team, but doesn't add to their Alpha Firepower fcol, for the same reason. So thank PGI for that otherwise LRM would be a strictly direct fire system and we all know how standing out in the open, holding your own locks, works out in MWO. LOL!


I have yet to figure out one function of Battletech's C3 system that MWO gives people for free.

No, really. Indirect fire mode didn't suddenly happen for LRMs in the 3060's, it's something a single, unarmed infantry trooper can do for an entire battlefield in the Battletech rules. That a giant frickin' robot can't manage it without some kind of massive assistance is...ridiculous, at best.

#23 Stonekeg

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 12:24 PM

Hey Willard Phule,

That's an interesting idea. I haven't processed it fully so I don't have anything to add on the subject, but that was a very well written post. A lot of info, and very digestible. Just wanted to give you a shout out for that.

#24 Khobai

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 12:35 PM

Quote

MWO has a quasi C3 and slave system built in to every Mech,


Well technically sharing sensor information isnt C3. Mechs can likely do that without C3. Although Id be fine with only giving IS the ability to share sensor data and not giving that ability to Clans (but instead giving Clans more advanced sensors without the ability to share sensor info).

C3 is more like a cloud computer targeting system where mechs share sensor data and then the computer uses that data to figure out optimum firing solutions on all the enemies. Its much more than just sharing target information.

C3 Master Computer should be added though. It could give every IS mech in your lance a free level 3 targeting computer (that would stack with an actual targeting computer). So for 5 tons/5 crits youd be giving everyone in your lance the equivalent of a 3ton/3crit targeting computer. If I recall the C3 Master Computer comes with a free TAG too. So thatd be like 13 tons of stuff for only 5 tons.

Quote

ECM blocking IFF meant ECM mechs could completely isolate a mech and kill it without any of their team knowing unless they stopped, mid fight, and typed out their location in chat. It impaired teamwork and made the already Jesus-box ECM even more overpowered.


That was the whole point. And no it didnt impair teamwork. It encouraged people to stay with their team and NOT get isolated. It punished you for going off on your own and being isolated. Thats exactly how it should be.

ECM granting stealth accomplishes the opposite. It allows people to go off on their own and not stay with their team. ECM granting stealth impairs teamwork. But ECM isnt even supposed to give stealth anyway. ECM is supposed to disrupt equipment, sever sensor networks, and create fake radar signatures.

Edited by Khobai, 09 June 2017 - 12:45 PM.


#25 Brain Cancer

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 12:41 PM

Quote

C3 is more like a cloud computer targeting system where mechs share sensor data and then the computer uses that data to figure out optimum firing solutions on all the enemies.


This. Even 3025-era 'Mechs could share positional data and so on more than sufficient to generate indirect fire.

C3 networks are a zillion times more advanced- either in the C3 master/slave networks or C3i distributed networks. Heck, C3 Masters act as a TAG system by default.

#26 RoadblockXL

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 02:02 PM

View PostMystere, on 09 June 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:


That's the entire point.


Yeah, and it made playing the game with already uncoordinated pugs even worse than it was and was removed to improve gameplay.

View PostMystere, on 09 June 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:



And again that's the entire point. An ECM-equipped Mech right in the middle of the enemy deathball will be highly disruptive, and well-coordinated infiltrators will probably be the death of them.


Why would it be disruptive? If the whole team is standing together, someone just has to say "shoot the ECM mech" and it's dead. That's even assuming no body out of everyone in the whole 12 man team has anything to counter ECM.

View PostKhobai, on 09 June 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:


That was the whole point. And no it didnt impair teamwork. It encouraged people to stay with their team and NOT get isolated. It punished you for going off on your own and being isolated. Thats exactly how it should be.


The point I was making was that ECM jamming IFF made it impossible to tell if a teammate was underattack and needed help if you couldn't see them. Thus, it made it impossible for your team to react as a team (that means using teamwork) against an ECM mech unless you were staying close enough together to see each other. With ECM as it is now, it is much easier to recognize when a mech is under attack by an ECM mech, and then move to help them, because you can see when a teammate is being jammed by ECM.

#27 Metus regem

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 02:39 PM

View PostBrain Cancer, on 08 June 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

That's normal. In modern warfare, you frequently don't even get visual on a target- so if it's IFF is screwed up, you might very well end up shooting down your own people.

Blue on blue in most cases is a brutal, horrible thing and that's why it's so easy to ID friendlies.



Sometimes not even... When I was over seas, I heard from higher ranking officers that served during the Gulf war, when our own Gunships opened up on Bradly's at night... it was messy... Hell I had a buddy in Afghanistan serving with Canadian forces when they got strafed by an A-10, he was one of the lucky ones that didn't get a 30mm DU *****.... Sometimes getting an ID on friendlies isn't that easy...

#28 Mystere

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 03:33 PM

View PostRoadblockXL, on 09 June 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Why would it be disruptive? If the whole team is standing together, someone just has to say "shoot the ECM mech" and it's dead. That's even assuming no body out of everyone in the whole 12 man team has anything to counter ECM.


In the PUG queue, if people cannot tell between friend and foe in the absence of the Dorito, who are they going to shoot? Heck, many players seem to have a hard time shooting the squirrel with a giant red Dorito on it. Do you actually expect these same players to magically be able to tell the squirrel from their own lights? What if the enemy ECM carrier was not a light?

I myself envision panic in such situations.

As for players having counters to ECM, again in the PUG queue, how many actually do that? I see so many players too cheap to bring BAP, AMS, or any other counters or support equipment.

Edited by Mystere, 09 June 2017 - 03:35 PM.


#29 Tincan Nightmare

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 04:36 PM

Just for reference, the description of C3 from Techmanual pg. 209

Introduced: 3050 (Draconis Combine)
The Command/Control/Communications (C3) system is easily
among the Inner Sphere’s most potent recent inventions. It is also
one of the most original, considering that it emerged not as the
result of a Star League tech recovery, but as a new application of
technologies. As much a revolution in battlefield technology as one
of combat philosophy for its creators in the Draconis Combine, the
system is essentially an elaborate tight-beam communications suite,
designed to link the sensors and targeting systems of up to a full lance
of friendly units in a single, closed network. The C3 system enables
those within its network to draw targeting data from one another and
coordinate fire with amazing ease. As long as effective weapon ranges
and lines of fire permit, a member of a C3 network can essentially strike
at a target with the same accuracy as the nearest friendly network
member. Moreover, units that mount a C3 master computer—with the
other network members using slave nodes—can use the computer’s
coordination as an improvised TAG system.
The system, of course, has its limits. Only units in the same network—
generally a single lance, though creative deployment of multiple
master computers per unit may allow for networks as large as a
company—may share targeting data in this fashion. Friendly units with
systems outside the network cannot simply “tap in” at will. Further, the
network signals and data streams are susceptible to jamming by enemy
ECMs. Worst of all, the hierarchical nature of the system means that the
loss of the master computer to destruction or ECM interference crashes
the entire network, leaving its surviving units to fend for themselves.
Sad to say, the biggest obstacle to optimum use of the C3 system is
a matter of ego more than technology. Ironically produced by a realm
with a strong sense of personal honor and a warrior’s code, the concept
of a communal targeting and communications network is often lost
on the warriors of the DCMS. Indeed, despite efforts to force a more
widespread distribution of the technology, this mentality has apparently
kept an otherwise powerful system virtually marginalized on the
battlefield, even as other factions adopt similar systems of their own.

And here's the rules from Total Warfare pg. 131

C3 COMPUTER (MASTER/SLAVE)
The C3 computer system can link up to twelve ’Mechs
or vehicles together—utilizing a series of C3 Master and
C3 Slaves—in a communications network that will share
targeting information.
To make an attack using a C3 computer network, calculate
the to-hit number using the range to the target from the
networked unit nearest the target with line of sight. Use the
firing unit’s modifiers for movement, terrain effects, minimum
range and so on. A weapon attack using a C3 network must
conform to standard LOS restrictions and cannot fire beyond
its maximum range, though a well-placed lancemate may
allow the firing unit to use his weapon’s short-range to-hit
number at long range.
The C3 network itself has no maximum range, but only units
actually on the playing area can benefit from the network, and
the C3 Master (or C3 Masters if using a company-sized network)
must be on the playing area.
TAG: The C3 Master (but not the C3 Slaves) exactly duplicates
the function of target acquisition gear (see TAG; p. 142).
LRM Indirect Fire: C3-equipped units spotting targets for
or launching an LRM indirect fire attack use the LRM Indirect
Fire rules (see p. 111), and gain no benefit from a C3 network.
Minimum Ranges: Minimum range is always determined
from the attacking unit to the target.
Variable Damage Weapons: The range, to determine
the Damage Value of a Variable Damage Weapon, is always
determined from the attacking unit to the target.
Stealth Armor: Armor that inflicts range modifiers against
attacking units does not confuse a C3 network. While such
additional range modifiers apply to the nearest attacking
unit, they do not apply to any other units using the network
to attack. However, some such systems (notably the Stealth
Armor System, p. 142) include their own ECM system; in this
case, an attacking unit must be outside the effective range of
the ECM mounted on the target unit, or the attacker gets cut
off from the network.

And this is from Techmanual pg.39 for how Mech sensors, sharing info, and targeting work in TT.

SENSORS AND TARGETING SYSTEMS
In its entirety, a BattleMech’s targeting and tracking (T&T)
system includes a sophisticated set of sensors and computers
to process data. These systems are getting ever more sophisticated
as technology is recovered and expanded…a fact that
might explain the Blakists’ recent interest in targeting electronics
manufacturers throughout the Inner Sphere.
Thermal imaging, light amplification, radar and magnetic
anomaly sensors are all among the primary sensors used by
BattleMechs, supplemented by seismic sensors, motion detectors,
chemical analyzers and a multitude of others. Despite
this broad range of sensor types, MechWarriors are not deluged
with raw data. Sophisticated computers streamline,
interpret and prioritize this information, so that by the time
the warrior gets the info, it appears as simple visual cues on
the usual cockpit displays or the warrior’s own neurohelmet
heads-up display (HUD).
The powers of a BattleMech’s sensory processors stand
out most strongly in their ability to recognize other units and
classify them by type and as friend or foe. Any T&T suite today
can inform a MechWarrior of the type of unit it detects, and
can even speculate on what variant it is, and the system is surprisingly
intuitive. Sometimes, this can present an interesting
effect, such as the famous example of the Inner Sphere naming
of the Clan Timber Wolf OmniMech. Upon an Inner Sphere
BattleMech’s first encounter with that ’Mech—which looked
like a cross between the familiar Marauder and Catapult designs,
the name “Mad Cat” was born. The ability to tell friend
from foe—another key ability of the T&T suite—eases the
burden of target identification for MechWarriors in the heat
of battle, particularly under poor visibility conditions.
BattleMechs are also not islands unto themselves. They can
share sensor data to some extent, allowing greater sensory
performance than a single ’Mech can achieve. The specialized
equipment of a C3 system takes this to new heights with direct
battlefield applications, but all BattleMechs can at least
receive basic sensory data from a unit mate.
And that data is recorded. BattleMechs have capable “black
box” systems, the so-called battleROM that stores hundreds
of hours of all sensor data from a ’Mech, from its internal and
external sensors and communications. The armored battleROM
recorder is located in the cockpit and will survive virtually
any catastrophe, from an ammo explosion to a failed
orbital drop.

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#30 LordNothing

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 05:03 PM

sensors were broke from the get go. here is the evidence:

light queue dead. people running lights are using them offensively, as backstabbers, snipers, even lerm boats. you dont ever see dedicated scout builds. the demand for light mech packs is low because of this.

scouting is pointless. free target sharing negates the need for scouting.

info war equipment sucks. equipping a tag pays out less that equipping a medium laser in the same hardpoint. narc is too heavy and ammo hungry to use on a light mech, its effectiveness vs cost is terrible and is dependant on team loadout.

scouting, the mode where you are supposed to scout, is in fact midget skirmish.

no passive radar. passive radar would multiply the effectiveness of scouting by making mechs hard to detect, requiring scouts to actively search for them.

scoring still encourages shooting the enemy. scouting pays little. when a scout run can get the score of an assault mech without shooting anyone, it will be fixed.

#31 Willard Phule

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 05:08 PM

View PostStonekeg, on 09 June 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

Hey Willard Phule,

That's an interesting idea. I haven't processed it fully so I don't have anything to add on the subject, but that was a very well written post. A lot of info, and very digestible. Just wanted to give you a shout out for that.


Thanks. Doesn't happen often. LOL





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