20 replies to this topic

[CK16]

So for those who do not know what I am talking about. In Battletech rules unit have an easy identification assigned to each varriant and chassis. These are Scout, Striker, Skrimsher, Sniper, Brawler, Missile Boat, & Juggernaut.

Now what does this mean for MWO? Well based off mostly the TT unit role (we might need PGI to reclassify a few, cause they make little sense like TBR-Prime as a Brawler?) But using these unit roles they could lay out how the mech should fall in line with its weight class counter parts. Aka let's take the KDK 1 vs Dire Wolf Prime. The KDK-1 (and all but the 4) is a Brawler, while on the other end the DWF-Prime is a Juggernaut. The KDK-1 should have the higher agility and mobility stats, while the DWF should have better base armor and structure values. This would hopefully encourage builds based around the role, not just the hard points and discourage the misuse of the mech built say around something entirely different than what the Mechs Role was intended for.

Thoughts?
http://www.sarna.net...attleMech_roles
If you are curious as to what chassis/varriants unit roles are, look up the varriant on the Master Unit list here.
http://www.masterunitlist.info

Karl Streiger, on 13 June 2017 - 12:02 AM, said:

could look like this:

Edited by CK16, 13 June 2017 - 06:31 PM.

[Luminis]

CK16, on 12 June 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

his would hopefully encourage builds based around the role, not just the hard points and discourage the misuse of the mech built say around something entirely different than what the Mechs Role was intended for.

I don't think players will suddenly play according to lore. Instead, a chassis that's forced into what's perceived as an unfavourable role will quite simply drop in popularity. By a lot.

/edit:
Just had a look at the Master Unit List for funzies.

The standard Mad Cat Mk. II is listed as a Brawler. The standard loadout for the standard Mk. II is two Gauss Rifles, two LRM15 and four ER Mediums. Yup, sounds like a sweet Brawler, doesn't it?

Edited by Luminis, 12 June 2017 - 10:23 AM.

[Ryllen Kriel]

Luminis, on 12 June 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

I don't think players will suddenly play according to lore. Instead, a chassis that's forced into what's perceived as an unfavourable role will quite simply drop in popularity. By a lot.

I agree. Just a quick example, there's a huge difference between a Catapult LRM boat and a Splat boat, yet there are pilots which excel at each build. Why reward one over the other?

[Battlemaster56]

I mean if the mech base stat's that are built around their role, and allow players to build upon those roles, maybe into subclasses of the role I don't see the problem of testing such a system, if it doesn't impede on the idea of creativity and freedom of one's build.

[Trenchbird]

Luminis, on 12 June 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

I don't think players will suddenly play according to lore. Instead, a chassis that's forced into what's perceived as an unfavourable role will quite simply drop in popularity. By a lot.

/edit:
Just had a look at the Master Unit List for funzies.

The standard Mad Cat Mk. II is listed as a Brawler. The standard loadout for the standard Mk. II is two Gauss Rifles, two LRM15 and four ER Mediums. Yup, sounds like a sweet Brawler, doesn't it?

That's really... Weird.

But I'd totally refit it as a brawler. I prefer AC20s and SRMs anyways.

[Requiemking]

CK, what you don't seem to understand is out of all those roles, a full four will be rarely, if ever, used. Brawling isn't supported because most of the brawler maps in game have been turned into sniper maps, and what few do remain don't support Incursion, so they almost never appear. Out of the missile boats, the only one that doesn't get shamed by team-mates is the SRM boat, but again, won't be used because Brawling in general isn't supported. Juggernauts won't be used because, in many respects, tanking is a form of aiding the enemy. How, you may be wondering? Simple. By sitting there tanking damage, not only are you not rewarded, but you are in fact providing the enemy team with a way to freely increase their paycheck. And the final role, scout, is rewarded so poorly that nobody wants to do it. Thats why the few Light mechs that see regular use are always reconfigured for combat.

[Karl Streiger]

Luminis, on 12 June 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

I don't think players will suddenly play according to lore. Instead, a chassis that's forced into what's perceived as an unfavourable role will quite simply drop in popularity. By a lot.

/edit:
Just had a look at the Master Unit List for funzies.

The standard Mad Cat Mk. II is listed as a Brawler. The standard loadout for the standard Mk. II is two Gauss Rifles, two LRM15 and four ER Mediums. Yup, sounds like a sweet Brawler, doesn't it?

No the issue here is the mistaken meaning of brawl in mwo.
The cat 2 is a brawler like the enforcer is the stereotype of a brawler - its about trading damage. Juggernauts take more but deal at close ...

[CK16]

But it is interesting cause the Nova Prime is considered a Skrimsher (something I would think the same for the Mk II). But yes the Battletech role doesn't always line up 100% with how people preserve MWO terms

[MechaBattler]

They're somewhat taking lore into account. Mechs like the Linebacker, Gargoyle, and Execution are given greater mobility because in the lore they were designed with that in mind.

[Karl Streiger]

Indeed the Mech roll is for the most Mechs somehow already fixed with the quirks. However a speciality tree could be possible too, instead of quirks?

Speaking of specality - the loadout should not decide the role.
A Catapult was desigbed as Mobile Close Firesupport Mech. Only because you put 4 SRM6 on it doesn't change that.
So you may not get the option for extra armor and structure - keep in mind when you want a 65t bruiser armed with 4 SRM6 you should choose the Crusader with JJ.
But this would go in deep - for a start to have a more global setting would be enough:

CK16, on 12 June 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

But it is interesting cause the Nova Prime is considered a Skrimsher (something I would think the same for the Mk II). But yes the Battletech role doesn't always line up 100% with how people preserve MWO terms

The MK II is to slow or to valuable to be used as skirmisher - they the typical workhorse a well rounded mix of mobility, firepower and armor - not fast enough to be a striker - not though enough or with enough weapons to be a brawler.

I think the classic First Trike BattleTech roles can be used quite well in MWO - with the exception that when people talke about brawler they typical talk about Juggernauts.

• Scout - Cicada / Ice Ferret
  
• Striker - Jenner / Arctic Cheetah
  
• Skirmisher - Quickdraw / Nova
  
• Missile Boat - Trebuchet / Mad Dog
  
• Sniper - Vindicator / Warhawk
  
• Brawler - Enforcer / Timber Wolf
  
• Juggernaut - Hunchback / ??? KDK-3

Edited by Karl Streiger, 12 June 2017 - 10:36 PM.

[Kangarad]

both the Atlass D-DC and KGC-000 are Juggernauts... so much for having a good 100ton is brawler.

Id say no.

Edited by Kangarad, 12 June 2017 - 10:53 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Kangarad, on 12 June 2017 - 10:52 PM, said:

both the Atlass D-DC and KGC-000 are Juggernauts... so much for having a good 100ton is brawler.

Id say no.

Wording friend.... of course the AS7-D/DDC/S are Juggernauts same for the KGC-000/5(0)[b] series - they have armor and a centered around short range weapons - their role is to go in the thick of a fight - went through rain and death and destroy the enemy line with one or two well placed shots.

the AS7-K/RS the KGC-010 ; 001; 009 are more the kind of brawler - with longer range weapons - they don't need that much armor but maybe more mobility and centered around medium range combat

could look like this:

[Luminis]

Karl Streiger, on 12 June 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

No the issue here is the mistaken meaning of brawl in mwo.
The cat 2 is a brawler like the enforcer is the stereotype of a brawler - its about trading damage. Juggernauts take more but deal at close ...

True, my bad.

Still, this begs the question how a Brawler's typically heavy armour (according to Sarna) is supposed to give me a reason to stay at long range and protect the Juggernauts. Or why I shouldn't use a Skirmishers mobility to hillhump all day, every day instead of "engaging directly".

[Tincan Nightmare]

These 'roles' only apply to the new fast play Alpha Strike rules. Here's a sample of a unit card showing it's role.
http://www.masteruni...rd/3404?skill=4

As you can see, very different from a typical TRO from BT. Since you don't get actual weapon loadouts under this ruleset, they just gave the different variants of chassis 'roles' to make them distinct. I guess you could still use those designations in MWO, but it's definitely not coming from traditional BT, just from this new 'fast play' rule set that pretty much dumbs the game down to make for speedier matches.

[Karl Streiger]

Luminis, on 13 June 2017 - 12:16 AM, said:

True, my bad.

Still, this begs the question how a Brawler's typically heavy armour (according to Sarna) is supposed to give me a reason to stay at long range and protect the Juggernauts. Or why I shouldn't use a Skirmishers mobility to hillhump all day, every day instead of "engaging directly".

Mabye the typical "peak a boo" behavior when done bad?
Have you ever stood in the open and did blast away at multiple targets when they tried to come around the edge?
When ever they get hit they move back - giving you more time to cool down and have your weapons ready when they clear the edge again and again and again..... Same with Juggernauts and Skirmishers - when you send the "tanks" to soak up fire - your Sniper don't need it. But were the sniper should not be able to much fire - the brawler can

So as you already realized its about Window of Engagement:
Juggernaut = VEEEERYYYYY LLOOOOOOOOOOOONG
Brawler Long
Skrimisher - Medium
the rest - as short as possible.

Focus could still ruin the day of the Juggernaut - but when you hill hump with Sniper or Skirmisher you loose time - and you clearly loose pressure.

[CK16]

Karl, thank you. Specially for that visual graph, puts everything more in perspective then words could.

[Karl Streiger]

CK16, on 13 June 2017 - 04:10 AM, said:

Karl, thank you. Specially for that visual graph, puts everything more in perspective then words could.

I thought the same; but you need to remember its the work of 5min and should not be taken overly serious.

[CK16]

http://www.sarna.net...attleMech_roles

[Snowbluff]

CK16, on 13 June 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...attleMech_roles

Ah so brawler = long range, heavy armor there, and is meant to cover a heavier unit.

So it's like a Destroyer, and the Juggernaut would be like a carrier or battleship.

[Requiemking]

CK16, on 13 June 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...attleMech_roles

Again CK, most of those roles are either not rewarded, are considered to be bad, or are not supported by the game any more.