44 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Heavy small laser - heat 3, damage 6.

"Waaahhhh, my 3 damage small pulse laser doesn't deal 6 damage anymore"

I am glad you quit the game over this.

See you in a week when you come back without admitting that you screamed and quit like a child flipping a checkerboard over.

Guess what? HSL comes out next month. Don't pretend you didn't know about it.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 20 June 2017 - 12:00 PM.

[r4plez]

make room for new stuff, what to hate..

[Mazzyplz]

didn't small pulse do 4 damage?
or do you mean clan small pulse

[Felicitatem Parco]

r4plez, on 20 June 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

make room for new stuff, what to hate..

I, for one, welcome our new community structure after the great June 2017 Purge.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 20 June 2017 - 11:57 AM.

[FupDup]

Are you trying to imply that the TT Clan SPL was balanced at 3 damage? Aren't you one of the ones who normally says that stuff should be changed from TT stats when necessary?

If you're gonna use TT stats, I'm gonna point out that the Clan Micro Pulse Laser also does 3 damage. For half the tonnage. And less heat. The Micro Wub completely poops all over the newly nerfed Small Wub.

The Heavy SL also is NOT going to have 3 heat. Why would it generate the same heat as the ERSL? That would be stupid. It's going to be 4 heat minimum. Even then, though, it will be blatently superior to the Clan SPL just like the ERSL is now.

r4plez, on 20 June 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

make room for new stuff, what to hate..

"Making room" = Making new stuff superior.

The Micro Pulse and Heavy Small have a very large chance of being objectively better than the Small Pulse at the same role unless the Micro and HSL are nerfed from TT stats.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Mazzyplz, on 20 June 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

didn't small pulse do 4 damage?
or do you mean clan small pulse

I used a TT stats an example. SPL deals 3 damage on paper. PGI had it at 6 prior to the HSL. They brought the SPL down to less than HSL damage since HSL comes out next month

How many children screamed and quit over this? A surprising amount.

FupDup, on 20 June 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

Are you trying to imply that the TT Clan SPL was balanced at 3 damage? Aren't you one of the ones who normally says that stuff should be changed from TT stats when necessary?

If you're gonna use TT stats, I'm gonna point out that the Clan Micro Pulse Laser also does 3 damage. For half the tonnage. And less heat. The Micro Wub completely poops all over the newly nerfed Small Wub.

The Heavy SL also is NOT going to have 3 heat. Why would it generate the same heat as the ERSL? That would be stupid. It's going to be 4 heat minimum. Even then, though, it will be blatently superior to the Clan SPL just like the ERSL is now.


"Making room" = Making new stuff superior.

The Micro Pulse and Heavy Small have a very large chance of being objectively better than the Small Pulse at the same role unless the Micro and HSL are nerfed from TT stats.

Of course you can't use TT stats directly, but you can use the impending release of the HSL to justify making the SPL less powerful than it.

So many people can not fathom this. It is very sad.

[FupDup]

Prosperity Park, on 20 June 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

Of course you can't use TT stats directly, but you can use the impending release of the HSL to justify making the SPL less powerful than it.

So many people can not fathom this. It is very sad.

The Clan SPL is double the tonnage of the Heavy SL. The Heavy SL should not be more powerful than the Clan SPL at the exact same role (ideally they'd have different roles but that is another discussion).

You're also the person who normally advocates that the heavier equipment should always be superior. Funny to see you reverse this and say that the Heavy SL should be the superior one.

Edited by FupDup, 20 June 2017 - 12:01 PM.

[JohnnyWayne]

Prosperity Park, on 20 June 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

Heavy small laser - heat 3, damage 6.

"Waaahhhh, my 3 damage small pulse laser doesn't deal 6 damage anymore"

I am glad you quit the game over this.

See you in a week when you come back without admitting that you screamed and quit like a child flipping a checkerboard over.

Guess what? HSL comes out next month. Don't pretend you didn't know about it.

100 meter range anyone? Not enough to matter I mean.

[Felicitatem Parco]

JohnnyWayne, on 20 June 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

100 meter range anyone? Not enough to matter I mean.

Like the IS SPL? Oh, I guess the IS SPL should be 6 damage then.

NO, WAIT. The Clan SPL has longer range for the same weight and size, so the IS SPL should do 7 or 8 damage.

Get to Twitter, tell Russ the IS SPL should deal 7 damage.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 20 June 2017 - 12:11 PM.

[dario03]

Prosperity Park, on 20 June 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

I used a TT stats an example. SPL deals 3 damage on paper. PGI had it at 6 prior to the HSL. They brought the SPL down to less than HSL damage since HSL comes out next month

How many children screamed and quit over this? A surprising amount.



Of course you can't use TT stats directly, but you can use the impending release of the HSL to justify making the SPL less powerful than it.

So many people can not fathom this. It is very sad.

Most people can fathom it, and have in the other threads. They just also fathom that it doesn't really matter because we don't need to over nerf a weapon just to make room for another weapon.

[WarHippy]

CSPL should have been dropped to 5 rather than 4 which still leaves it functional without invalidating new equipment coming in. Where it is now with this patch leaves it inferior to basically everything else.

[Dee Eight]

FupDup, on 20 June 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

Are you trying to imply that the TT Clan SPL was balanced at 3 damage? Aren't you one of the ones who normally says that stuff should be changed from TT stats when necessary?

Yes...because it had the same 6 hex range as the clan ER Small laser and the same 2 heat. Its twice the range of an IS SPL for the same heat/damage/weight. It traded tonnage and damage in exchange for the significantly improved accuracy over the C-ERSL. The medium and large clan pulse lasers traded tonnage and range for their accuracy bonus. The micro traded weight and range compared to the ER micro.

Quote

If you're gonna use TT stats, I'm gonna point out that the Clan Micro Pulse Laser also does 3 damage. For half the tonnage. And less heat. The Micro Wub completely poops all over the newly nerfed Small Wub.

The Micro pulse was designed to replace the standard small laser, which was still used on battle armors and proto-mechs. It was not meant for general battlemech/omnimech usage. They weren't there to boat the things on executioners for example. It has the exact same range profile as the standard small laser, same heat, same damage, same space, same weight... but its got the pulse laser accuracy bonus...thus is how it is better.

[FupDup]

Dee Eight, on 20 June 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

Yes...because it had the same 6 hex range as the clan ER Small laser and the same 2 heat. Its twice the range of an IS SPL for the same heat/damage/weight. It traded tonnage and damage in exchange for the significantly improved accuracy over the C-ERSL. The medium and large clan pulse lasers traded tonnage and range for their accuracy bonus. The micro traded weight and range compared to the ER micro.

I think you might have missed how the Clan MPL and LPL both have more damage than IS versions in addition to their range and accuracy, and how both of them share the same damage as their Clan counterparts (CLPL damage = CERLL and CERML damage = CMPL).

The SPL is an outlier, on both sides (although it sticks out more blatantly on the Clan side).

Dee Eight, on 20 June 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

The Micro pulse was designed to replace the standard small laser, which was still used on battle armors and proto-mechs. It was not meant for general battlemech/omnimech usage. They weren't there to boat the things on executioners for example. It has the exact same range profile as the standard small laser, same heat, same damage, same space, same weight... but its got the pulse laser accuracy bonus...thus is how it is better.

It was designed to take up tonnage and critical slots as per mech construction rules, a few mechs have it stock, and in MWO it's going to be used exclusively on mechs. "Not designed for mechs" is an irrelevant argument for this game. And even in TT there's little reason not to use 1-2 Micro Pulse in place of a Small Pulse on any unit that can take it.

[Andi Nagasia]

FupDup, on 20 June 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

If you're gonna use TT stats, I'm gonna point out that the Clan Micro Pulse Laser also does 3 damage. For half the tonnage. And less heat. The Micro Wub completely poops all over the newly nerfed Small Wub.

ya the (4Damage 165mRange 1Ton 2.7Heat) C-SPL is going to be completely useless,
VS the (3Damage 90mRange 0.5Ton 1Heat) C-MicroPL(assuming your in 90m )

FupDup, on 20 June 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

The Heavy SL also is NOT going to have 3 heat. Why would it generate the same heat as the ERSL? That would be stupid. It's going to be 4 heat minimum. Even then, though, it will be blatently superior to the Clan SPL just like the ERSL is now.

ya the (4Damage 165mRange 1Ton 2.7Heat) C-SPL is going to be completely useless,
VS the (6Damage 90mRange 0.5Ton 3Heat) C-HSL(assuming your in 90m )

FupDup, on 20 June 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

"Making room" = Making new stuff superior.

The Micro Pulse and Heavy Small have a very large chance of being objectively better than the Small Pulse at the same role unless the Micro and HSL are nerfed from TT stats.

looking at the stats they look very much even, all have drawbacks in use,
now when using Cooldown and Duration im sure they can be balanced easily,
if so just give those other Clan Lasers +0.5 heat and there balance,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 20 June 2017 - 02:32 PM.

[Dee Eight]

FupDup, on 20 June 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

I think you might have missed how the Clan MPL and LPL both have more damage than IS versions in addition to their range and accuracy, and how both of them share the same damage as their Clan counterparts (CLPL damage = CERLL and CERML damage = CMPL).

No...I didn't...because I have a brain and a lot more experience with this game universe than you clearly do. You're trying to make an apples to oranges comparison that fits your limited experience and illogical reasoning. The comparison is NOT between IS standard and Clan pulse lasers. It is between Clan ER and Pulse lasers.

Quote

It was designed to take up tonnage and critical slots as per mech construction rules, a few mechs have it stock, and in MWO it's going to be used exclusively on mechs. "Not designed for mechs" is an irrelevant argument for this game. And even in TT there's little reason not to use 1-2 Micro Pulse in place of a Small Pulse on any unit that can take it.

As I've explained to you now in two or three other threads.... the micro lasers didn't exist in REAL world time until 1998...eight real years after they introduced the clans to the game in 1990...and in the game timeline....240 years after the clans perfected the ER and Pulse laser versions of the other three sizes. And again...they don't fit the clan tactical strategy for battlemech usage... the ranges are too short except as anti-infantry weapons. They already have MGs and Flamers for that sorta work. They don't need to put micro ER and micro pulse lasers on proper battlemechs. They certainly couldn't use them on stuff when they weren't even invented yet, and then were unique originally to ONE single clan...and developed in secret along with their protomechs.

[FupDup]

Dee Eight, on 20 June 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

No...I didn't...because I have a brain and a lot more experience with this game universe than you clearly do. You're trying to make an apples to oranges comparison that fits your limited experience and illogical reasoning. The comparison is NOT between IS standard and Clan pulse lasers. It is between Clan ER and Pulse lasers.

The reason that IS standards are applicable is because the Clan SPL is the ONLY Clan laser in history that doesn't deal more damage than its IS counterpart. This thus makes it a lot weaker when it gets compared against every other Clan laser that DOES gain bonus damage.

And I still need to point out yet again that the Clan SPL is the ONLY Clan pulse laser that deals LESS damage than the Clan ER laser of the corresponding type. It should've been be dealing 5 damage just like the Clan ERSL.

Dee Eight, on 20 June 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

As I've explained to you now in two or three other threads.... the micro lasers didn't exist in REAL world time until 1998...eight real years after they introduced the clans to the game in 1990...and in the game timeline....240 years after the clans perfected the ER and Pulse laser versions of the other three sizes.

How the hell is this relevant when we're living in the year 2017? It's been a part of the universe almost two freaking decades of real world time. Don't be such a crusty dinosaur.

Dee Eight, on 20 June 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

And again...they don't fit the clan tactical strategy for battlemech usage... the ranges are too short except as anti-infantry weapons. They already have MGs and Flamers for that sorta work. They don't need to put micro ER and micro pulse lasers on proper battlemechs. They certainly couldn't use them on stuff when they weren't even invented yet, and then were unique originally to ONE single clan...and developed in secret along with their protomechs.

When I talk about the applications of weapons, I base their applications off of their actual stats and power (min-maxing). You seem to be thinking of some kind of fluffy exposition flavor text rather than practical game usage. Kind of like when people say "lights are scouts in lore!" when actually it's vastly more cost-effective in both C-Bills and BattleValue to use vehicles or even infantry for the role of pure scouting.

[Dee Eight]

FupDup, on 20 June 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

The reason that IS standards are applicable is because the Clan SPL is the ONLY Clan laser in history that doesn't deal more damage than its IS counterpart. This thus makes it a lot weaker when it gets compared against every other Clan laser that DOES gain bonus damage.

Except...that wasn't the point of pulse lasers...the point was increased accuracy...NOT damage. That prior to the micro laser two did more, was not the goal for creating the weapons and introducing them to the game.

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And I still need to point out yet again that the Clan SPL is the ONLY Clan pulse laser that deals LESS damage than the Clan ER laser of the corresponding type. It should've been be dealing 5 damage just like the Clan ERSL.

No...because everyone familiar with battletech already knew that. We all knew that in the trade offs game... that less damage made sense in comparison to the accuracy improvement...for each range band compared to the clan ER small laser. You clearly never played the tabletop game and thus do not understand why it made perfect sense then.

Quote

How the hell is this relevant when we're living in the year 2017? It's been a part of the universe almost two freaking decades of real world time. Don't be such a crusty dinosaur.

Its relevant...because dufus...when all the famous historical mechs in the game were being created...their designers worked with the technology that was in the game universe at the time. They couldn't very well substitute in components that didn't exist...just because you think they're better years later.

Quote

When I talk about the applications of weapons, I base their applications off of their actual stats and power (min-maxing). You seem to be thinking of some kind of fluffy exposition flavor text rather than practical game usage. Kind of like when people say "lights are scouts in lore!" when actually it's vastly more cost-effective in both C-Bills and BattleValue to use vehicles or even infantry for the role of pure scouting.

No...you base off your limited experience playing THIS game...and that you got used to the cushy values that PGI assigned to them over the years. That is all.

[stealthraccoon]

Firing heavy lasers should cause reticle shake, right?

[Dee Eight]

stealthraccoon, on 20 June 2017 - 03:14 PM, said:

Firing heavy lasers should cause reticle shake, right?

Well they did mess with the electronics in CBT, so presumably yes we'll get shake as well as probably a long arsed duration.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Dee Eight, on 20 June 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

Well they did mess with the electronics in CBT, so presumably yes we'll get shake as well as probably a long arsed duration.

Heavy Heavy Lasers could cause HUD static or loss of radar lock if they wanted to implement this... But many weapons generate more than the 3 heat of a HSL without issue :-)