52 replies to this topic

[Kasumi Sumika]

Escef, on 13 June 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:

Anvil

+1 for Anvil

It only 60 Ton but it have ECM, Highmounts, can zombie also have JJ that can poptart very well. It would be great addition to IS mechs.

Edited by Kasumi Sumika, 14 June 2017 - 12:14 AM.

[TheArisen]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 13 June 2017 - 08:38 PM, said:

That isn't really the point- the point is that we already have two 100t ballistic mechs- both the King Crab and Annihilator have covered the bases, and the Fafnir would really only really be a minimal variation on those.

There isn't any sort of profound amazing quality about it that puts it dramatically ahead of anything that we'd already have- it might be marginally better than the Annihilator if it gets good hitboxes and hardpoints- I would definitely disagree that it has a good torso shape (or good enough to make it hands-down better than the Annihilator). The biggest advantage- engine size, is lost since the desync unless you really think PGI is going to give it the agility to be a wicked amazing brawler, and not treat it like yet another mid-range fire support assault that's slow as **** in every way.

The Fafnir is a total crowd favorite and I have no doubt it'll be added, but this thread is about contenders for certifiably "strong mechs", and the Fafnir has far too many ifs, ands, or maybes to really even enter it into the discussion.

Maybe I'll put it this way: what makes you think the Fafnir is a good mech?

Well the Longbow you suggested has the weakness you mentioned plus easily targeted STs so I don't see it making this list.

The Berserker is a very desirable mech but it's a melee mech which invalidates it but it'd also be HP starved.

The Fafnir's most interesting variant is the 6U which swaps the ballistics to the arms & energy in the torso. So all cockpit height weapons plus relatively safe dual gauss + dual ppc with a decent engine. Speed is still important & also the Anni will be completely unable to spread DMG, just shoot it's giraffe neck. The Fafnir's arms cover some of it's side profile so it will have substantially better ability to spread DMG plus ECM, even in it's nerfed state, is useful. Since strength is the main consideration similarities don't matter so long as it's strong or stronger.

The engine dysync does make the Gunslinger better. It can do dual ppc + Gauss & JJ with ecm. The arms on the minis are fairly high & the energy is cockpit height. Worst case it can corner poke or use it's energy to hillhump or even poptart.

The Viking offers everything the Longbow does & more. If Mrms are good it could be just as good plus it has different build options.

The Cerberus is a great choice, 400 capable, ballistic spread between arms & torso. Basically the Nightstar 9P with a bigger engine in a humanoid frame without the useless missile HP.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Would like to see the Devastator, Pillager, Thug, Spartan, Crusader, Dervish, Valkyrie, Spector, Talon, and Shootist for the IS. Clans I would like some second line mechs, like the Vixen/Incubus, Hellhound/Conjurer, or Kraken/Bane. I would also like the Kingfisher, just for the chance to make a 'zombie' omnimech since it mounts a standard engine. Phantom Omni would also be interesting, basically a Clan Cicada with it's weight and speed.

[TheArisen]

Kasumi Sumika, on 14 June 2017 - 12:14 AM, said:

+1 for Anvil

It only 60 Ton but it have ECM, Highmounts, can zombie also have JJ that can poptart very well. It would be great addition to IS mechs.

I like the Anvil too but I don't think it can compete with the 3 on the list currently. Those being the Dragonfire, Toyama & Falconer

[TheArisen]

Tincan Nightmare, on 14 June 2017 - 12:51 AM, said:

Would like to see the Devastator, Pillager, Thug, Spartan, Crusader, Dervish, Valkyrie, Spector, Talon, and Shootist for the IS. Clans I would like some second line mechs, like the Vixen/Incubus, Hellhound/Conjurer, or Kraken/Bane. I would also like the Kingfisher, just for the chance to make a 'zombie' omnimech since it mounts a standard engine. Phantom Omni would also be interesting, basically a Clan Cicada with it's weight and speed.

I should have been clearer but technically this is an IS mech list but there are some interesting mechs you have listed.

The Devastator just doesn't quite make it in my eyes but I could see it as a top 5 or 10 but not a top 3. Pillager looks super cool but it has the worst JJs & lowish mounts. Thug is loved by many but i has low mounts plus it's 80t so it's inferior to 75 tonners due to the way build rules work. The Spartan is a mech I like but it does have the issue of being 80t plus it's CT mounts aren't helping it. Crusader at 65t can't really compete with the 3 heavies on the list. Dervish, well we have the Griffen but it doesn't have missile drums so there is that but it's STs are still quite large. Valkyrie is a worse Javelin, Spector could be good if volumetrics treat it right, Talon lacks JJs, wide easy to hit ST & 35t could be quite big for weight.

[Karl Streiger]

TheArisen, on 14 June 2017 - 01:17 AM, said:

Dragonfire

Ma Crotch this Mech? A slow fat ebon jaguar with a crotch? - Jinggau would be better option when you want a Ebon Jaguar style. although not armed with two ballistics - it got the extra mobility and speed to compensate

About assaults - Legacy. Legacy Legacy #Legacy or Riot
- the arms might not be very good in shielding the torso but with hover jets and the main guns in cockpit or above cockpit plus a trio of variants that can be everything - ballistic, missile, energy - you don't even have any redundancy when buying 3.

The Saggitaire? a slow 95t mech with the same engine cap as the night star - so a big engine is a no go and as energy only build it lacks the "space" to have even enough heatsinks to keep its multiple dozen of energy weapons cool + PGI would need to invent new P variants - and I really don't want to see a Saggitaire with missiles and ballistics.

The Rampage is a interesting Mech - although only 2 variants it should be the mobile variant of the BattleMaster with a similar rounded mix of weapons.

[Gasboy]

Marauder II is the only mech not in the game that I want.

Longbow is another of the Unseen which I'd like to see in game.

Those two are what I'd vote for in the assault category.

For the lights, Stinger, Wasp and Valkyrie.

[TheArisen]

Karl Streiger, on 14 June 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

Ma Crotch this Mech? A slow fat ebon jaguar with a crotch? - Jinggau would be better option when you want a Ebon Jaguar style. although not armed with two ballistics - it got the extra mobility and speed to compensate

About assaults - Legacy. Legacy Legacy #Legacy or Riot
- the arms might not be very good in shielding the torso but with hover jets and the main guns in cockpit or above cockpit plus a trio of variants that can be everything - ballistic, missile, energy - you don't even have any redundancy when buying 3.

The Saggitaire? a slow 95t mech with the same engine cap as the night star - so a big engine is a no go and as energy only build it lacks the "space" to have even enough heatsinks to keep its multiple dozen of energy weapons cool + PGI would need to invent new P variants - and I really don't want to see a Saggitaire with missiles and ballistics.

The Rampage is a interesting Mech - although only 2 variants it should be the mobile variant of the BattleMaster with a similar rounded mix of weapons.

Except the DFire's weapons aren't as widely spaced as the EBJ so no convergence issue and it's frontal profile is quite good. It's arms cover it's sides very well so it can spread DMG & its disc like torso would do well with volumetrics. Also almost all of it's weapons are cockpit height plus ECM. Also 75t is one of the best weights. I like the Jinnggau but only for it's masc + ecm variant. It's arms are miles apart & it has only arm mounted weapons.

The Saggi is good for it's convergence. In particular it has a variant with 2 ballistics which is the best & most interesting but otherwise I agree it's a slower Wubshee with JJ. Still, that one variant would be potent but it'd basically be a Nightstar so /shurg.

Rampage is a Battlemaster with masc & less energy HP's. Could be good but I think there are other options with better HP's.

[Athom83]

TheArisen, on 13 June 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

Why would those 3 be better than the Fafnir. Also don't forget MWO mechlab.

1) Low number of hardpoints.
2) King Crab syndrome. Very wide and boxy. Will be annihilated by airstrikes. A good chunk of the mech is above the cockpit. (Its basically just a King Crab with the guns in the torso. Especially the 6U, its exactly a King Crab with LPPCs instead of lasers with the 20s in the arms and everything).
3) Low max engine rating. Most likely only going to be 325 or so.
4) Any builds will either be ammo starved, heat inefficient, or slow.

Basically the Marauder II is better than the Fafnir in everything that the IS needs (not wants. H-gauss will be a steaming pile of **** in most cases). And that fact that it is an "upgraded marauder" will make it so it has a 360 engine cap at least, or up all the way to 400 like the IIC. All the 3 listed mechs can have fairly balanced builds for a variety of situations while the Fafnir will be a one trick pony.

[TheArisen]

Athom83, on 14 June 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

1) Low number of hardpoints.
2) King Crab syndrome. Very wide and boxy. Will be annihilated by airstrikes. A good chunk of the mech is above the cockpit. (Its basically just a King Crab with the guns in the torso. Especially the 6U, its exactly a King Crab with LPPCs instead of lasers with the 20s in the arms and everything).
3) Low max engine rating. Most likely only going to be 325 or so.
4) Any builds will either be ammo starved, heat inefficient, or slow.

Basically the Marauder II is better than the Fafnir in everything that the IS needs (not wants. H-gauss will be a steaming pile of **** in most cases). And that fact that it is an "upgraded marauder" will make it so it has a 360 engine cap at least, or up all the way to 400 like the IIC. All the 3 listed mechs can have fairly balanced builds for a variety of situations while the Fafnir will be a one trick pony.

Fafnir has a stock 300 engine so it'd have a cap of 360. Without seeing Alex's artwork it's hard to say exactly how much torso it would have but that would help it with volumetric. Marauder II will have convergence issues (note how far it's weapons are apart) as well as wide open STs but it does have an excellent frontal profile. The Fafnir is what the KC wishes it was and honestly I doubt the best builds will use HGauss. Also it doesn't waste HP's on missiles and inflation is a regular thing. Could be a 100t Mauler with ECM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

TheArisen, on 14 June 2017 - 12:39 AM, said:

Well the Longbow you suggested has the weakness you mentioned plus easily targeted STs so I don't see it making this list.

The Berserker is a very desirable mech but it's a melee mech which invalidates it but it'd also be HP starved.

The Fafnir's most interesting variant is the 6U which swaps the ballistics to the arms & energy in the torso. So all cockpit height weapons plus relatively safe dual gauss + dual ppc with a decent engine. Speed is still important & also the Anni will be completely unable to spread DMG, just shoot it's giraffe neck. The Fafnir's arms cover some of it's side profile so it will have substantially better ability to spread DMG plus ECM, even in it's nerfed state, is useful. Since strength is the main consideration similarities don't matter so long as it's strong or stronger.

The engine dysync does make the Gunslinger better. It can do dual ppc + Gauss & JJ with ecm. The arms on the minis are fairly high & the energy is cockpit height. Worst case it can corner poke or use it's energy to hillhump or even poptart.

The Viking offers everything the Longbow does & more. If Mrms are good it could be just as good plus it has different build options.

The Cerberus is a great choice, 400 capable, ballistic spread between arms & torso. Basically the Nightstar 9P with a bigger engine in a humanoid frame without the useless missile HP.

You're being extremely optimistic about Fafnir hitboxes vs. Annihilator. I'd be shocked if they made the Annihilator neck all CT, considering the Mean Baby model shows the ST missiles coming out of the neck (and the torso hardpoints at shoulder height or above). Fafnir is just a 100t Cicada otherwise.

Strength is the main consideration, but given the penalty 100t mechs took on agility I don't think there's any indication that 100t mechs are strong in general on a class-wide basis, especially not over proven winners that are more tonnage-efficient like the Battlemaster or MX90. I would actually even hesitate to suggest the Berserker- if both it and the Gunslinger were added today, the Gunslinger would be the far better mech of the two.

Edited by Aggravated Assault Mech, 14 June 2017 - 12:48 PM.

[FLG 01]

Athom83, on 14 June 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

1) Low number of hardpoints.
2) King Crab syndrome. Very wide and boxy. Will be annihilated by airstrikes. A good chunk of the mech is above the cockpit. (Its basically just a King Crab with the guns in the torso. Especially the 6U, its exactly a King Crab with LPPCs instead of lasers with the 20s in the arms and everything).
3) Low max engine rating. Most likely only going to be 325 or so.
4) Any builds will either be ammo starved, heat inefficient, or slow.

Basically the Marauder II is better than the Fafnir in everything that the IS needs (not wants. H-gauss will be a steaming pile of **** in most cases). And that fact that it is an "upgraded marauder" will make it so it has a 360 engine cap at least, or up all the way to 400 like the IIC. All the 3 listed mechs can have fairly balanced builds for a variety of situations while the Fafnir will be a one trick pony.

The Marauder II won't get a 400 just because the -IIC got it. And the idea that the Fafnir will get its MWO engine cap lowered just because you apparently feel like it is just as outlandish.
FYI, the engine cap of assaults is usually 1.2x stock engine rating, unless PGI heavily quirks the Mech (see Annihilator). Therefore both Fafnir and Marauder II likely end up with a max rating of 360. (Except, of course, the variants coming with a 400 engine).

As for the general idea that the Marauder II would be better than the Fafnir... Well, it is mildly amusing to see someone advocating the Marauder II by pointing to the limited hardpoint count of the Fafnir with a straight face, considering all the Marauder II variants (except the rocket launcher one) have an equally low number of hardpoints - or even less than that.
The Fafnir's hardpoints however are not only better distributed, allowing for greater inflation, they are also mounted higher in most cases. And they are more useful. There is only so much you can do with the Marauder's 4 energy HP in the arms and one in the ST, even if there is inflation.

[TheArisen]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 14 June 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

You're being extremely optimistic about Fafnir hitboxes vs. Annihilator. I'd be shocked if they made the Annihilator neck all CT, considering the Mean Baby model shows the ST missiles coming out of the neck (and the torso hardpoints at shoulder height or above). Fafnir is just a 100t Cicada otherwise.

Strength is the main consideration, but given the penalty 100t mechs took on agility I don't think there's any indication that 100t mechs are strong in general on a class-wide basis, especially not over proven winners that are more tonnage-efficient like the Battlemaster or MX90. I would actually even hesitate to suggest the Berserker- if both it and the Gunslinger were added today, the Gunslinger would be the far better mech of the two.

Well at least we can agree the GSlinger is a good choice. Although due to the Berserker's high mobilty nature PGI would likely make it more agile than other 100t mechs, maybe. KDK didn't but that might be due to how good it's been.

I also agree in a general sense 100t has become a less than ideal weight in MWO but with minor inflation the Fafnir could be quite good but as you've noted, not perfect. I don't think the IS really has a flawless choice currently. As I said earlier I and most others wouldn't be using HGauss.

Btw the Fafnir isn't always a big fatty.

[Jay Leon Hart]

I don't see how the Gunslinger is a good choice - it's a slower, undergunned BattleMaster, but with ECM and JJs. PGI could just add the BLR-4L for a variant with ECM and JJs. We already know that timeline only matters for the base variant, so what does the Gunslinger have that the BattleMaster, including the BLR-4L, doesn't? Low Ballistic arms that we know no-one will actually put guns in?

I'll admit, the custom "Jared" would make an interesting Hero 'mech, if only because I love me a good Zeus DOOMFIST.

[Edit] Ah, I missed those rear facing MPLs! [/Edit]

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 14 June 2017 - 01:21 PM.

[Acehilator]

TheArisen, on 14 June 2017 - 12:39 AM, said:

The Viking offers everything the Longbow does & more. If Mrms are good it could be just as good plus it has different build options.

The Cerberus is a great choice, 400 capable, ballistic spread between arms & torso. Basically the Nightstar 9P with a bigger engine in a humanoid frame without the useless missile HP.

Damn, how could I forget the Viking?! That thing is mech porn at its finest, and nice hardpoints too

Cerberus, also super slick looks, but the default arm pose will once again hold a nice mech down.

[TheArisen]

Acehilator, on 14 June 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

Damn, how could I forget the Viking?! That thing is mech porn at its finest, and nice hardpoints too

Cerberus, also super slick looks, but the default arm pose will once again hold a nice mech down.

I like the Viking a lot. It could have a great front as well as many build options. It's not dependent on MRMs but if Mrms are good it could be quite something.

Not all Cerberus artwork has low arms.

Jay Leon Hart, on 14 June 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

I don't see how the Gunslinger is a good choice - it's a slower, undergunned BattleMaster, but with ECM and JJs. PGI could just add the BLR-4L for a variant with ECM and JJs. We already know that timeline only matters for the base variant, so what does the Gunslinger have that the BattleMaster, including the BLR-4L, doesn't? Low Ballistic arms that we know no-one will actually put guns in?

I'll admit, the custom "Jared" would make an interesting Hero 'mech, if only because I love me a good Zeus DOOMFIST.

[Edit] Ah, I missed those rear facing MPLs! [/Edit]

Yeah I suppose the 4L would fill the role.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Jay Leon Hart, on 14 June 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

I don't see how the Gunslinger is a good choice - it's a slower, undergunned BattleMaster, but with ECM and JJs. PGI could just add the BLR-4L for a variant with ECM and JJs. We already know that timeline only matters for the base variant, so what does the Gunslinger have that the BattleMaster, including the BLR-4L, doesn't? Low Ballistic arms that we know no-one will actually put guns in?

I'll admit, the custom "Jared" would make an interesting Hero 'mech, if only because I love me a good Zeus DOOMFIST.

[Edit] Ah, I missed those rear facing MPLs! [/Edit]

The arms on the Gunslinger would be higher than the arms on the Battlemaster- it's nearly impossible to get a ballistic mount lower than the arm ballistic on the Battlemaster.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 14 June 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

The arms on the Gunslinger would be higher than the arms on the Battlemaster- it's nearly impossible to get a ballistic mount lower than the arm ballistic on the Battlemaster.

They both look waist high to me. So not Cataphract bad, but not exactly good either.

[TheArisen]

Jay Leon Hart, on 14 June 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

They both look waist high to me. So not Cataphract bad, but not exactly good either.

On the minis it looks like the arms are at mid chest so not too bad but not uber.

[Jay Leon Hart]

TheArisen, on 15 June 2017 - 12:24 AM, said:

On the minis it looks like the arms are at mid chest so not too bad but not uber.

Yeah, Alex managed to save the Nightstar, so who knows! Still, I can only go off what I can find (though I could look on Iron Wind Metals, I probably wouldn't)