131 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

they are probably just adjusting things to make room for the heavy small medium and large lasers coming next month

[FupDup]

Kin3ticX, on 17 June 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

they are probably just adjusting things to make room for the heavy small medium and large lasers coming next month

"Make room" as in make the new stuff clearly better for a few months just to nerf down later?

[Zergling]

FupDup, on 17 June 2017 - 05:33 PM, said:

Coincidentally, the SPL was also not worth using in TT.

It found a niche use when it received an anti-infantry bonus around... Battletech Master Rules, I think?

[FupDup]

Zergling, on 17 June 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

It found a niche use when it received an anti-infantry bonus around... Battletech Master Rules, I think?

There are plenty of other ways to kill infantry, one of which includes the Micro Pulse Laser that does equal damage (both anti-mech and anti-infantry) as the SPL but for half the weight and half the heat.

[Zergling]

FupDup, on 17 June 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

There are plenty of other ways to kill infantry, one of which includes the Micro Pulse Laser that does equal damage (both anti-mech and anti-infantry) as the SPL but for half the weight and half the heat.

Yep, the Micro Pulse beat it out of that niche. It still retained that niche for Inner Sphere though, as they never received something comparable to the Micro Pulse.

The TT balance of Small Laser type weapons is honestly horrifically bad.

Clans:
ER Small = 0.5 tons, 5 damage, 2 heat, 6 range
ER Micro = 0.25 tons, 2 damage, 1 heat, 4 range
Heavy Small = 0.5 tons, 6 damage, 3 heat, 3 range
Small Pulse = 1.0 tons, 3 damage, 2 heat, 6 range
Micro Pulse = 0.5 tons, 3 damage, 1 heat, 3 range
ER Small Pulse = 1.5 tons, 5 damage, 3 heat, 6 range

Like, why use a pair of ER Micro over a single ER Small? That is 4 damage at 4 range, versus 5 damage at 6 range!
Why use the Heavy Small over the ER Small? That single point of extra damage isn't worth half the range and one more point of heat!
Why use the ER Small Pulse at all? For just 0.5 tons more you can get a Medium Pulse with twice the range and 2 more points of damage!

The Small Pulse does have a small niche over the Micro Pulse due to having twice the range... but given it is twice the damage output, the Micro Pulse is definitely the better option.

Edited by Zergling, 17 June 2017 - 05:47 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Welp, time to take IS SPL off of literally every single 'Mech I have it mounted on.

Were there even any 'Mechs that could actually abuse SPL at 4 damage? No IS 'Mech carries more than 9 energy hardpoints, and most of the 'Mechs that have 8 or 9 (ie those that can break the critical 30 damage alpha barrier) are way too slow to make effective use of something with that short of a range as a primary weapon. The FS9-A has been terrible since the rescale, so that's not a balance problem... and the only other 'Mech I can think of that's dangerous boating SPL is the LCT-1E (*edit- and only then with an expert pilot, as it can only take 6 and requires very precise shooting to achieve quick kills).

Seriously... lasers as DPS don't work. High facetime on a short-ranged weapon that causes no screen shake is a recipe for messy death. Refire rate is functionally irrelevant, because on the handful of 'Mechs IS SPL is actually useful on, you aren't going to be firing as soon as your weapons are off cooldown anyway.

I predict the total extinction of IS SPL within a week of the patch.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 17 June 2017 - 06:14 PM.

[FupDup]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 17 June 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

Welp, time to take IS SPL off of literally every single 'Mech I have it mounted on.

Were there even any 'Mechs that could actually abuse SPL at 4 damage? No IS 'Mech carries more than 9 energy hardpoints, and most of the 'Mechs that have 8 or 9 (ie those that can break the critical 30 damage alpha barrier) are way too slow to make effective use of something with that short of a range as a primary weapon. The FS9-A has been terrible since the rescale, so that's not a balance problem... and the only other 'Mech I can think of that's dangerous boating SPL is the LCT-1E.

Seriously... lasers as DPS don't work. High facetime on a short-ranged weapon that causes no screen shake is a recipe for messy death. Refire rate is functionally irrelevant, because on the handful of 'Mechs IS SPL is actually useful on, you aren't going to be firing as soon as your weapons are off cooldown anyway.

I predict the total extinction of IS SPL within a week of the patch.

Well, the "lasers as DPS" idea actually COULD possibly work if the DPS was actually cranked up pretty high. I'm talking at least 30-40% higher than the current values (e.g. set the IS SPL to around 2 DPS or so, current is 1.45).

We would also probably want pulses to have LESS heat per second than standard lasers because heat is the primary limiter of DPS in this game (less heat means more DPS, usually).

[WrathOfDeadguy]

SRM2s work as DPS because they cause screen shake, have relatively low heatgen, and cause big flashy explosions that obstruct the target's view. Small-bore ACs work as DPS because, again, screen shake, low heat, explosions... but also range and pinpoint ability.

Lasers cause no screen shake, have relatively high heatgen (even in the small class), and rather than obscuring the target's LOS to you they leave an impossible-to-miss shoot me guide right back to your 'Mech. Small lasers have pinpoint, but worse range than anything besides flamers and MGs.

But... we don't have to look far to find an example of DPS lasers going badly. MW4 went that route with pulses, and with the exception of X-pulse none of them saw any use. Lasers were much better in that game, as they were hitscan and PPFLD, could cause knockback/knockdown, and only had TT equivalent armor values to contend with. MWO's lasers have burn times, and have to cut through thicker armor. If DPS lasers did not work when the concept had every possible advantage, they won't work now, no matter what PGI does with heat.

It's just a bad idea. There is no way to execute it that won't kill any laser weapon the concept is applied to.

[4rcs1ne]

I'm ok with nerfing the C-SPL but this seems way too extreme. Pre-nerf, 6 C-SPL's would do 36 damage and now they only will do 24. This is a huge difference and considerably nerfs C-SPL energy boating (And the laser in general). Also, the quirk changes in cooldown, heat generation, and duration are not large enough to account for this. Therefore, expect to see the C-SPL become extinct.

Also, wasn't the IS Small Laser arguably the worst energy weapon in the game? Why the actual **** would they use this as a baseline? Common sense would say to buff the IS small laser and reign in the Clan Small Lasers (Pulse and ER) gradually. These nerfs will just leave the IS Small Laser as terrible as its ever been. Horrible, absolutely horrible.

I just want to thank you PGI. You have officially proved that you are incompetent at game balance.

End rant.

[Deathlike]

You know... it's as if we've had similar discussions about PGI long before this... with a different guy.

Gee, I wonder what's the correlation.

Leave it to people that barely play the game... let alone understand the game to make RNGesus powered Dartboard of Balance level of decision making.

[Cyrion]

Zergling, on 17 June 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

So shove your blaming and shaming where the sun doesn't shine.

Hit a nerve, huh? Repent my son, and be absolved of your sins!

[Mister Blastman]

Kin3ticX, on 17 June 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

they are probably just adjusting things to make room for the heavy small medium and large lasers coming next month

You mean... making what we have now worse, so the new stuff is what the old used to be, aka bait and switch.