94 replies to this topic

[Leonidas the First]

It has been years since I played the table top version and that was even before the time jump ever occurred. When I saw Civil War announced my mind immediately filled with all of the build possibilities based on my guesses of what the new weapon specs would be. Last night I decided to search for the table top stats for thee new weapons and was suddenly a little worried. In general the advatage of the table top LBX weapons was having interchangeable slug and cluster (higher crit chance) ammo. This capability not available in MWO so we are left only with the increased crit chance does not really balance out the negative of damage spread and reduced range. The LBX 10 we have already had was 1 ton and 1 crit space less than the standard AC/10 (matching the table top rules) giving it the advantage of being able to stuff two them in a side torso.

According to table top cannon other IS LBX weapons are either the same weight and require the same crit spaces or they are heavier and require more spaces. Without the interchangeable ammo these weapons are likely to be considered useless by all but stock/lore players. If MWO modifies these weapon stats, as they have done for other weapons, and reduces tonnage by 1 or .5 and or crit space requirements by 1 or 2, then these weapons might find a consistent role on the battle field and not end up being a huge waste of development time for PGI. If such alterations are made then builds such as 3 LBX 5s in a side torso with a Light or XL engine become possible in chassis such as the MAD-3R or MAL MX-90, or 4 in the side torso of the BNC-3E with a STD engine, which may be interesting for some players.

[El Bandito]

As is, IS LB20X can't even be equipped on mech's arms, even without LAA. Let's hope PGI learns to break TT weight/slot values for better balancing. Reducing weight/slot does not break stock builds anyway.

[Metus regem]

El Bandito, on 12 June 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

As is, IS LB20X can't even be equipped on mech's arms, even without LAA. Let's hope PGI learns to break TT weight/slot values for better balancing. Reducing weight/slot does not break stock builds anyway.

Not just that, something like the LB 2 is going to be useless, it goes from a 7t 1 crit weapon (AC/2) to a 7t 4 crit weapon (LB-2X), that is a growth of 300%.... now in TT it was justifiable due to the dual ammo types, now this is doubly damned by the fact that the IS UAC/2 is only 3 crits, but in MWO it is just going to be trash heap... the LB-5 takes just as many crits as a UAC/5, but the UAC/5 in MWO at least allows for double tap...


I've been saying it for a while, keeping the IS LB's at their TT stats are going to unfairly punish them, as they are paying a crit size tax for an ability that they lack in MWO and PGI is going to need to brake away from TT stats to make them even remotely viable. This problem is perhaps at it's worst when comparing the AC/20, LB-20X and UAC/20.

AC/20
Tons: 14
Crits :10

LB-20X
Tons: 14
Crits: 11

UAC/20
Tons: 15
Crits: 10


Looking at those three, the LB-20 is just trash bin bound before even being modeled, as there is no reason to take it, not when you can get a UAC/20 for 1t and -1 crit... not to mention that the UAC/20 works with the new LFE engines, and that right there will save you the 1t, making the UAC/20 just the better option all the way around.

[pyrocomp]

Well, maybe it's just a good time to remind Russ of his promise

https://twitter.com/...557942381596672

And direct him to the more or less representative thread with many options discussed

https://mwomercs.com...x-pellet-damage

Is there a volunteer that is not yet banned from Russ twitter?

[Felicitatem Parco]

Inner Sphere LBX 20 will only work with massive RiF boost and curtailed spread.

Will not happen. Seriously, I have been saying this for months now. Get hyped over the rest of the civil war tech... Save yourself the trouble.

[Metus regem]

Prosperity Park, on 12 June 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

Inner Sphere LBX 20 will only work with massive RiF boost and curtailed spread.

Will not happen. Seriously, I have been saying this for months now. Get hyped over the rest of the civil war tech... Save yourself the trouble.

I say the best new toys for the IS that are coming are as follows, in no particular order:

ERML
Light PPC
Heavy PPC
Snub-nosed PPC
UAC/10
MRM's
Stealth Armout
Light Ferro Fib
LFE

Everything else is too niche or just not great over all. personally I am really looking forward to HPPC, UAC/10's and LFE's for the few mechs that I have that run Standards.

[Andi Nagasia]

Prosperity Park, on 12 June 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

Inner Sphere LBX 20 will only work with massive RiF boost and curtailed spread.

Will not happen. Seriously, I have been saying this for months now. Get hyped over the rest of the civil war tech... Save yourself the trouble.

even at 0 Spread the LBX20 will still be a weaker AC20,
personally i feel all LBX should follow the LBX10 Formula, -1Ton -1Crit vs IS ACs

[Metus regem]

Andi Nagasia, on 12 June 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

even at 0 Spread the LBX20 will still be a weaker AC20,
personally i feel all LBX should follow the LBX10 Formula, -1Ton -1Crit vs IS ACs

That becomes problematic with the LB-2X and AC/2.... We cannot have a 0 crit weapon system.

Personally I'd be happy with -1t/2t depending on the weapon, for instance the LB-2/5/10X are all -1t, while the LB-20X be -2t, while they all retain the same crit slot requirement of the normal AC systems.

[Escef]

There's still light engines, 3 new PPCs, and the rest of the IS-UACs that all look like they're going to be interesting. At least to me I'm skeptical of the MRMs. And while not excited about the new ER lasers and Streaks, I'll definitely use some of them.

Right now I'm thinking MAD-BH2 with 300 LFE, 3 jets, UAC10, 2xLPPC, and 5xML.

[ChapeL]

My take away thought on this thread so far is that PGI needs to find a way ( any way ) to make ammo switching happen.

[Escef]

ChapeL, on 12 June 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

My take away thought on this thread so far is that PGI needs to find a way ( any way ) to make ammo switching happen.

While that would be nice, AFAIK they aren't even working on it. However, as I've said numerous times, every now and again PGI will pleasantly surprise you.

Edited by Escef, 12 June 2017 - 09:53 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

ChapeL, on 12 June 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

My take away thought on this thread so far is that PGI needs to find a way ( any way ) to make ammo switching happen.

Not needed... Just make the LBX weapons into faster firing weapons. DPS over precision. Makes "Brawling " less of a bad decision.

[Andi Nagasia]

Prosperity Park, on 12 June 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

Not needed... Just make the LBX weapons into faster firing weapons. DPS over precision. Makes "Brawling " less of a bad decision.

this could work for both IS and Clan LBX, still though,
IS-LBX20 should have its crits reduced by 1 because we dont have Crit Splitting in MWO,
and it would really help the weapon in being abit more viable,

[Felicitatem Parco]

Andi Nagasia, on 12 June 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

this could work for both IS and Clan LBX, still though,
IS-LBX20 should have its crits reduced by 1 because we dont have Crit Splitting in MWO,
and it would really help the weapon in being abit more viable,

Hey, twin LBX/20s on a Warhammer or Mauler with STD engines could be brawltastic if they have very high ROF. Enough to make them better than AC/20's... So, very high

[Navid A1]

Every single one of new tech weapons are gonna be steaming piles of garbage.

the nerfinator pre-nerf game is strong!

Mark my words!

Prosperity Park, on 12 June 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

Hey, twin LBX/20s on a Warhammer or Mauler with STD engines could be brawltastic if they have very high ROF. Enough to make them better than AC/20's... So, very high

No. It would be garbage in every way...
Like... LFE allows bigger engine with twin AC20s,
And that AC20s are pinpoint.

There is one way LBX20 is gonna be used... and it is if PGI nerfs AC20 to oblivion which is mostly likely be the case.

[Juodas Varnas]

Metus regem, on 12 June 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

I say the best new toys for the IS that are coming are as follows, in no particular order:

ERML
Light PPC
Heavy PPC
Snub-nosed PPC
UAC/10
MRM's
Stealth Armout
Light Ferro Fib
LFE

Everything else is too niche or just not great over all. personally I am really looking forward to HPPC, UAC/10's and LFE's for the few mechs that I have that run Standards.

RACs bro, RACs!

[Felicitatem Parco]

Navid A1, on 12 June 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

Every single one of new tech weapons are gonna be steaming piles of garbage.

the nerfinator pre-nerf game is strong!

Mark my words!



No. It would be garbage in every way...
Like... LFE allows bigger engine with twin AC20s,
And that AC20s are pinpoint.

There is one way LBX20 is gonna be used... and it is if PGI nerfs AC20 to oblivion which is mostly likely be the case.

No, AC/20 won't get nerfed. The only way LBX20s will be used is if PGI buffs the **** out of them. Now THAT will not happen. I already called it months ago.

And I do wonder why you think all the other awesome tech will be garbage, but I don't want you to tell me since I'll disagree about much of it. I like the idea of the new PPCs, LFE, Gausses, lasers, HMGs, and MRMs, and ATMs.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 12 June 2017 - 12:01 PM.

[Metus regem]

Juodas Varnas, on 12 June 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

RACs bro, RACs!

Too dependent on implementation...

They could range from very bad (long spin time, with large multi round burst with a spin down and long cool down) to very good. (short spin up time, 1 pellet per damage point [2 or 5 depending on RAC/2 or RAC/5], short spin down, average cool down time)

I would rather be excited for equipment that will be less dependent on implementation.


That being said, with the introduction of stealth armour, are we going to see a shift in how ECM works? I mean it already does one of the functions of TT Stealth Armour...

[Antonius Zalman]

Metus regem, on 12 June 2017 - 08:11 AM, said:

Not just that, something like the LB 2 is going to be useless, it goes from a 7t 1 crit weapon (AC/2) to a 7t 4 crit weapon (LB-2X), that is a growth of 300%.... now in TT it was justifiable due to the dual ammo types, now this is doubly damned by the fact that the IS UAC/2 is only 3 crits, but in MWO it is just going to be trash heap... the LB-5 takes just as many crits as a UAC/5, but the UAC/5 in MWO at least allows for double tap...

IS LB-2X is 6 tons and 4 crits - IS UAC/2 is 7 tons and 3 crits
IS LB-5X is 8 tons and 5 crits - IS UAC/5 is 9 tons and 5 crits

Now i know the the class 2 cannons differ very much from either tonnage or crit space. Naturally i would not waste my space on the 2X but rather spend that extra ton on the ultra version.

As for the 5X and UAC/5, kinda hard to choose but given the stats, i wouldnt mind pairing these side by side, or at least in a cluster. Then again, that extra ton spent for the Ultra could mean better DPS overall.

[Metus regem]

Antonius Zalman, on 12 June 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

IS LB-2X is 6 tons and 4 crits - IS UAC/2 is 7 tons and 3 crits
IS LB-5X is 8 tons and 5 crits - IS UAC/5 is 9 tons and 5 crits

Now i know the the class 2 cannons differ very much from either tonnage or crit space. Naturally i would not waste my space on the 2X but rather spend that extra ton on the ultra version.

As for the 5X and UAC/5, kinda hard to choose but given the stats, i wouldnt mind pairing these side by side, or at least in a cluster. Then again, that extra ton spent for the Ultra could mean better DPS overall.

That was kind of my point, the IS LB-2/5/20X are all going to be bad, unless something major is done to make them worth taking. As it stands due to the high chance of jamming, I'd rather take an AC/10 over a UAC/5 for my IS mechs, I'd rather have a reliable weapon that can put them damage where I want it, when I want it.