126 replies to this topic

[Vordhosbn11]

Bush Hopper, on 12 June 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

Generalization for the win.

A locust or commando have a rather easy time. Now try that with a 35t vs a Battlemaster specced into mobility. And please, no T4-5 potato but one of the guys we have to play in the upper tiers. Then come back and tell us how it ended.

Thanks in advance

Smug post is smug

I could say you're generalizing as well - what if my 35t light is outfit with C-SPL and the Assault is using IS PPC's and IS LRMs? 35t for the win!!! I think you're generalizing too much

Also, I LOVE that you reference tier, insinuating that because I'm T4 I can just run circles around any 'ol assault in my sesspool potatoe QP que - BUT if I was with the huge swinging d1cks in tier 1, I would be a little potato asking for lights to get nerfed on the forums. The funny thing about these MWO-account-thingys is that you can have more than one. Tier doesn't invalidate (or validate) anything. And for what it's worth, I think the scale of light mechs in this game is just fine the way it is. The last thing this game needs is nerfs to light mechs.

Thanks in advance.

Edited by Vordhosbn11, 12 June 2017 - 01:59 PM.

[Gwahlur]

All my lights are too big
(Firestarter, Panthers, Wolfhound)

[Grus]

Bush Hopper, on 12 June 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

They got their armour quirks after the resizing. So it is safe to assume that they should compensate for the huge size. Too bad that they still feel fragile, even after speccing heavily in the survival tree. I peeked up a hill - on the other side was a stationary Atlas which therefore didn't show on seismic. One alpha and my arm was gone and the ST took some severe damage - and I reacted immediately and turned while moving backwards down the slope. So much for agility and thoughness...


Pretty much this. Especially when the class has a hardcounter: streaks. Which is hilarious in itself as a game mechanic

Those people who still complain or just say lights are fine should ask themselves following questions:
1. Why is the light mech queue so short outside of events if lights are good or even op?
2. What role have lights which cannot be performed or even better performed by a fast medium...or the Linebacker?
3. You can do fine in a light mech? I can do that as well. Now as yourself, though: how much effort do you have to put in reaching that score compared to a medium/heavy/assault?

Coming from the guy who cannot cope with the weakest mech class in game and wants it nerfed even more...now, that is comedy gold

all of these are beside the point, the point is a 25 ton mech mech comes running at a mech at 160kph and dive face first into his crotch and it's only concern is how much paint will he lose.. If a light pilot is just bobbing in and out of combat then he dosnt have to worry about bumping into someone and falling down now does he?...

Light mech's are nasty, I love being in them when I hear a gauss hit my mech, watch the armor flash, and can feel the rage of the poor victim of my pew pew.. legg him and leave him for the bigger guns.

Edit cellphone autocorrect*

Edited by Grus, 12 June 2017 - 02:29 PM.

[Spr1ggan]

Vordhosbn11, on 12 June 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

Dude what are you talking about? Saying "the issue might not be the mech" like assaults have some huge advantage over lights.

Assaults make the easiest targets for light mechs hands down. I salivate in my locust when I see a Dire or king crab waddling about all by himself - it's literally the easiest solo kill/KMDD you will find. I'd say the in light vs assault, the light mech has a substantial advantage almost every time when the fight is up close and not ranged, maybe except for the Urbanmech

They do have a huge advantage, most assault pilots outside of comp are complete potato though. I've seen Kaffe kill/cripple a whole light wolfpack with his Dire.

[Grus]

Jay Leon Hart, on 12 June 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

Please, record yourself brawling in a Light 'mech, I'd love to see it.
Good Light 'mech pilots don't brawl. They get in, deliver a volley or two and get out.


Then accept that your build choices have consequences, just like running a really hot build is going to suffer vs Gauss or Flamers.

guess you haven't been on the receiving end of our light lance in FP, we hunt, we brawl, and we make sure if we die We take out a heavy or better per one of ours. So yeah, if you're decent you can brawl in a light.

[Y E O N N E]

Grus, on 12 June 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

all of these are beside the point, the point is a 25 ton mech mech comes running at a mech at 160kph and dive face first into his crotch and it's only concern is how much paint will he lose.. If a light pilot is just bobbing in and out of combat then he dosnt have to worry about bumping into someone and falling down now does he?...

This doesn't happen against competent players.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Grus, on 12 June 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

guess you haven't been on the receiving end of our light lance in FP, we hunt, we brawl, and we make sure if we die We take out a heavy or better per one of ours. So yeah, if you're decent you can brawl in a light.

Now, a Lance of Lights is an entirely different beast. Still, they have to actually get in range, so vs equally skilled pilots, they're half dead before they can attack.

[Kiiyor]

Grus, on 12 June 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

wouldnt be if you become a better pilot, or adapt, you know, what every other pilot does when the meta change..

Light mech's arnt irrelevant when the fall mechanic was in place, you just had to be a better pilot, and a lot of you refuse to get better to use that mech.

That's not remotely true.

The only saving grace of knockdowns was that the light typically knocked down whatever they ran into also, so both pilots were on even footing when trying to get back up.

The only reason a light ever survived being knocked down was that the hitboxes of mechs getting back up were an abomination - most hits didn't register, on top of already wonky pre-HSR hitreg. It's part of the reason knockdowns were removed.

Damage was also far, far lower back then. The most terrifying weapon for a light was an AC20, because it could theoretically shear off an already damaged leg in one go. Now you have pinpoint clan laser vomit that can one shot a light, dual gauss AND a PPC or two that can one shot a light, a resurgence of dual AC20 mechs that can one shot a light, lights with a horror collection of SPLs that can one shot a light...

I'm going to assume also that you were never a victim of Jenner bowling. People complain now about their assaults being ripped apart by a light - what will they do if they're perma knocked down by one? Permanent stunlock is a crap mechanic in any game.

[FupDup]

As an FYI, the Spider got its size dramatically inflated with the rescale. If you're having troubles with it now, you're out of excuses. It's not small anymore.

[EmeraldSongbird]

As a light pilot (love my Mist Lynx) I can say that every issue being caused is largely due to wonky hitreg. I consistently live through way more than I should, and fighting against other lights, namely other Mist Lynx, Commandos, and Locusts, they live through way more than they should. Firestarters, Wolfhounds, Arctic Cheetahs; the hit reg on these mechs still has some trouble but nothing compares to the issues with the aforementioned three.

I could get over the hitreg issue to an extent, but there is also the issue of massive armor quirks on arms, legs, etc. to "balance" them, because low profile and high speed isn't enough apparently. These two things together help to make lights nonsensically overpowered in the hands of a competent pilot.

Resizing seems silly at this point, because they tried that before. What would balance this now? What could stop these evil lights?

I dunno, let's go back to OB...

How about knockdown when these tiny mechs charge full speed into your beefy legs and walls? They always do that when they circle you.

REMEMBER WHEN KNOCKDOWN WAS AN IDEA?

oh sorry not an idea...

BUT AN ACTUAL CODED MECHANIC!?

Edited by EmeraldSongbird, 12 June 2017 - 06:06 PM.

[Cementi]

A bit late to the party on this thread but thanks OP for the laugh. Always nice to burst out laughing in the lunch room and know that literally no one around you will have any clue as to why your laughing even if you explained it.

Hilarious that you think that a class of mech that is regularly less than 10% of the que needs a nerf.

[UnofficialOperator]

If you check the queue, lights are apparently so OP that everyone refuses to use them

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 12 June 2017 - 08:59 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Vordhosbn11, on 12 June 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

Smug post is smug

I could say you're generalizing as well - what if my 35t light is outfit with C-SPL and the Assault is using IS PPC's and IS LRMs? 35t for the win!!! I think you're generalizing too much

Also, I LOVE that you reference tier, insinuating that because I'm T4 I can just run circles around any 'ol assault in my sesspool potatoe QP que - BUT if I was with the huge swinging d1cks in tier 1, I would be a little potato asking for lights to get nerfed on the forums. The funny thing about these MWO-account-thingys is that you can have more than one. Tier doesn't invalidate (or validate) anything. And for what it's worth, I think the scale of light mechs in this game is just fine the way it is. The last thing this game needs is nerfs to light mechs.

Thanks in advance.

I wasn't generalizing. You make up a special scenario. I haven't seen a mech exclusively armed with IS PPCs for ages and without backup weaponry and that for a good reason. So, please make up a more exotic case as an "argument" to justify your generalization.
As for your account...I doubt that considering your post - and if you have: I find it pathetic that someone needs to do seal clubbing.
As for you implying that I am an elitist, I can tell you there is a huge difference in matches filled with T1-2 players and the ones where the MM fills slots with lower tiers. In the prior case lights get suddenly a great deal more fragile.

[RogoRogo Wolf]

PGI and "scale" are two things that never related this well....
OFC you have to make adjustments to lore because of game and gameplay design necessities (hmmm... well there is not that much of either in this game currently.... but maybe in the future... unlike the past 4 years.... lol) and the last across the board resize (IMHO being more of a code approach bugfix with the positive output of some resizing) has been an improvment... but still.... medium stormcrows towering over heavy and assault mechs.... assaults being smaller than some mediums..... and the mech behavior... well I think if we toned down our egos we could all agree that they are way too agile and twitchy across the model and faction range....

Plus the lack of sense for scaling shows in the "map feel" as well.... years ago some fans dropped the MWO mechs in the CryEngine SDK into a default SDK game map (I think there is still a "SideStrafe" vid on youtube where he talks about that) - the mechs in there looked big and lumbering instantly.... yet in MWOs own maps they feel like FPS-avatars.... despite some small improvements over the years...

But I have a new theory... because Russ B (the best of all possible Studio CEOs) is so busy with MW5 the neglected MWO team can now implement common-sense based game code! So things will be better.. shortly.... (lol)

[Relishcakes]

Athom83, on 12 June 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

Alpha'd a Locust two times with my 60 point alpha SRM22a + AC/20 Cyclops and is didn't go through the armor. They did indeed hit the Locust as I saw the hitboxes on the target information flash and darken a little. It's not the size of the small mechs that are the issue, its the hit registration.

I own a little locust 3S with 2 srm 2's and 2 srm 4's. 9 times out of 10 if i die its because one of the people on my side thought their shot would go past/through me to the target(of which i was peppering) causing me to accept an alpha of unknown quality due to the locusts thin armor. I have never known there to be a problem with hit registration on any mech myself though, even on my raven 4x with its 2 MLAS and 2 machine guns. I'm capable of hitting every target i want every time. Yes I have to compensate for some because of movement and yeah if i dont i will miss BUT at no point have i ever had a shot go through the target or in some way missed for no reason. Maybe I dont know what im looking for, maybe its the speed of your internet causing a very barely noticeable lag?

[Shifty McSwift]

Ruar, on 12 June 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

If the game can't keep up with tiny targets moving at high speed then it would make sense to increase the size some.

Exactly, or decrease speeds on those tiny mechs.

It is a simple but true enough point, if the game can't handle them why are they there?

Of course you will get lag shield abusers claim that you should "git gud" and that they are just good pilots. But when you see these super lights as the last person on a team alive, and yet they can still just run and bullet dodge with 6 people laying fire at them (get registered hits on their screen in cases where there was no damage inflicted etc).

Or when they make stupid moves, but survive due to lagshield and are free to continue doing terrible things that they get away with because of the dicky mechanics. Like charging headlong into 8 enemy mech and living just because nothing can really hit you, that is just bad play rewarded by a faulty mechanic. Of course all it can take is a lock on weapon and those mechs fall apart, but they should never be getting damage registers when it doesn't and vice versa, that is a broken system that needs a fix.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 12 June 2017 - 11:53 PM.

[Dago Red]

Shifty McSwift, on 12 June 2017 - 11:48 PM, said:

Exactly, or decrease speeds on those tiny mechs.

It is a simple but true enough point, if the game can't handle them why are they there?

Of course you will get lag shield abusers claim that you should "git gud" and that they are just good pilots. But when you see these super lights as the last person on a team alive, and yet they can still just run and bullet dodge with 6 people laying fire at them (get registered hits on their screen in cases where there was no damage inflicted etc).

Or when they make stupid moves, but survive due to lagshield and are free to continue doing terrible things that they get away with because of the dicky mechanics.

I haven't seen consistent action like that in a LONG time. And when it does kick in it seems like salvo's disappear even on larger targets at times.

Mind you there was a point when the hit reg was way worse that you might have had some point but even back then superior armor and weaponry usually won out piloting skill being anywhere near even.

[Shifty McSwift]

Dago Red, on 12 June 2017 - 11:53 PM, said:

I haven't seen consistent action like that in a LONG time. And when it does kick in it seems like salvo's disappear even on larger targets at times.

Mind you there was a point when the hit reg was way worse that you might have had some point but even back then superior armor and weaponry usually won out piloting skill being anywhere near even.

It is circumstantial to the levels that it applies, if everyone is on the same server with no lag and some 20 ping, the effect is almost negligible, any kind of "lag shield" effect in this kind of case would be minimal, but still potentially save a light some damage.

Once you add in jumpy servers, ping rates that vary to global levels from 1 - 350 is pretty standard and the different ways that weapons function, it gets pretty messy for these super small super lights, much more so than for most other classes, who might notice it, but to much less of a degree than they do with these super lights.

It does go both ways, light can be chopped to pieces before even noticing they are taking fire due to ping lag and the like, so the safe bet is just to constantly run at 160 kph and try to hit whatever you can on the way, which is silly.

My point though is just to agree with the idea, that if these mechs are only considered "good" (by the few who do), because they can abuse mechanics like this, it is the potential to abuse mechanics that makes them good, not the mechs.

[Dago Red]

Lag can definitely play its part but the aiming skill of the opponent tends to matter far more.

The difference between piloting a locust against someone with really solid aim and wobbly armed potato that splashes damage all over the countryside is night and day lag or no lag. (The difference is you die stupid fast.)

Not that I claim to be a light specialist. I mostly drive urbies in that weight class and only haul out the locust when my team needs the weight badly or I'm especially jacked up on redbull and need to get a nice adrenaline dump going.

[Shifty McSwift]

Dago Red, on 13 June 2017 - 12:18 AM, said:

Lag can definitely play its part but the aiming skill of the opponent tends to matter far more.

The difference between piloting a locust against someone with really solid aim and wobbly armed potato that splashes damage all over the countryside is night and day lag or no lag. (The difference is you die stupid fast.)

Not that I claim to be a light specialist. I mostly drive urbies in that weight class and only haul out the locust when my team needs the weight badly or I'm especially jacked up on redbull and need to get a nice adrenaline dump going.

Well in practice and theory, moving at such high speeds would make you very difficult to hit particularly considering we are restricted by our torso and arm movement speeds, unfortunately also moving that fast and colliding with something that reduces your speed from 160 kph to 0 would likely bust up your mech beyond repair and shift the organs of the pilot a few meters.. LoL.

So yeah, pilot skill vs opponent gun skills makes a difference for sure, and there are plenty of skilled light pilots that make me paranoid in play constantly, not even considering the potential for lag, just in how quick they can do everything compared to me. A good light pilot in most cases can kick the crap out of an assault pilot like that, but all it can take is one good/lucky volley from that assault to change that up.

And you can really tell the difference when the damage actually registers and when it doesn't if you are playing a mech whose damage rates you are used to, and when you see larger targets moving just as fast come apart where the super lights do not.