47 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

The6thMessenger, on 23 June 2017 - 02:37 AM, said:

Same problem actually. I think the issue stems largely from the nature of a 100-tonner, being so slow, that you're too slow to get to the fight early, or survive the trip long enough.

Which is why I think my proposed long range build makes more sense than any ML + LBX builds. Range covers for lack of speed.

[Kangarad]

The6thMessenger, on 23 June 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:


Better? Yes. OP? maybe.

I dont think it would be flat out op actualy. it would still be easy to take down. also the hardpoints will still be further appeart than the maulers and youll have to expose alot to poke due to cockpit position. you couldnt even ue the arms if you were to poke, and the kgc unlike any other mech actualy has movement restrictions on maps like river city where it just doesnt fit through places here even the direwolf can clip through.

the KDK's will still be a better choice for long range and atlas will still outtank it (despite currently having lower armour)

it would be better at high mounted ballistics and that would set it appart and give it a niche compared to other is assaults esp, kgc.

Edited by Kangarad, 23 June 2017 - 03:37 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

El Bandito, on 23 June 2017 - 03:31 AM, said:

Which is why I think my proposed long range build makes more sense than any ML + LBX builds. Range covers for lack of speed.

Kinda why i went with 2x UAC5 + LRM20A + 4x ML, 325STD.

Kangarad, on 23 June 2017 - 03:36 AM, said:

I dont think it would be flat out op actualy. it would still be easy to take down. also the hardpoints will still be further appeart than the maulers and youll have to expose alot to poke due to cockpit position. you couldnt even ue the arms if you were to poke, and the kgc unlike any other mech actualy has movement restrictions on maps like river city where it just doesnt fit through places here even the direwolf can clip through.

the KDK's will still be a better choice for long range and atlas will still outtank it (despite currently having lower armour)

it would be better at high mounted ballistics and that would set it appart and give it a niche compared to other is assaults esp, kgc.

Considering that it becomes pay to optimize, and you can do high-mounted ballistic builds that otherwise be harder on the originals, i think a lot would frown to that.

[Kangarad]

The6thMessenger, on 23 June 2017 - 03:45 AM, said:

Kinda why i went with 2x UAC5 + LRM20A + 4x ML, 325STD.



Considering that it becomes pay to optimize, and you can do high-mounted ballistic builds that otherwise be harder on the originals, i think a lot would frown to that.

the only builds that it could actualy do better would be HGR related all others would function the same or could be done better with the other KGCs or Maulers.

[The6thMessenger]

Kangarad, on 23 June 2017 - 03:57 AM, said:

the only builds that it could actualy do better would be HGR related all others would function the same or could be done better with the other KGCs or Maulers.

Arms low-slung, plus wide resulting into bad convergence. High mounted torso ballistic which is actually very close to the cockpit in terms of convergence would make it far better to heavy ballistic.

[Kangarad]

The6thMessenger, on 23 June 2017 - 04:07 AM, said:

Arms low-slung, plus wide resulting into bad convergence. High mounted torso ballistic which is actually very close to the cockpit in terms of convergence would make it far better to heavy ballistic.

yes, but the other variants have way better backup choices for said heavy weapons. also if you go dual gauss + ppc variants you might aswelll use the 0000 which has those high and clustered.

[Gagis]

The Kaiju becoming much better than regular variants if it was symmetric is a fair point, since KGC as a whole is not very good at the moment. It is hindered badly by having some extremely low and wide hardpoints and really bad hitboxes, which is why it gets outclassed by most other assaults.

Anyone with good aim can take out a KGC with embarassing ease and its arms are some of the very worst hardpoint locations in the entire game.

Its just so pretty I still want to try piloting them.

[The6thMessenger]

Kangarad, on 23 June 2017 - 04:11 AM, said:

yes, but the other variants have way better backup choices for said heavy weapons.

Backup choices? The one you proposed can do 6x ML + 2x AC20.

Kangarad, on 23 June 2017 - 04:11 AM, said:

also if you go dual gauss + ppc variants you might aswelll use the 0000 which has those high and clustered.

So? You can also cluster the PPC at the same arm. Sure low-slung, but still equally clustered.

[Kangarad]

The6thMessenger, on 23 June 2017 - 04:19 AM, said:

Backup choices? The one you proposed can do 6x ML + 2x AC20.



So? You can also cluster the PPC at the same arm. Sure low-slung, but still equally clustered.

as in 2uac20 + 4mlas AND 4 srm4 with teh srms being way better damage to heat ratio (or dgauss instead fo 2 ac20 for a more heat efficient build) which can also go xl if needed for more speed while yours is lfe at max only.

and you cant cluser 4 ppcs in one arm since it only has 3 hardpoints each... so 4x hvy or snpcc (which is way to hot without propper heatgen quirks anyway) with a dead shieldside... if you dare.
6mlas + 2ac20 is still pretty hot since you dont have the space for heatsinks and I think uac20 will be hooter than ac20's the same way ac5 are not as hot as uac5

edit: arms also have the effect of not killing your mech on gauss explosion... and 2 hvy gauss on the kgc would be very suicidal.

Edited by Kangarad, 23 June 2017 - 04:28 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Kangarad, on 23 June 2017 - 04:26 AM, said:

as in 2uac20 + 4mlas AND 4 srm4 with teh srms being way better damage to heat ratio (or dgauss instead fo 2 ac20 for a more heat efficient build) which can also go xl if needed for more speed while yours is lfe at max only.

Lol, so what if it has way better damage to heat ratio? Lasers have better sustainability, also has better range. Also being laser on the arms means it can be aimed better, if only not underslung.

Kangarad, on 23 June 2017 - 04:26 AM, said:

and you cant cluser 4 ppcs in one arm since it only has 3 hardpoints each... so 4x hvy or snpcc (which is way to hot without propper heatgen quirks anyway) with a dead shieldside... if you dare.
6mlas + 2ac20 is still pretty hot since you dont have the space for heatsinks and I think uac20 will be hooter than ac20's the same way ac5 are not as hot as uac5

Foreiting the use of XL or LF, in addition of a 4x ppc is not good for a 100 tonner. There's lighter assaults that can do that better. But then are you really weighing the 0000 to a single type of build it could do? The one you proposed can do more than just 4x ppc.

Besides, if 0000 can do 4x ppc anyways, why even get Kaiju for it? Also the meta build for the poker is 2x gauss + 2x ppc, you don't go 4 ppc on a gauss build cause it's too hot for a meta build, and 3 ppc hits GH, and at the same time the meta works by virtue of ppfld.

Also there are many builds that are hot, purposefully. People are okay with hot builds, because they practiced maintaining that heat, and then they can bring out the most of the build.

Kangarad, on 23 June 2017 - 04:26 AM, said:

edit: arms also have the effect of not killing your mech on gauss explosion... and 2 hvy gauss on the kgc would be very suicidal.

So? That sounds like planning for failure. Considering that you can get off gauss shots better, and at the same time being able to hill hump better, that sounds a fair trade.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 June 2017 - 04:53 AM.

[Kangarad]

The6thMessenger, on 23 June 2017 - 04:47 AM, said:

Lol, so what if it has way better damage to heat ratio? Lasers have better sustainability, also has better range. Also being laser on the arms means it can be aimed better, if only not underslung.



Foreiting the use of XL or LF, in addition of a 4x ppc is not good for a 100 tonner. There's lighter assaults that can do that better. But then are you really weighing the 0000 to a single type of build it could do? The one you proposed can do more than just 4x ppc.

Besides, if 0000 can do 4x ppc anyways, why even get Kaiju for it? Also the meta build for the poker is 2x gauss + 2x ppc, you don't go 4 ppc on a gauss build cause it's too hot for a meta build.

Also there are many builds that are hot, purposefully. People are okay with hot builds, because they practiced maintaining that heat, and then they can bring out the most of the build.



So? That sounds like planning for failure. Considering that you can get off gauss shots better, and at the same time being able to hill hump better, that sounds a fair trade.

as in your fockin explode. if you use the 6 er ppc build teh kaiju could do you die to voer heat no matter what. you cant even direstar in it. every otehr kgc variant has way higher alpha potential than the kajui just because of teh split ballistic points, because ballistics are way bigger than lasers.

[Savage Wolf]

New build:

6 x MPL, 2 x AC5, XL360, rest is DHS. Works resonably well and has managable heat. And XL in a KGC? Why not? If someone aimed for your ST, they would somehow still hit your CT anyway.

[The6thMessenger]

Kangarad, on 23 June 2017 - 04:54 AM, said:

as in your fockin explode.

Not spontaneously. A pilot can minimize that, or actually do meaningful damage before going down. And because of the highmount, it can do better. That's also just one aspect, it doesn't need to use gauss, it can go 2x AC10 too, that explosion is just a small aspect.

Kangarad, on 23 June 2017 - 04:54 AM, said:

if you use the 6 er ppc build teh kaiju could do you die to voer heat no matter what. you cant even direstar in it. every otehr kgc variant has way higher alpha potential than the kajui just because of teh split ballistic points, because ballistics are way bigger than lasers.

Oh, so you measure it's worth by boating PPCs? Really? it can't direstar therefore it's a bad variant?

Guess what, i don't have to use 6x PPC. I can also choose to do 3x LPL or 3x LL on each arm.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 June 2017 - 05:05 AM.

[Gagis]

Now testing: STD335, 6x MPL, AC20, 2x ASRM6

Range is pathetic, but the brawl alpha is real.

[Kangarad]

The6thMessenger, on 23 June 2017 - 05:03 AM, said:

Not spontaneously. A pilot can minimize that, or actually do meaningful damage before going down. And because of the highmount, it can do better. That's also just one aspect, it doesn't need to use gauss, it can go 2x AC10 too, that explosion is just a small aspect.



Oh, so you measure it's worth by boating PPCs? Really? it can't direstar therefore it's a bad variant?

Guess what, i don't have to use 6x PPC. I can also choose to do 3x LPL or 3x LL on each arm.

3lpl 3 ll is still very hot compared to what other assaults can do with those. if you go 3lpl + 2 lbx 10 you might aswell go banshee, if you try ac20+ srms you go Atlas if its lurms/smrs with lasers you go cyclops or stalker

If its pure energy/ppcs you go stalker

if its pure ballistics you go mauler or other kgc variant
splitting teh ballistics slots wont hcange that actualy.

[The6thMessenger]

Kangarad, on 23 June 2017 - 05:14 AM, said:

3lpl 3 ll is still very hot compared to what other assaults can do with those. if you go 3lpl + 2 lbx 10 you might aswell go banshee, if you try ac20+ srms you go Atlas if its lurms/smrs with lasers you go cyclops or stalker

If its pure energy/ppcs you go stalker

if its pure ballistics you go mauler or other kgc variant
splitting teh ballistics slots wont hcange that actualy.

But weren't we talking about variants, and why the 2x high mounts for 2 major ballistic weapons are pay to optimize and better than the rest of the king crab variants?

And again so what if it's hot? There's lots of builds that are hot. Playstyles just differ.

No it will. The kaiju being able to have two high mounted ballistic would make it the best ballistic variant. Yes splitting would change the current Kaiju.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 June 2017 - 05:21 AM.

[Gagis]

They would be pay to optimize if they were split between 2 torsos, yes, since all variants of the King Crab are pretty bad. Other assaults would still be better than the Kaiju.

[Kangarad]

The6thMessenger, on 23 June 2017 - 05:19 AM, said:

But weren't we talking about variants, and why the 2x high mounts for 2 major ballistic weapons are pay to optimize and better than the rest of the king crab variants?

And again so what if it's hot? There's lots of builds that are hot. Playstyles just differ.

No it will. The kaiju being able to have two high mounted ballistic would make it the best ballistic variant. Yes splitting would change the current Kaiju.

no it would not... uacs racs and normal gauss would still be better on normal variants. it just doesnt have the hardpoint numberto support ballistics boating. 2 ac20s/uac20s ? I can mount that high on a 65 tonner too.
and 2hvgr is a joke build realy... and if we get crit splitting or be allowed to put that in arms then the mauler/other kgc variants are actualy better due to not going boom the second those get critted out. yes the kajui would be different and stronger than now, but have you actualy got a build that can reliably do 600+ damage without just spreading that allover with lurms? I havent. and It realy feels bad to me that I just cant get this kgc to work right or even have a game with more than 700 damage at all. (tho I do get backstabbed by lights and or teammates alot in it....)


on the hot comment... most mech builds that are hot actualy have the space to take heatsinks to compensate and or are fast enough to move somewhere to cool or can reliably poke with em.

the kj energy hardpoints and it being unable to disperse the heat of the size of weapons it can potentialy carry just dont work out.

Edited by Kangarad, 23 June 2017 - 05:30 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Kangarad, on 23 June 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

no it would not... uacs racs and normal gauss would still be better on normal variants. it just doesnt have the hardpoint numberto support ballistics boating. 2 ac20s/uac20s ? I can mount that high on a 65 tonner too.
and 2hvgr is a joke build realy... and if we get crit splitting or be allowed to put that in arms then the mauler/other kgc variants are actualy better due to not going boom the second those get critted out. yes the kajui would be different and stronger than now, but have you actualy got a build that can reliably do 600+ damage without just spreading that allover with lurms? I havent. and It realy feels bad to me that I just cant get this kgc to work right or even have a game with more than 700 damage at all. (tho I do get backstabbed by lights and or teammates alot in it....)

Considering the meta, yeah the 2x highmount gauss is actually far better.

Also don't change the subject, we know that Kaiju right now is in a bad spot, but that's no excuse in making it pay-to-optimize. Our discussion is not whether Kaiju is in a good place, its about your suggestion of ballistic on both side torso is pay-to-optimize.

Also again with the explosion, what is that PTSD or something? It's a small aspect, the high mount outweighs such a small disadvantage.

Kangarad, on 23 June 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

on the hot comment... most mech builds that are hot actualy have the space to take heatsinks to compensate and or are fast enough to move somewhere to cool or can reliably poke with em.

the kj energy hardpoints and it being unable to disperse the heat of the size of weapons it can potentialy carry just dont work out.

Also those that goes hot build carefully manage their heat.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 June 2017 - 05:33 AM.

[Kangarad]

The6thMessenger, on 23 June 2017 - 05:30 AM, said:

Considering the meta, yeah the 2x highmount gauss is actually far better.

Also don't change the subject, we know that Kaiju right now is in a bad spot, but that's no excuse in making it pay-to-optimize. Our discussion is not whether Kaiju is in a good place, its about your suggestion of ballistic on both side torso is pay-to-optimize.

Also again with the explosion, what is that PTSD or something? It's a small aspect, the high mount outweighs such a small disadvantage.



Also those that goes hot build carefully manage their heat.

you can't mount 2 gauss and an xl with the almost guaranteed crit out and explosion, and you can't bring a high alpha due to hardpoint setup. and for energy your better of with a samller mech like the battlemaster unless we get god quirks... and I'd rather have it changed so that it doesnt need god quirks to become reliable. (then again I got an xl guass k2... and it explodes all the time just like my 2 gauss HBK...)

but if you find away that doesnt require to quirk it to high hell or a build that can be played reliable without having to hope to encounter noobs id be listening.