44 replies to this topic

[Grus]

stealthraccoon, on 20 June 2017 - 03:14 PM, said:

Firing heavy lasers should cause reticle shake, right?

I'll accept this if they bring back knockdown for lightmechs.

[Mister Blastman]

White Knighting is silly and pointless. THIS THREAD IS FAKE NEWS!

A real journalist with integrity would say:

"Good evening, MWO community. This just in from the front lines of the robot wars: heavy small lasers! PGI reports they will deal six damage for three heat. We took a few minutes to see what people thought about this on the streets."

Street Patron 1: "I think it is swell. But... wasn't there another small laser that had the exact same statistics a few weeks ago?"

Street Patron 2: "Same stats, different paint. Meh. Another switcharoo. Wake me when they do something new."

Street Patron 3: "I want my money back!"

"Well, there you have it folks. Consensus says we'll now have the same weapon we used to play with, again. That's right. They simply downgraded the previous weapons to replace them with new weapons that had the same statistics as the old ones. But, on the bright side, they do come with a new pretty color. Otherwise, they're basically the same. As we found from our random walk, many people were miffed by this recent revelation. So, dedicated to nothing but the facts and thorough reporting, we went to the source, a PGI employee. Let's see what they had to say..."

[Identity protected by darkness]

"So, is it true, the new weapons have the same statistics as the old ones?"

"Well, uh, well, umm... heh. I. Wouldn't say that's so."

"It's not so? Aren't the numbers close to the same?"

"Close to. They're not the same."

"But the damage is."

"Well, yes, but..."

"And isn't it true, that PGI has followed a long honored pattern of nerfing existing tech before releasing new tech? Tech such as robots, battlemechs, I think you call them..."

"Sorry, Tom... what were you asking? It's been a long week, pulling all nighters, you know, got to make sure we hit our release dates and promises..."

"That the weapons have been downgraded..."

"What weapons?"

"The new ones..."

"Oh, right. Of course they haven't been downgraded, Tom! They're new weapons, after all. Man, you media men sure are silly."

"But the stats are the same."

"No, they're different--"

"The same--"

"Whoa."

"What?"

"Did you see that? Golden lasers... wow. Far out, man."

"No, I didn't see that--"

"Hey, can I ask a question?"

"Shoot."

"Would you like to buy a mechpack?"

[Scene fades out]

"Well, there you have it folks, straight from the horse's mouth. Oh, and one last thing: In the interview, said informant said they were pulling all nighters, so we secretly followed them one evening to see what that was all about. We'll leave you with this, our final thought, and let you decide."

Edited by Mister Blastman, 20 June 2017 - 03:47 PM.

[FupDup]

Dee Eight, on 20 June 2017 - 03:14 PM, said:

Except...that wasn't the point of pulse lasers...the point was increased accuracy...NOT damage. That prior to the micro laser two did more, was not the goal for creating the weapons and introducing them to the game.

The point of pulse lasers was not to REDUCE your damage either.

Dee Eight, on 20 June 2017 - 03:14 PM, said:

Its relevant...because dufus...when all the famous historical mechs in the game were being created...their designers worked with the technology that was in the game universe at the time. They couldn't very well substitute in components that didn't exist...just because you think they're better years later.

Stop living in the past. We're two decades later and CAN (and will) substitute the new technology whenever we want.

Dee Eight, on 20 June 2017 - 03:14 PM, said:

No...you base off your limited experience playing THIS game...and that you got used to the cushy values that PGI assigned to them over the years. That is all.

I base my experience off of playing Mechwarrior 3, Mechwarrior 4, MWO, MW Living Legends, MW Tactics, and HBS Battletech, as well as anecdotal experience from many TT players on this forum and just comparing the actual weapon values.

Battletech in every single iteration is a game about NUMBERS above all else. Specifically, it's about making sure that your numbers are better than your enemy's numbers. It is absurdly easy to min-max in this IP and find the best ways to accomplish a given task.

And you'd be surprised at how often MWO's meta has mirrored TT's meta (e.g. light mechs being bad, PPCs dominating back in the day, Gauss Rifle being beast, Clan laser vomit, Clans in general being better than the IS, IS SL and SPL being weak, STD engines being inferior to even IS XL, AC/2 and AC/5 being mediocre, low engine mechs usually being worse than moderate to large engine mechs, etc).

Edited by FupDup, 20 June 2017 - 03:32 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

I was under the impression that HSL would probably do 7 damage for 4 heat.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 20 June 2017 - 03:37 PM.

[FupDup]

The6thMessenger, on 20 June 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

I was under the impression that HSL would probably do 7 for 4 damage.

Before the CSPL nerf, yes. After the nerf, 6 damage is possible.

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 20 June 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

Before the CSPL nerf, yes. After the nerf, 6 damage is possible.

I was also under the impression that heavy-lasers achieve this damage via horrendous damage/tick -- long duration.

[FupDup]

The6thMessenger, on 20 June 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

I was also under the impression that heavy-lasers achieve this damage via horrendous damage/tick -- long duration.

I'm expecting the same duration as ER lasers.

[Grus]

The6thMessenger, on 20 June 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

I was also under the impression that heavy-lasers achieve this damage via horrendous damage/tick -- long duration.

there someone said it! (Long duration) so it's going to be much easier to spread that damage than any of the other clan lasers. And unless it has a fast cool down after that long duration it will be easy to out damage a HL vs a Er per say (to a single section of a mech)

Edit: phone did a crazy typo.

Edited by Grus, 20 June 2017 - 03:45 PM.

[JohnnyWayne]

Prosperity Park, on 20 June 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

Like the IS SPL? Oh, I guess the IS SPL should be 6 damage then.

NO, WAIT. The Clan SPL has longer range for the same weight and size, so the IS SPL should do 7 or 8 damage.

Get to Twitter, tell Russ the IS SPL should deal 7 damage.

What kind of random rambling is that. IS SPL doesnt matter either. Locusts are pretty much the only mech that takes them. So yes, buff them to usefulness.

[oldradagast]

I'm confused why the OP thinks nerfing current equipment into the dirt to force people to buy new equipment is a good thing. Objectively, it is not - it's a sloppy, insulting, and heavy-handed way to try to shakedown customers for cash and pays no respect to the Lore that people claim to support around here.

Nobody is leaving specifically because of weapon values, but they may leave because they are sick of having good builds and mechs wrecked just to get them to buy replacement mechs and builds. Not everyone chases the meta - many people have favorite mechs and playstyles that they want to be able to play "good enough" to have fun: constant nerfs to force people to buy "the next great thing" are in complete conflict with that play style. Sure, if you just want to throw cash at the game for the next "pay to win until it's nerfed" mech, this system works fine. But if you want something more from the experience, forget it.

[Grus]

oldradagast, on 20 June 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

I'm confused why the OP thinks nerfing current equipment into the dirt to force people to buy new equipment is a good thing. Objectively, it is not - it's a sloppy, insulting, and heavy-handed way to try to shakedown customers for cash and pays no respect to the Lore that people claim to support around here.

Nobody is leaving specifically because of weapon values, but they may leave because they are sick of having good builds and mechs wrecked just to get them to buy replacement mechs and builds. Not everyone chases the meta - many people have favorite mechs and playstyles that they want to be able to play "good enough" to have fun: constant nerfs to force people to buy "the next great thing" are in complete conflict with that play style. Sure, if you just want to throw cash at the game for the next "pay to win until it's nerfed" mech, this system works fine. But if you want something more from the experience, forget it.

well they have to fund MW5 somehow right? (Sarcasm intensifying)

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 20 June 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

I'm expecting the same duration as ER lasers.

Having the same ton kind of bothers me if that were the case. Heat's easily dissipated, even if it reduces your alpha count before overheating. It also does lower your face-time relative to damage done which is kind of vital in our PPFLD meta. Long duration is the only think i could think of to make the weapons balanced.

[dario03]

The6thMessenger, on 20 June 2017 - 04:26 PM, said:

Having the same ton kind of bothers me if that were the case. Heat's easily dissipated, even if it reduces your alpha count before overheating. It also does lower your face-time relative to damage done which is kind of vital in our PPFLD meta. Long duration is the only think i could think of to make the weapons balanced.

I'm thinking they could be slightly higher. Maybe why we finally got the slight duration buff on the cerll. So something like 0.15s more on each class. Though the other classes do require extra slots compared to the er versions. A heavy medium and heavy large laser are 2 and 3 slots instead of just 1.
Actually why do they call them heavy lasers? Wouldn't something like big lasers, more volume lasers, spacious lasers...make more sense?

Edited by dario03, 20 June 2017 - 04:46 PM.

[Requiemking]

Most likely the HSL will deal 6 damage for up to 6 heat with IS SL range, CERSL duration, and a moderately long cooldown, because, you know, PGI.

[Wil McCullough]

really puts things in context lol.

remember when they said "balance is as close as it's ever been" after looking at the tuk 3 stats?

so guys, meet the new boss heavy laser, same as the boss old pulse laser.

[FupDup]

The6thMessenger, on 20 June 2017 - 04:26 PM, said:

Having the same ton kind of bothers me if that were the case. Heat's easily dissipated, even if it reduces your alpha count before overheating. It also does lower your face-time relative to damage done which is kind of vital in our PPFLD meta. Long duration is the only think i could think of to make the weapons balanced.

Whatever the base heat value is, the Ghost Heat limit on Heavy Beamers should be very very low. Something like 1-2 for HLL, 3 for HML, and 4-5 for HSL depending on exactly what PGI sets the damage values to. That, and the actual Ghost Heat multiplier should also be high so you nearly blow up if you try to exceed the limit.

Longer duration is not really an option for the Heavy LL, because we already saw what happened to the ERLL at just 1.5 seconds or longer even at very long ranges. The Heavy SL, with its super short range, definitely wouldn't be viable if it had more than 1.1 seconds of burn time (current CERSL value). Maybe the Heavy ML could get away with slightly longer than the CERML, but not by much.

[Athom83]

FupDup, on 20 June 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

If you're gonna use TT stats, I'm gonna point out that the Clan Micro Pulse Laser also does 3 damage. For half the tonnage. And less heat. The Micro Wub completely poops all over the newly nerfed Small Wub.

Except that it has half the range. 80m for optimal is cutting it way to close.

[Valhallan]

FupDup, on 20 June 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

The point of pulse lasers was not to REDUCE your damage either.

I base my experience off of playing Mechwarrior 3, Mechwarrior 4, MWO, MW Living Legends, MW Tactics, and HBS Battletech, as well as anecdotal experience from many TT players on this forum and just comparing the actual weapon values.

Battletech in every single iteration is a game about NUMBERS above all else. Specifically, it's about making sure that your numbers are better than your enemy's numbers. It is absurdly easy to min-max in this IP and find the best ways to accomplish a given task.

I do kinda feel a bit for the sane clanners, cuz they got scammed with small pulse (which feels more like starleague retrotech) instead of er-small-pulse (which feels like the appropriate cer-sl counterpart). But uh well actually in TT, MW4 even Mechcommander (can't say for the others) pulse did in fact reduce the raw damage you could put downwind, due to the increased tonnage/reduced alpha damage/increased heat. Though of course this would only matter past a certain gunnery skill level in TT (when that -2 isn't a big deal anymore), and if your playing a poke war in MW4/MC (cuz then the faster recycle means bupkis). For TT and MC which had free build mechlab that increased requirement meant less gunz and so less damage, for MW4 which shares limited hardpoint system the gun flatout did less alpha damage for better dps doing 1.5 dmg .5 sec recycle time 2 tons compared to 2.5 dmg 3 sec recycle time 1 ton. Were they balanced? hell probably not, but what the pulses are now is actually far different compared to how they were originally portrayed in the official IP's.

[QuantumButler]

Prosperity Park, on 20 June 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

Heavy small laser - heat 3, damage 6.

"Waaahhhh, my 3 damage small pulse laser doesn't deal 6 damage anymore"

I am glad you quit the game over this.

See you in a week when you come back without admitting that you screamed and quit like a child flipping a checkerboard over.

Guess what? HSL comes out next month. Don't pretend you didn't know about it.

Yes let's remove stuff from the game before the stuff to replace it is actually in, leaving people without an option for a month or so, quality balancing decisions!

[Angel of Annihilation]

JohnnyWayne, on 20 June 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

100 meter range anyone? Not enough to matter I mean.

Pretty much how I feel. Honestly I think anything less than 200m is too short to really be useful most of the time but power to anyone who can make good use of a weapon with only 100m range because they are a better pilot than I am.