439 replies to this topic

[Zarock]

SPNKRGrenth, on 22 June 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

I'm not sure if you're using sarcasm or I'm misreading what you posted, but it looks like you're disagreeing with Zergling even though you're both saying the same thing. That Clan small pulse lasers should be more damage per heat efficient them the medium one, just like every other small laser in the game is more heat effective than the larger ones.

In case I'm just dumb, then yeah I agree the Clan small pulse laser should be a bit more heat efficient than it is right now. Heat gen should really be 2.5 instead of 2.7.

I may have misinterpreted that, in that case: sorry for the confusion

DarklightCA, on 22 June 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

A lot of complaining in this thread.

Yes, Im sorry, I dislike complaining, too, its just that my favourite mechs dont work anymore, the effort I put into skilling is gone and it doesnt even make sense. And yes, I am complaining about that.

[MovinTarget]

I'm split on this.

I can see if a mech gets re-quirked or its baseline stats change (I.e. Mobility or Archetype), your SP should be refunded because that mech's role/focus/meta may have changed dramatically.

When the weapons stats change, that strikes me as being considerably messier. I mean hypothetically a player with any mech that can carry an SPL could argue they deserve a respecc. I'm not trying to minimize the effect on Nova/Gargoyle/etc specifically but I just don't know if refunding the SP on every single freaking mech is going to make people happier, especially if there is no "opt out" mechanism in case you want to keep the SP where they are.

Perhaps the solution is to give people a "get out of jail free" card on select variants where if something like this happens, they have access to a "Refund SP" option for those mechs and they can start over, but only if they want to.

Makes sense?

[NocturnalBeast]

mycroft000, on 22 June 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

Played a match last night with the new values on my 6ERSL+4ERML Nova Prime. Clan medium and small lasers have not been nerfed. If anything they may have brought my Nova back from all of the recent nerfs.

Clan ER smalls have a longer cooldown time now and clan small pulses had their cooldown slightly reduced and their damage significantly reduced, but they still have high heat. How are these examples not nerfs?

[Mycroft000]

There is no good solution to post-rebalance respec costs other than "Deal with it". It sucks, but it's true. If the general consensus is that the new system is better than the old module/rule of 3 system, then we have to accept that they're going to continually change values on weaponry/mechs and understand that sometimes we'll get screwed, other times we'll get massive benefits.

In this case, my Nova has returned to a 1k+ damage mech. I'm not complaining, but I can see why others might.

[Mycroft000]

Ed Steele, on 22 June 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

Clan ER smalls have a longer cooldown time now and clan small pulses had their cooldown slightly reduced and their damage significantly reduced, but they still have high heat. How are these examples not nerfs?

In the most technical terms, yes they are nerfed. But in reality, proper heat management means that you're firing all of those lasers with enough time between shots that the increased cool down time is literally meaningless. The only exception to that is if you're heat management is so good that you can't overheat with constant never ending firing of your small or medium lasers. I don't know what mech I'd run that way though.

[NocturnalBeast]

mycroft000, on 22 June 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

In the most technical terms, yes they are nerfed. But in reality, proper heat management means that you're firing all of those lasers with enough time between shots that the increased cool down time is literally meaningless. The only exception to that is if you're heat management is so good that you can't overheat with constant never ending firing of your small or medium lasers. I don't know what mech I'd run that way though.

The increased face-time required to do the same amount of damage as before the patch means that you are more likely to be cored by a high damage focused attack.

[Steinkrieg]

Did some tests in Testing Grounds with my 10 cSPLAS EXE on the fAtlas. My facetime to core out its CT increased by about 5 seconds. Of course, cutting the dmg from the 10 cSPLAS from 60 to 40 would have this effect. I have two cERLLAS on this build as well, and I did not fire them for my tests pre- and post patch.

Overall impressions - the Thunderfist build can still 'work' if mechs 65 tons or lighter are targeted because of the reduced heat and cooldown. However, once you start hitting 70 ton mechs, especially those with quirked CTs like some of the Cataphracts, the face time starts to crawl up to where it is untenable to spend that amount of facetime and survive the encounter.

This wouldn't be much of an issue if the prior nerfs to turning and such did not happen. With judicious use of MASC pre-turning nerfs, I could get behind Atlas and other slower heavies and assaults on my EXE and core out their backs. You can't really jump over them in an EXE because of the jump jet nerfs, so that's out too. You're better off going 5 tons lighter in a SNV if you want to cERLLAS poke just because you have the cDHS to support it. There's really no reason to run EXEs anymore :/ Looks like they're going back into mothballs for me again

[Mycroft000]

Ed Steele, on 22 June 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

The increased face-time required to do the same amount of damage as before the patch means that you are more likely to be cored by a high damage focused attack.

If the increased .1 second of burn time matters that much to you over the course of a match, then you're spending too much time facing the enemy to begin with. Especially with ERSL and ERML. ERLL, I haven't run it yet to test, but I suspect that the result is going to be the same for me, a net increase in damage output after the rebalance.

But really, increased burn time in such small increments really doesn't amount to enough face time to matter unless your positioning puts you in a situation where you would have been killed/cored anyway. Just think about it in terms of amount of time per minute that you're facetime has increased instead of fractions of a second to really get a sense of the time we're talking about here:

Previously an ERSL fired over 60 seconds is 18.46 shots.
Now an ERSL fired over 60 seconds is 15.58.

That would seem to actually make a difference. And it would seem to make even more of a difference when you stack multiples. Damage on the ERSL hasn't changed, so previously, ignoring heat, sure you could do 553.8 damage over the course of 60 seconds with a single arm on a Nova. And sure, the new numbers reduce that to 467.4. But can you fire those lasers that many times without overheating? No. so it's back to my argument that in practice, these tweaks(At least to the ERSL) are virtually meaningless.

The reason I say that is firing 6 at a time on the Nova, max you could fire previously over the course of about 20 seconds was approximately 6-7 times alternating between arms. That number hasn't really changed because we can't ignore heat when we're talking about duration and cooldown tweaks to the weapons.

[Steinkrieg]

mycroft000, on 22 June 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

mycroft000 post edited for space

Novas were not very much affected by this patch. The playstyle of Novas was not face tanking anyway. It's always been a peak and poke mech, whether it's doing it from behind terrain or a larger mech. It's when you get to higher tonnage mechs with miniscule amounts of tonnage available in which to load out the mech with weaponry is where the patch is really hurting. Clans simply cannot get away with running low alpha, long burn duration builds for brawling on heavies and assaults or on fast lights and mediums. The Nova is slow enough to let the longer burns work. Not so much on the Viper Medusa. The SCR wasn't hurt as badly because it can run other viable builds without relying on cSPLAS for dmg.

[Mycroft000]

Steinkrieg, on 22 June 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

I disagree, Novas were greatly affected by this patch...for the better. My heat management went from 1.08 to 1.19 without changing a single thing on it. That's massive.

As for face tanking, I couldn't disagree more. I've traded far more than my share of tonnage with the enemy in my 12ERSL Nova just facing people down because the cycling of weapon groups goes so quickly that while they're torso twisting to try to avoid dying, I can keep pumping damage into them.

I haven't tried it yet, but I'll bet my 8ERSL Viper can still hold its own.

[Steinkrieg]

mycroft000, on 22 June 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

What exactly are you face tanking? Most of my brawler builds poop on Novas trying to face tank me, and that's from my Huntsman on up.

[NocturnalBeast]

mycroft000, on 22 June 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

If the increased .1 second of burn time matters that much to you over the course of a match, then you're spending too much time facing the enemy to begin with. Especially with ERSL and ERML. ERLL, I haven't run it yet to test, but I suspect that the result is going to be the same for me, a net increase in damage output after the rebalance.

But really, increased burn time in such small increments really doesn't amount to enough face time to matter unless your positioning puts you in a situation where you would have been killed/cored anyway. Just think about it in terms of amount of time per minute that you're facetime has increased instead of fractions of a second to really get a sense of the time we're talking about here:

Previously an ERSL fired over 60 seconds is 18.46 shots.
Now an ERSL fired over 60 seconds is 15.58.

That would seem to actually make a difference. And it would seem to make even more of a difference when you stack multiples. Damage on the ERSL hasn't changed, so previously, ignoring heat, sure you could do 553.8 damage over the course of 60 seconds with a single arm on a Nova. And sure, the new numbers reduce that to 467.4. But can you fire those lasers that many times without overheating? No. so it's back to my argument that in practice, these tweaks(At least to the ERSL) are virtually meaningless.

The reason I say that is firing 6 at a time on the Nova, max you could fire previously over the course of about 20 seconds was approximately 6-7 times alternating between arms. That number hasn't really changed because we can't ignore heat when we're talking about duration and cooldown tweaks to the weapons.

You previously stated that there was no nerf. My point is that if you were able to do something before the patch, but are no longer able to that same something as well after the patch, isn't that a nerf?

[Mycroft000]

Steinkrieg, on 22 June 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

What exactly are you face tanking? Most of my brawler builds poop on Novas trying to face tank me, and that's from my Huntsman on up.

KDKs, KGCs, TBRs, some DWFs, NTGs, these are all before this patch, but I feel pretty confident that little has changed. As long as I'm within fairly decent range, it's pretty rare that I get myself killed in a 1 on 1 face tanking situation. That said, if I can't close distance, then yeah, I'm toast. But up close, there aren't many mechs that make me turn and find cover.

Ed Steele, on 22 June 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

You previously stated that there was no nerf. My point is that if you were able to do something before the patch, but are no longer able to that same something as well after the patch, isn't that a nerf?

As I said, technically yes, a nerf, in practice no. Since the skill tree my average QP match damage dropped to somewhere around 4-600, with the laser rebalance, I am back up over 1k. I can't see that as a real nerf in terms of how the weapons function in real matches compared to just looking at the numbers.

I've come to the conclusion that in such small increments these nerfs are basically meaningless since they don't really affect anything over the course of a full match. They may have some tiny effect on the long term statistical numbers of the game, but in a moment to moment basis, it's not a big enough change to really change anything.

[NocturnalBeast]

I guess the RAC jam chance reduction in the skill tree was not supposed to be in the game yet and was just removed in the hot fix.

[Steinkrieg]

mycroft000, on 22 June 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

.

I find it extremely hard to believe that you face tank competent pilots in brawl spec KDKs, KGCs, and TBRs, especially if they are fresh. Face tanking a cored out mech is completely different than a fresh one. You simply cannot put out the damage before you lose an arm against those mechs.

[HeresWhy]

Aramuside, on 22 June 2017 - 12:02 AM, said:

Nice work alt but stupid comments.

When unable to defend your stupid argument, attack the poster for pointing it out.

Edited by HeresWhy, 22 June 2017 - 05:23 PM.

[Mycroft000]

Steinkrieg, on 22 June 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

I find it extremely hard to believe that you face tank competent pilots in brawl spec KDKs, KGCs, and TBRs, especially if they are fresh. Face tanking a cored out mech is completely different than a fresh one. You simply cannot put out the damage before you lose an arm against those mechs.

I don't mind you finding it hard to believe.

[Steinkrieg]

mycroft000, on 22 June 2017 - 06:17 PM, said:

I don't mind you finding it hard to believe.

You don't mind living in a fantasy world either.
The math isn't there. My KDK-SB does a 98 dmg alpha strike. You have to be running 2 armor on your RCT to be able to survive a hit. My MAD-IIC-SC does a 108 alpha strike. You literally cannot survive that or my SNV-BOILER which can pump out 138.5 dmg. My KGC-0000 does a 91.5 alpha. You barely survive that, and then you die next cooldown. My TBR-PRIME(I) does a 90.3 alpha strike, then you die to sustained MGUN fire before the next CD of my other weapons. My AS7-S only puts out an 81.5 alpha, but combined with it's structure quirks, you're still in for a bad time.

Face tanking is literally going face to face and trading shots until someone dies. It's a DPS race vs your opponents armor and structure. The Nova may have a lot of DPS and a lot of sustain in your 12 cERSLAS build, but it does not have the armor to do that with a brawl spec top end heavy or assault with a competent pilot at the helm. On top of that, even with those front loaded, high alpha damage brawl builds, they're not going to try to CT you. They're going to take a side torso to half you damage and then kill you by taking your other side torso. This is the reality of face tank brawling.

[Zergling]

mycroft000, on 22 June 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

If the increased .1 second of burn time matters that much to you over the course of a match, then you're spending too much time facing the enemy to begin with. Especially with ERSL and ERML.

But really, increased burn time in such small increments really doesn't amount to enough face time to matter unless your positioning puts you in a situation where you would have been killed/cored anyway. Just think about it in terms of amount of time per minute that you're facetime has increased instead of fractions of a second to really get a sense of the time we're talking about here:

Wrong, any increase in face time increases damage taken.

mycroft000, on 22 June 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

I disagree, Novas were greatly affected by this patch...for the better. My heat management went from 1.08 to 1.19 without changing a single thing on it. That's massive.

What? Heat management only went up because maximum rate of fire went down. You could emulate the same heat management before the nerf, by simply not firing at maximum rate of fire!

mycroft000, on 22 June 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

But in reality, proper heat management means that you're firing all of those lasers with enough time between shots that the increased cool down time is literally meaningless. The only exception to that is if you're heat management is so good that you can't overheat with constant never ending firing of your small or medium lasers. I don't know what mech I'd run that way though.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong.

There isn't a nerf to sustained DPS output, but there is a nerf to maximum DPS output. And that is a nerf, because being able to dump damage quickly before being force to slow rate of fire or back-off is very useful.

mycroft000, on 22 June 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

In this case, my Nova has returned to a 1k+ damage mech. I'm not complaining, but I can see why others might.

mycroft000, on 22 June 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

As I said, technically yes, a nerf, in practice no. Since the skill tree my average QP match damage dropped to somewhere around 4-600, with the laser rebalance, I am back up over 1k.

FYI, everyone can see your QP leaderboard stats.

Average damage is closely related to Match Score; it averages around 1.5-1.6 times Match Score. Because your Average Match Score went up after the Skill Tree was introduced late-Season 11, your damage output likely increased, not decreased.

Further, you aren't even hitting an average of 400 damage, nevermind 600 or even 1000.

Edited by Zergling, 22 June 2017 - 07:41 PM.

[Mycroft000]

Zergling, on 22 June 2017 - 07:36 PM, said:

FYI, everyone can see your QP leaderboard stats.

Leaderboards don't tell anyone that since season 3 I've had family priorities that have drastically cut back on my available time to play.

Leaderboards also don't tell anyone that I'm playing the game for fun and don't really care about my stats. Look at my season one stats in mediums if you want to see my competitive numbers.