145 replies to this topic

[TheArisen]

MustrumRidcully, on 21 June 2017 - 03:17 AM, said:

They probably won't do it because altering these will alter any stock versions they get into the game. Personally, I think crit slots can easily be dialed down - no one cares if you have a few crit slots empty.

Weight might be more difficult, since mechs are never "underweight".
But then, if the weapon is too heavy for its performance, it could simply be adjusted in range, cooldown or damage to bring its performance up.

Yeah I have to agree that balance has to be done that way but it'd be nice if some of these weapons were more balanced in initial form.

So from what I've read,
- LGauss, no charge & short cooldown, maybe even more range
- HGauss, increase optimal range, holds charge for long time, slow cooldown

[Y E O N N E]

Personally, I don't think the LGauss even needs to lose the charge. IMHO, it wouldn't be a Gauss rifle without it in the context of MWO. And if it disappears, that's just further redundancy with the AC/10. Do I want 10 damage and lousy velocity with heat and moderate reach or do I want 8 damage with stupendous velocity and range with zero heat? I dunno, LGauss seems like it wins more than it loses.

IMHO, LGauss just needs stupendous range, stupendous velocity, and a fast enough cycle rate to significantly out-DPS a single standard Gauss rifle.

Keep the charge.

[Brain Cancer]

LGauss will even allow more potential PPC/gaussing options, if at hit to damage. And definitely a better range to sync up with same. It might also be just light enough for lights to use as a sniper gun without stripping down so much otherwise.

Unless you really need range, you're not gonna want more than one, since a single regular Gauss gets far more punch per ton vs. paired LGauss.

[Metus regem]

The Light Guass I'm in the camp that sees it as a trap, 8dmg/shot for a 12t 5 crit weapon seems like a bad trade, as for the range, well it's about 90m more than a standard Gauss... If I had to take a guess, I think a standard Guass might be still doing more damage 90m past optimal than a light Guass will do at 750m optimal... Granted 16 shots/ton (likely brought up to 20 shots/ton) does seem like an upgrade, but I'm not sure it'll be worth it.... If it does get stuck with a charge, than that will trully push the weapon into the trap catagory.

The HGR on the other hand I see as a bit tricky... Yes only 4 shots/ton (likely brought up to 6 shots/ton), but with a starting damage of 25 in face hugging space (180m) and 20 damage out 330m (60m more than an AC/20) while still pushing 10 damage out to 600. I can see this beast getting a slightly longer charge up than the normal Gauss, her major down side is the requirement of a standard engine in MWO with out a crit reduction to 10 I can see this being a very niche weapon. Should the slots get knocked down to 10, then I can see this becoming a very serious threat to the AC/20.

[Y E O N N E]

Brain Cancer, on 23 June 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

LGauss will even allow more potential PPC/gaussing options, if at hit to damage. And definitely a better range to sync up with same. It might also be just light enough for lights to use as a sniper gun without stripping down so much otherwise.

Unless you really need range, you're not gonna want more than one, since a single regular Gauss gets far more punch per ton vs. paired LGauss.

I actually believe the LGauss is going to pair better with ER Large lasers than PPCs. If it has higher velocity than standard Gauss, it is too disjointed from anything else in the game to comfortably and intuitively synchronize. On an Assault platform, something like three or four ERLL with a pair of LGauss will have a gnarly punch from extreme ranges and you won't have to pull your laser shots to lead that Gauss round as much. The LGauss may also present superior DPS to the standard Gauss to keep enemies at bay while your under-sinked lasers cool off.

I dunno. There's potential here, but it's on a razor wire. The easiest solution would be to just bump it up to 10 damage with longer range and a slightly shorter cool-down to standard Gauss, but I worry about the AC/10. If the AC/10 at least had better velocity than it does, its snap-fire potential would be enough of a reason to choose it on some builds instead of LGauss.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 23 June 2017 - 01:34 PM.

[Alex Morgaine]

TheArisen, on 20 June 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

More than a few people consider these two weapons to be traps. The obvious question then is how to make them worthwhile but not OP?

The LGauss weighs 12t (same as a CGauss) but only does 8 DMG. It has a somewhat greater range though as well as more ammo per ton. Still, 8 DMG for such a heavy & crit eating weapon isn't very appealing. Maybe no charge needed? Faster cooldown?

Heavy Gauss at first glance looks like it'll be scary but it takes so much tonnage & slots along with forcing you to use a heavier std engine it's actually just a paper tiger. It's DMG dropoff is also pretty fast so really you'd be better off using combinations other weapons.

I got plans for both: light gauss on an urbie, maybe a Phoenix hawk, and the heavy on my "freaking can't find a build ghat isn't a duplicate but with masc" cataphract that will both be workable and utilise the masc.

[TheArisen]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 June 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

I actually believe the LGauss is going to pair better with ER Large lasers than PPCs. If it has higher velocity than standard Gauss, it is too disjointed from anything else in the game to comfortably and intuitively synchronize. On an Assault platform, something like three or four ERLL with a pair of LGauss will have a gnarly punch from extreme ranges and you won't have to pull your laser shots to lead that Gauss round as much. The LGauss may also present superior DPS to the standard Gauss to keep enemies at bay while your under-sinked lasers cool off.

I dunno. There's potential here, but it's on a razor wire. The easiest solution would be to just bump it up to 10 damage with longer range and a slightly shorter cool-down to standard Gauss, but I worry about the AC/10. If the AC/10 at least had better velocity than it does, its snap-fire potential would be enough of a reason to choose it on some builds instead of LGauss.

I don't see many AC10 builds around tbh. It could probably use a buff.

The cooldown for LGauss should be quite fast if it retains 8 DMG per shot. Maybe 9 DMG & similar cooldown to AC10? The LGauss is still a gauss so it can explode making it risky for torso mounts with xl.

[Khobai]

MWO has reached the point where its impossible to differentiate weapons because there are too few numerical stats they can actually change to make weapons different.

The best way for PGI to balance weapons moving forward is to add non-stat based abilities to weapons.

For example PPCs could cause HUD disruption. Gauss weapons could pierce armor and get through armor crits (but do less overall damage in exchange for penetrating armor). Missiles could do extra crit/internal structure damage. Autocannons could knock mechs around more. Etc...

By giving weapons non-quantifiable abilities, it makes it impossible to compare two weapons and say with certainty which weapon is the best one; like you can when the only differences between weapons are numeric values. With non-quantifiable abilities, every weapon would be good when used in a specific situation.

Quote

IMHO, LGauss just needs stupendous range, stupendous velocity, and a fast enough cycle rate to significantly out-DPS a single standard Gauss rifle.

Longer range and better velocity sure. But it should definitely not out-dps gauss.

Thats like saying an AC5 should outdps an AC10. nope. thats not how it works.

The bigger and heavier a weapon is the more dps it should do. Otherwise its extra tonnage/crits arnt justified. light gauss weighs less than standard gauss so it shouldnt get better dps, that goes against the whole principle of heavier weapons having better dps than lighter weapons.

light gauss should do around 2.1-2.2 dps (compared to gauss' 2.6 dps), but have better range and better velocity than standard gauss. light gauss should have a shorter charge time too so you can snapfire with it more easily than standard gauss.

Quote

The cooldown for LGauss should be quite fast if it retains 8 DMG per shot

it should have 3.0 cooldown with a 0.5 charge time. That puts its dps at 2.28 which is right around where it should be.

It should also have a 750m range and a 2300m/s velocity.

And it needs to be 10 tons not 12 tons. At 12 tons it will never be a good weapon.

Edited by Khobai, 24 June 2017 - 08:10 AM.

[TheArisen]

Khobai, on 23 June 2017 - 06:25 PM, said:

MWO has reached the point where its impossible to differentiate weapons because there are too few numerical stats they can actually change to make weapons different.

The best way for PGI to balance weapons moving forward is to add non-stat based abilities to weapons.

For example PPCs could cause HUD disruption. Gauss weapons could pierce armor and get through armor crits. Missiles could do extra crit/internal structure damage. Autocannons could knock mechs around more. Etc...

By giving weapons non-quantifiable abilities, it makes it impossible to compare two weapons and say with certainty which weapon is the best one; like you can when the only differences between weapons are numeric values. With non-quantifiable abilities, every weapon would be good when used in a specific situation.



Longer range and better velocity sure. But it should definitely not out-dps gauss.

Thats like saying an AC5 should outdps an AC10. nope. thats not how it works.

The bigger a weapon is the more dps it should do. Otherwise its extra tonnage/crits arnt justified.

light gauss should do around 2.1 dps (compared to gauss' 2.6 dps), but have better range and better velocity than standard gauss.

Well I do like the idea of weapons having non stat abilities to help them but there is value in DPS versus single shot power. Single shot power is better for snap shots & trading. DPS needs to stare to do the DMG. Basically they have advantages in certain circumstances. Look at WoT, some tanks have fast firing dps guns, others slow firing but big DMG guns, etc.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 23 June 2017 - 06:25 PM, said:

It should also have a 750m range and a 2300m/s velocity.

750 meters is not quite enough to distinguish it, even with the higher DPS. Else I should just take a trio of AC/2 and DPS my way to victory.

810 meters.

[Khobai]

Quote

Single shot power is better for snap shots & trading. DPS needs to stare to do the DMG

yeah and gauss should be better than light gauss at both single shot power and dps. because it weighs more.

the only advantage light gauss should get over standard gauss is range and velocity.

and thats consistent with how autocannons work as well. the only real advantage the AC5 gets over the AC10 is range and velocity. the AC10 has better single shot damage and better dps. As it should because its a heavier weapon.

Quote

750 meters is not quite enough to distinguish it, even with the higher DPS

810m is fine.

the main point i was making is that light gauss shouldnt outdps standard gauss.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2017 - 06:54 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 23 June 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

yeah and gauss should be better than light gauss at both single shot power and dps. because it weighs more.

the only advantage light gauss should get over standard gauss is range and velocity.

and thats consistent with how autocannons work as well. the only advantage the AC5 gets over the AC10 is range and velocity.

Increasingly diminished returns for range and velocity above 600 m and 2000 m/s, respectively.

[Khobai]

Quote

Increasingly diminished returns for range and velocity above 600 m and 2000 m/s, respectively.

most weapons have diminished returns on certain maps. lrms for example have diminished returns on maps with lots of cover or against enemy teams with lots of AMS/ECM. lasers have diminished returns on hot maps. SRMs/brawling weapons generally having diminishing returns on maps that are good for sniping like boreal vault. and long range ballistics have diminished returns on maps where you dont have 600m open areas to setup a firing lane.

diminished returns are hardly a problem unique to light gauss. so its ridiculous to treat light gauss as though its the only weapon with that problem.

light gauss will be good on some maps. it will be bad on other maps. thats simply the binary nature of weapons in MWO. but light gauss shouldnt get special treatment for having diminished returns when other weapons dont.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2017 - 07:03 PM.

[TheArisen]

Khobai, on 23 June 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

yeah and gauss should be better than light gauss at both single shot power and dps. because it weighs more.

the only advantage light gauss should get over standard gauss is range and velocity.

and thats consistent with how autocannons work as well. the only real advantage the AC5 gets over the AC10 is range and velocity. the AC10 has better single shot damage and better dps. As it should because its a heavier weapon.



810m is fine.

the main point i was making is that light gauss shouldnt outdps standard gauss.

By your logic clan gauss should be inferior to IS gauss.

[Khobai]

Quote

By your logic clan gauss should be inferior to IS gauss.

correct.

IS vs Clan can never be equally balanced as long as clans get blatantly better tech.

in the case of clan gauss its not even asymmetrically balanced, its just flat out better than IS gauss.

granted IS does have some mechs with pretty strong gauss quirks, but those quirks still dont come close to equalizing the disparity between clan gauss and IS gauss. that 3 ton savings is huge.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2017 - 07:13 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 23 June 2017 - 06:59 PM, said:

most weapons have diminished returns on certain maps. lrms for example have diminished returns on maps with lots of cover or against enemy teams with lots of AMS/ECM. lasers have diminished returns on hot maps. SRMs/brawling weapons generally having diminishing returns on maps that are good for sniping like boreal vault. and long range ballistics have diminished returns on maps where you dont have 600m open areas to setup a firing lane.

diminished returns are hardly a problem unique to light gauss. so its ridiculous to treat light gauss as though its the only weapon with that problem.

light gauss will be good on some maps. it will be bad on other maps. thats simply the binary nature of weapons in MWO. but light gauss shouldnt get special treatment for having diminished returns when other weapons dont.

1. I never said it was a problem unique to Light Gauss, it's a universal pattern
2. This isn't about maps, this is about me deciding it's worth spending 12 tons on Light Gauss instead of 15 tons on standard Gauss if all I get is what amounts to the distance a Flamer can shoot, especially when LGauss will remain a predominantly pokey weapon; it is flat-out not enough for me to choose over standard Gauss, ever, not even on a tonnage-restricted 'Mech like a Blackjack

[Khobai]

Quote

This isn't about maps, this is about me deciding it's worth spending 12 tons on Light Gauss instead of 15 tons on standard Gauss if all I get is what amounts to the distance a Flamer can shoot

the purpose of a light gauss isnt to compete with standard gauss. If you can use standard gauss you should always use standard gauss.

The purpose of light gauss is for mechs that cant use standard gauss to still have a gauss option.

the reality is light gauss cannot and never will compete with standard gauss. because 8 damage vs 15 damage is a no brainer. regardless of any range/velocity advantage the light gauss might have, it will never be enough to make up for the damage difference.

the only real niche of the light gauss is for medium mechs that want a low heat sniping weapon but dont want to sacrifice engine tonnage to take a standard gauss. it will never be a replacement for standard gauss on heavy or assault mechs that use standard gauss.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2017 - 07:31 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 23 June 2017 - 07:20 PM, said:

the purpose of a light gauss isnt to compete with standard gauss. If you can use standard gauss you should always use standard gauss.

The purpose of light gauss is for mechs that cant use standard gauss to still have a gauss option.

The weapon role of "only use it when you lack the tonnage for anything else" always fails. If something is so weak that you don't want to use it when you can go bigger, then it's still so weak that it's simply not worth mounting in the first place.

See examples: Small Laser, SRM2 (outside of maybe a couple of lights), etc.

The Light Goose needs its range advantage to be cranked up a lot higher than just 90 meters. Should be no lower than 800 meters. Velocity could maybe use a bump of like 500 m/s or so for super duper extreme range sniping (which is currently where ERLL reigns supreme because hitscan).

Edited by FupDup, 23 June 2017 - 07:33 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Should be no lower than 800 meters

Even with 900m range there would be almost zero reason to ever use it over a standard gauss. Again its 15 damage vs 8 damage.

The reality is the light gauss cannot compete with the standard gauss.

And because it cant compete with the standard gauss, its relegated to only being used on mechs that cant use standard gauss.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 23 June 2017 - 07:37 PM, said:

Even with 900m range there would be almost zero reason to ever use it over a standard gauss. Again its 15 damage vs 8 damage.

The reality is the light gauss cannot compete with the standard gauss.

And because it cant compete with the standard gauss, its relegated to only being used on mechs that cant use standard gauss.

Mechs that lack the tonnage for normal Goose are probably going to also lack the tonnage for the Light Goose. 12 tons (plus 2-3 tons of ammo) is a lot.