57 replies to this topic

[Ced Riggs]

Vellron2005, on 12 June 2017 - 04:00 AM, said:

I just know one thing..

This whole instability issue was handled badly by PGI.. they basically told us "you must have a bad router, because the game code is perfect, and never crashes"..

Kinda not cool..

Please point out where PGI insinuated "you have a bad router". You keep repeating this, without source, to the point where I am afraid you may actually believe that is what they said. Which they did not, lest you received a different message on private channels.

[Dee Eight]

Ced Riggs, on 12 June 2017 - 05:25 AM, said:

Please point out where PGI insinuated "you have a bad router". You keep repeating this, without source, to the point where I am afraid you may actually believe that is what they said. Which they did not, lest you received a different message on private channels.

As I recall, reposting exactly the contents of a PGI email to you violates the CoC, so folks will summarize what was told to them when writing about it. Convenient how PGI writes the rules. You're never allowed to actually reveal exactly what they inform you has been done about a problem/issue you reported, including if it happened to yourself.

[Ced Riggs]

Dee Eight, on 12 June 2017 - 06:19 AM, said:

As I recall, reposting exactly the contents of a PGI email to you violates the CoC, so folks will summarize what was told to them when writing about it.

Vellron has not suggested that he was told via mail that he had a bad router. This claim, as of now, comes from thin air. Until clarified, I refuse to take that statement at face value. If Vellron would clarify that he has received such a statement via support mail, without stating the contents, fine. At the moment, it looks like a made-up statement.

[PhoenixFire55]

It is never their fault. Blame IGP.

Oh wait ...

[PhoenixFire55]

Paigan, on 12 June 2017 - 04:11 AM, said:

It's not the parking deck's fault that you are stuck in traffic 100 miles away from it.

And if you only get stuck in traffic when going to that one particular parking lot? ...

Part of a good service is building a quality access to said service. Nobody would build a mall with a 10k parking lot when the only road leading to it is a 5m wide two way mountain serpentine. Nobody but PGI it seems.

Deny it all you want, facts remain same ... lots of people from all over the world report the same issue, while saying that they have no issues with any other games. Its PGI either way, fail game code or cheapskate backwater server or low ISP priory because of being cheapskate (yes, I'll use cheapskate everywhere because I can).

But of course it is always easier to blame IGP level 3 outrage.
So ... yeah ... carry on.

[Paigan]

PhoenixFire55, on 13 June 2017 - 01:23 AM, said:

And if you only get stuck in traffic when going to that one particular parking lot? ...
[...]

Paigan, on 12 June 2017 - 04:11 AM, said:

My god, how can this be so hard to understand?

Imagine PGI was a mall that you want to visit.
You get stuck in traffic on the way and you insult PGI because you are stuck in traffic 100 miles from your actual destination.
PGI answers "our parking deck is perfectly functional, no problems here."

It's not the parking deck's fault that you are stuck in traffic 100 miles away from it.
As much as you want to blame it on PGI, they can't be responsible for traffic problems along the way.
They are NOT saying "your car must be trash" they are NOT saying "the city you live in must suck". All they are saying is, that their parking deck is not the problem.

Also see:

Ced Riggs, on 13 June 2017 - 01:55 AM, said:

The trouble with ignorance is, that it self perpetuates.

The park is fine. The area the park is in is fine. The highway is being rained on. You are wet at the park because it rains on the highway. Look up. There is multiple posts, and even pictures, explaining this. I am running out of crayons here.

I don't know how to fix a car. I take it to the shop, because I lack the skills to determine what and how is broken. When the shop provides me with an explanation, I listen - and ask another source for confirmation. I don't tell the mechanic he is wrong, the car doesn't need the brakes changed, it's his fault for not making them work. Because I accept when my knowledge is limited and rely on others to independently verify the statements made.

You, obviously and without insult intended, no next to nothing about IT. Why don't you ask someone who does, rather than spouting this nonsense?

I perceive that as the root cause for almost any problem we have as a civilisation:
People who don't have any idea about a complex system but persistently argue with highly nonsensical statements.

Why are you people so?
Why can't you just open google and research a little before vomitting out nonsense?
Why is that?
People like that wil be the doom of our species.

Edited by Paigan, 13 June 2017 - 02:06 AM.

[UnofficialOperator]

Started to teleport again on 1 game at NA servers.

2nd game on NA servers, 6 guys dc before game starts. Lag monster is starting again

[Ced Riggs]

PhoenixFire55, on 13 June 2017 - 01:23 AM, said:

Part of a good service is building a quality access to said service. Nobody would build a mall with a 10k parking lot when the only road leading to it is a 5m wide two way mountain serpentine. Nobody but PGI it seems.

I am sorry, but that's garbage in shape of letters.

1,) The MWO servers haven't had issues like this for quite some time. The current issues are abnormal.
2,) Level 3 Communications is not a 5m wide serpentine, but a household name of networking. Does not make them exempt from outages, but is not a backwater server.
3,) If you had another service from that same datacenter, you would experience similar issues. You don't. So "only PGI" is nonsense, because you lack reference data.
4,) Insinuating that no one but PGI has server issues is outright dumb. Do you want to talk about Warframe's major issues some time back, or how Skyforge's login servers crashed and burnt, how ArcheAge got so bogged down people had queues of over 2000 people waiting to get in, how Armored Warfare constantly dropped packages, etc. pp.? No you don't. Because you might not play those games or even know they exist.

Let me repeat this, so you don't overlook it: You don't even know what you don't know. You are, not necessarily by own fault, ignorant about the subject matter. So far, that is nothing wrong on your part. But now, despite being faced with the attempt to eleviate your ignorance, you insist on perpetuating your uninformed, uneducated opinion. Not because you have arguments, or reason to, but because you rather hold on to what you perceive as right, what fits your view of the world, and you deliberately, and willfully ignore facts presented to you for review, with sources you could check yourself.

That is how bad politicians get elected. FFS.

[PhoenixFire55]

Ced Riggs, on 13 June 2017 - 02:22 AM, said:

Let me repeat this, so you don't overlook it: You don't even know what you don't know. You are, not necessarily by own fault, ignorant about the subject matter. So far, that is nothing wrong on your part. But now, despite being faced with the attempt to eleviate your ignorance, you insist on perpetuating your uninformed, uneducated opinion. Not because you have arguments, or reason to, but because you rather hold on to what you perceive as right, what fits your view of the world, and you deliberately, and willfully ignore facts presented to you for review, with sources you could check yourself.

Whatever you say enlightened one. This really isn't worth arguing over. At the end of the day, its me the uneducated plebs that will decide to not play this game that is Fine^TM, in favor of another game that might not be Fine^TM but doesn't have rubberbanding every second match. Frankly, I don't give a damn whos fault it is that your game isn't working, you either make it work or you lose players, its as simple as that. Their reply gives you a perfect idea about how much they care. All is Fine^TM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Paigan, on 13 June 2017 - 02:05 AM, said:

Why are you people so?
Why can't you just open google and research a little before vomitting out nonsense?
Why is that?
People like that wil be the doom of our species.

Nothing but ignorant assumptions and lame attempts at insulting people coming from someone who is in fact quite clueless himself in regards of what he talks about. But then again, you can hardly expect anything more from a person who's most reliable source of knowledge is google. Sorry if I don't shed a tear over the doom of your species.

[Ced Riggs]

PhoenixFire55, on 13 June 2017 - 03:43 AM, said:

Frankly, I don't give a damn whos fault it is that your game isn't working.
Their reply gives you a perfect idea about how much they care. All is Fine^TM.
But then again, you can hardly expect anything more from a person who's most reliable source of knowledge is google.

If you don't care who's fault it is, and you prefer to play a different game while this is going on, more power to you. But you can't go around blaming PGI in the same breath. You either don't care and play something else, or you do care and blame PGI. If you do the latter, which you did, you're incorrect. You put your incorrect opinion out there, and it was challenged. Your response to that challenge is moping around and repeating your incorrect opinion.

As for "most reliable source of knowledge" being "google", no. That's not the most reliable source of knowledge applied here. It is the source of knowledge offered to you, who is a layman. That is not meant to deride you or look down on you, but you won't learn professional IT skills over the course of a few forum posts, just like I can't learn how to fix a busted engine in a few forum posts. To translate such vocational skills, it is simplified and presented to you in a digestable manner. Additionally, the Level 3 Communications outage map is a service provided by Level 3, and not Google.

Furthermore, PGI did what they could. They checked their servers, their data centers, their immediate areas of influence, and keep monitoring the situation. They informed the public that they acknowledge the issue, and not that everything is fine. They also offered a statement of where they assume the issues lies ("between us and you, further down the line"). They also offered advice on how a user could progress on their end, offered continued monitoring in case they can help, and they also stated that in the event of non-resolution on the client's end, their support is ready and waiting for more detailed assistance.

What more do you want them to do? What more do you think they can do?

If you ignore the rest of this post, please respond to these two questions.

[PhoenixFire55]

Ced Riggs, on 13 June 2017 - 04:05 AM, said:

If you don't care who's fault it is, and you prefer to play a different game while this is going on, more power to you. But you can't go around blaming PGI in the same breath. You either don't care and play something else, or you do care and blame PGI. If you do the latter, which you did, you're incorrect. You put your incorrect opinion out there, and it was challenged. Your response to that challenge is moping around and repeating your incorrect opinion.

Furthermore, PGI did what they could. They checked their servers, their data centers, their immediate areas of influence, and keep monitoring the situation. They informed the public that they acknowledge the issue, and not that everything is fine. They also offered a statement of where they assume the issues lies ("between us and you, further down the line"). They also offered advice on how a user could progress on their end, offered continued monitoring in case they can help, and they also stated that in the event of non-resolution on the client's end, their support is ready and waiting for more detailed assistance.

What more do you want them to do? What more do you think they can do?

If you ignore the rest of this post, please respond to these two questions.

LOL ... they always do what they can. Somehow that always ends up being nothing.

I mean, look, we've both lived long enough to know how customer service works at times. "Your call is very important to us, we will do everything in our power to yadda yadda yadda". Then nothing happens. Its not like this is the first time it happened, and its not like there is any different issue that is causing the problem in the first place. Same old backwater cheapskate servers ...

People aren't complaining just because they can't play MWO without these issues, they are complaining because they can play everything else just fine. It means that the problem is either entirely PGI's fault, or it is somewhere directly next to their servers, i.e. inside their supposed area of influence.

You are asking me what they can do? ... Well, for starters they can start actively tracing said issues to figure out where they are arising. Next they can make a phonecall to whoever is responsible for said segment of network and ask them to "fix their sh!t". If the offending party doesn't "fix its sh!t" then PGI can and in all honesty should migrate their servers to a different place in order to circumvent these issues and provide the best possible quality gameplay for everyone.

But the problem is ... in order to do all that they actually need to do something. And doing things is so tiring. Its much easier to make one forum post explaining how life sux and how hard are they trying. And they actually need to care about the quality of their product. But please, lets not pretend that they do.

There is a reason people put trademark into Minimally Viable Product^TM.

Oh, and they did acknowledge the fact that people are having issues, nothing more. Not that its their responsibility, nor that they actually are going to fix it or even try to fix it. If they somehow do manage to fix it tho, it'll be going over their heads, accomplishing a true herculean task, being ever so altruistic and heroic in their endless strife to improve all possible aspects of gameplay for each and every player that they will shed their last drop of blood but fix the said issue even when they weren't even responsible for it in the first place ... that was indeed made pretty clear.

Sorry, but I only smell fish, tons and tons of rotten fish.

[Ced Riggs]

PhoenixFire55, on 13 June 2017 - 04:29 AM, said:

LOL ... they always do what they can. Somehow that always ends up being nothing.

I mean, look, we've both lived long enough to know how customer service works at times. "Your call is very important to us, we will do everything in our power to yadda yadda yadda". Then nothing happens. Its not like this is the first time it happened, and its not like there is any different issue that is causing the problem in the first place. Same old backwater cheapskate servers ...

Sorry, but I only smell fish, tons and tons of rotten fish.

Well, let me stay amicable, because I understand the frustration quite well. When I play on NA, I am affected all the same.

Lemme talk about something I am clear to talk about because the NDA ran out.

I worked for the German government, as on-site junior admin of a Federal Ministry. This ministry coordinated efforts spanning the country, and as the landscape in Germany is, operates from two cities, Berlin and Bonn. These cities are across the country, one in the West, one in the East. To connect these two sites, the government established the information exchange Berlin/Bonn, IVBB for short (obv. a German abbreviation, but, you get it).

During an exercise named "state-spanning crisis exercise", (LÜKEX), where the actions and abilities of ministries working in conjunction to combat the crisis at hand (this one was for a european wide pandemic), the IVBB provided the connections upon which the two sites interacted, and where outside nodes were patched into the network. The network is also secured, etc., yadda-yadda. We, the on-site IT staff, only provided minor assistance, but we still monitored networking from our locations.

During this exercise, a major hub of the IVBB broke down. We, the on-site staff, have no access to those hubs, as the IVBB is its own department. It is beholden to all ministries, and not to a single one. We, the on-site staff, had to figure out why something was broken, slow, or outright unavailable. So we performed monitoring, and identified that our nodes were performing correctly. Both our site at Bonn and Berlin was operating at full capacity. Our connections to the internet were fine. Our ISPs confirmed this from their respective end points. So we went up the trail, and identified that it had to be the IVBB.

We had state secretaries, bosses, deparment heads, and staffers drop on us, lean in, and complain, "fix the damn thing", and so on. But it was out of our hands. We informed the public about the issues (acknowledgement), contacted the IVBB (escalation) and intensified monitoring on our end in case we could do anything to assist (readiness). Our clients kept complaining, but the ball was in the IVBB's court. And the hardware used in our ministry was brand-spanking new. Less than a year old. Huge project. Massive potential for unexpected increase in load. Redundant. We poured a lot of time and resources into our sites.

But, with the IVBB breaking down, there was nothing we could do further than acknowledge, escalate and be ready for when we could help. A day later, the IVBB had their issues fixed, and we were back in the game. I'd argue that government operations, especially during a crisis exercise, is a bit more serious than an obscure stompy robbits game. Yet, we faced a similar situation. A service outside of our reach was failing, and we had little course of affecting it. We poured in what we could, and we informed our clients to the best of our abilities.

What could we have done more? What should we have done?

PGI stated that they monitored and checked what they could. This is an open statement. They more than likely called who was providing their connection. They more than likely asked for the issues to be checked out. But, what do you think happens if an industry giant like Level 3 Communications is asked by a Canadian old nerd funtime simulator to "fix their sh!t"? That's right. "We're looking into it." - what could PGI then forward to us? "We looked into it and checked what we could. We continue to monitor the situation."

Any assumption of negligence and laziness is filling a gap of information absence. There is no information PGI could forward. And now it's up to you, the customer, to accept the current state, wait for resolution, and either bear with it or play something else in the interrim. But blaming PGI, and complaining about what evil/lazy people they are isn't helping you, them, or the situation.

Makes sense?

[TKSax]

Normally I would be all over PGI about this, but like Ced This is not a PGI issue, I proved this last week when I used a VPN to improve my ping and stop any rubber banding issues (which was happening for 2 months), because there was a problem between an AT&T NJ hub and another provider that were jumping off in NJ. I have had 0 problems since this reared its head last friday, in fact I am not using the VPN anymore and my ping is back to where it was, so ATT and I assume Level 3 have at least fix thier issue in NJ. Here is my tracert to MWOMercs for that past 2 month up until last Saturday the 10th
( I took out the stuff that us close to my house)

7 26 ms 22 ms 23 ms 12.83.103.13
8 32 ms 32 ms 30 ms 12.123.138.178
9 31 ms 34 ms 30 ms 12.122.2.190
10 35 ms 34 ms 34 ms gar18.wswdc.ip.att.net [12.122.113.41
11 * * * Request timed out.[
12 * * * Request timed out.
13 100 ms 100 ms 104 ms be100-104.nwk-1-a9.nj.us [192.99.146.253]
14 106 ms 101 ms 102 ms be10-1037.bhs-g1-a9.qc.ca [192.99.146.99]
15 102 ms 102 ms 102 ms vl21.bhs-g1-a75.qc.ca [198.27.73.63]
16 103 ms 103 ms 103 ms bhs-g5-a9.qc.ca [178.32.135.194]
17 102 ms 102 ms 102 ms 192.99.109.143

See between hop 10 and hop 13 how the ping jumps, I hit that same ip 192.99.146.253 from other networks and was not having this problem. I contacted ATT a month ago and they told me to they could not do anything about it, even though I sent the several routs showing them it was an issue with them talking to that ip.

Here is my tracert now

7 21 ms 23 ms 25 ms 12.83.103.33
8 30 ms 34 ms 30 ms 12.123.138.178
9 30 ms 34 ms 30 ms 12.122.2.190
10 30 ms 27 ms 27 ms gar18.wswdc.ip.att.net [12.122.113.41]
11 * * * Request timed out.
12 * * * Request timed out.
13 55 ms 55 ms 54 ms be100-104.nwk-1-a9.nj.us [192.99.146.253]
14 * * * Request timed out.
15 * * * Request timed out.
16 58 ms * 56 ms bhs-g5-a9.qc.ca [178.32.135.194]
17 55 ms 58 ms 54 ms 192.99.109.143

Much better between hop 10 and 13, so what ever reared its head on Friday, which had been effecting met for over 2 months was fixed and I had 0 issues with disconnecting, or lag.


I also I used to work for a data center provider, and it is almost impossible for a customer to do more than call the Data Center Provider and open a Ticket, and in a case like this where it is a national internet backbone with the problem their hands are tied, trust me I have been through it several times before with the data center company I worked for. Also they just can't pick up and move every thing, there is a lot of work it would take to do that. In fact we had customers who literally hated my old datacenter company but would not move because of the amount of trouble and cost it would have been to go to a different datacenter company.

Edited by TKSax, 13 June 2017 - 04:54 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Ced Riggs, on 13 June 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

Makes sense?

Yep, you've identified the place where the problem occured, informed both them and the guys pressing down on you and the issue was solved on the next day. What do we see here instead? ... "Your call is very important to us ... blah blah blah". Current issue might be more difficult to pinpoint since the network in question is much wider and the issue itself doesn't arise for everyone, nor it is always present, however nobody is asking them to fix the damn thing overnight. This is going on since forever, yet nothing is being done except for empty promises and reasurances. I.e. it is PGI's fault for failing to identify the problem, PGI's fault for failing to notify people responsible for other segments of the network, and PGI's fault for not pressing the necessary buttons in order to either fix or get rid of the problem entirely.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 13 June 2017 - 05:00 AM.

[UnofficialOperator]

Ced Riggs, on 13 June 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

TKSax, on 13 June 2017 - 04:51 AM, said:

I applaud you two for the science but really why bother replying to these tin foil hatters?

More pew pew, less qq I say.

[Gwahlur]

PhoenixFire55, on 13 June 2017 - 03:43 AM, said:

At the end of the day, its me the uneducated plebs that will decide to not play this game that is Fine^TM, in favor of another game that might not be Fine^TM

That means you'll be leaving the forum as well, right?

[Dee Eight]

Paigan, on 13 June 2017 - 02:05 AM, said:

Why are you people so?
Why can't you just open google and research a little before vomitting out nonsense?
Why is that?
People like that wil be the doom of our species.

I sell bicycles and bike parts. However there are hundreds of bike brands, times dozens of models....every year.... and yet I still get people messaging me to ask If item A will fit their brand/model B from C years ago. How should I know exactly ? Why is it my responsibility when I've given the industry standard info describing the item, to know if it will fit something that I don't have the ability to magically measure/examine myself.

Some people are just too lazy...too entitled...or outright too stupid to educate themselves before they go looking for things to purchase, to work with something they already own...what actual specifications they need the new item to match to replace the old item.

I used bicycles as an example but it applies equally well to automobiles or computers. Do you have any idea how many different pin standards have been used in the past twenty years for computer CPUs, motherboards, expansion card slots, memory modules, etc ? I just upgraded my RAM memory and my graphics card. I actually looked up the specs for my computer ahead of time, wrote down what I needed (DDR3-1600mhz ram modules of 4 gig or more and PCI Express with more than half a gig respectively) and then drove my *** over to the best buy, walked to the appropriate aisle, and bought the appropriate components. Without needing my hand held or to ask a sales person for assistance. When I needed new summer and winter tires for my car...I open the manual for my car and read the specs the manufacturer listed for replacement sizes...then went online to compare prices at various stores for those sizes of tires I needed.

I need to get T-shirts made to wear (or large stickers to slap onto my shirt/jacket) for when I go into many stores that say "If I'm in here, I know what I'm looking for already and am capable of speaking up if I require assistance".

Edited by Dee Eight, 13 June 2017 - 09:52 AM.