34 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Yup, you're right Mischief. The Inner Sphere Large Laser and Small Pulse Laser were extreme OP meta power creep that needed to be toned down. They made the TTK way too low and ruined muh Battletechs.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Deathlike, on 21 June 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

What exactly did the IS get buffed in...

Lets see.

Chassis-wide buffs to the King Crab and Firestarter, and significant buffs to the Urbanmech, and minor buffs to variants of the Mauler, Grasshopper, Zeus, Panther, and Enforcer. Black Knight rebalanced and structure quirks swapped for armor.

Tech-wide nerf to Clan lasers and tech-wide buffs to IS lasers (except LPL and SPL).

Targeted nerfs to the Night Gyr, MAD-IIC chassis, and nerfs of varying severity to five IS variants.

I don't have any idea how you can see it as a net loss for IS, just because the Huntsman escaped a nerf (which is about the best a Clan mech could hope for this patch), when IS saw significant buffs almost across the board except for the literal handful of top-performing variants.

Suggesting IS is worse off because the BLR-2C and GHR-5P were nerfed isn't how a meta works. These mechs didn't get nerfed in a fish bowl.

I just don't know how you can see it as a net loss for IS....

[MischiefSC]

FireStoat, on 21 June 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

I'd just like to politely say that this is exactly what the community is about to face again in the form of the Madcat Mk II, only this time around the mech will have a much longer delay before it's available for Cbills and the normal intended nerf cycle for it. I'm assuming you won't find this acceptable as per your view on the MAD IIC, so what is your suggestion for players that didn't sink 20 dollars into the latest pay-to-win?

I suspect it'll start with low mobility or fewer mounts than the MAD IIC. If not, then yeah. It may be OP for a bit until it gets nerfed. Thus just how PGI makes their money, and if there's one thing we've made clear to PGI it's that we'll happily buy OP mechs before we'll buy balanced ones.

We may yell about P2W, but we will absolutely support it - then rage when it gets nerfed down to average. Hey, we we pay cash for an advantage, we expect that advantage to stay bought, right?

[MischiefSC]

FupDup, on 21 June 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:

Yup, you're right Mischief. The Inner Sphere Large Laser and Small Pulse Laser were extreme OP meta power creep that needed to be toned down. They made the TTK way too low and ruined muh Battletechs.

I'm detecting sarcasm.

So, once again, not all the weapon nerfs were good. I think the CSPL was over the top and the LL didn't need a nerf, the LPL did to make the LL worth more for the relative weight difference.

The MAD IIC? Gyr? BLR 2C, overall laservomit nerfs? That the skill tree tones down total refire rate, quirks rolled back, mobility desync?

Yeah. Needed. Varying in degree needed and maybe not the idea nerf to take but nerfs in general are due.

[Deathlike]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 21 June 2017 - 05:23 PM, said:

Lets see.

Chassis-wide buffs to the King Crab and Firestarter, and significant buffs to the Urbanmech, and minor buffs to variants of the Mauler, Grasshopper, Zeus, Panther, and Enforcer. Black Knight rebalanced and structure quirks swapped for armor.

King Crabs have their own issues (mostly shape, which affects dakka convergence the most) so it'll still be irrelevant. Firestarter was oversized for one too many patches (probably a year+), and I'm unsure if those buffs are enough. Grasshopper-5P didn't get buffed (straight up structure nerfs). Black Knights actually need heat gen quirks naturally (ontop of what they have) IN ADDITION to the structure/armor buffs due to part of the resizing (see Firestarter). Also, Enforcer did get nerfs too.

Pretty much a lot of the irrelevant mechs that were irrelevant before are a little less bad. That's a lot of meh.

Quote

Tech-wide nerf to Clan lasers and tech-wide buffs to IS lasers (except LPL and SPL).

Targeted nerfs to the Night Gyr, MAD-IIC chassis, and nerfs of varying severity to five IS variants.

I don't have any idea how you can see it as a net loss for IS, just because the Huntsman escaped a nerf (which is about the best a Clan mech could hope for this patch), when IS saw significant buffs almost across the board except for the literal handful of top-performing variants.

Suggesting IS is worse off because the BLR-2C and GHR-5P were nerfed isn't how a meta works. These mechs didn't get nerfed in a fish bowl.

I just don't know how you can see it as a net loss for IS....

Probably used the wrong word (more like the results still favor Clan more), but the IS didn't fare better despite the CSPL being a major negative change.

Many of the IS options that got nerfs, well, they were the only real meta/comp options (there were more legit Clan options). It's still easier to name a solid Clan mech post-nerf vs a solid IS mech that competes with the Clans.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 21 June 2017 - 05:49 PM, said:

King Crabs have their own issues (mostly shape, which affects dakka convergence the most) so it'll still be irrelevant. Firestarter was oversized for one too many patches (probably a year+), and I'm unsure if those buffs are enough. Grasshopper-5P didn't get buffed (straight up structure nerfs). Black Knights actually need heat gen quirks naturally (ontop of what they have) IN ADDITION to the structure/armor buffs due to part of the resizing (see Firestarter). Also, Enforcer did get nerfs too.

Pretty much a lot of the irrelevant mechs that were irrelevant before are a little less bad. That's a lot of meh.



Probably used the wrong word (more like the results still favor Clan more), but the IS didn't fare better despite the CSPL being a major negative change.

Many of the IS options that got nerfs, well, they were the only real meta/comp options (there were more legit Clan options). It's still easier to name a solid Clan mech post-nerf vs a solid IS mech that competes with the Clans.

I feel like these nerfs were done with the new tech in mind. I'm willing to wait for the new tech before I start raging.

Don't discount the Bushie. 6x srm6 with a STD engine and moving over 80. Wait for LFE. IS SRMs > Clan SRMs and the Bushie is tanky AF. With LFE I would be able to go Artemis on all of them and pay the IS Scrub Tax on CASE if needed. At that point I would take it vs a Huntsman based on almost 30% more armor/structure for a comparable loadout and speed.

Edited by MischiefSC, 21 June 2017 - 06:10 PM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Deathlike, on 21 June 2017 - 05:49 PM, said:

Grasshopper-5P didn't get buffed (straight up structure nerfs). Also, Enforcer did get nerfs too.

Pretty much a lot of the irrelevant mechs that were irrelevant before are a little less bad. That's a lot of meh.

Many of the IS options that got nerfs, well, they were the only real meta/comp options (there were more legit Clan options). It's still easier to name a solid Clan mech post-nerf vs a solid IS mech that competes with the Clans.

Grasshopper 5J picked up CT and ST armor
Enforcer 5D got laser duration and increased mobility.

Thing is that very little at the top levels came through this patch unscathed. What's left on Clan, really? We covered the Huntsman. HBK-IIC and what else?

I'll also rephrase- I think it's just too early to make sweeping generalizations about how the meta was effected. The energy change was substantial and who actually lost more out of it will probably be hashed out over the next couple weeks.

I do believe that for the majority of the IS playerbase, flattening out the performance between variants is a needed quality of life improvement. At competitive levels this doesn't matter, but it's not reasonable to expect an average or casual player to be able to follow the handful of top-tier variants from patch to patch so they don't get stuck with one of the dozens of boat anchor mechs that have been left behind by powercreep.

[AssaultPig]

the problem isn't nerfs, it's that they're nerfing the wrong things and too severely besides

like, how anybody looked at the landscape of weapon balance and went 'yep, small lasers, that's the problem that needs addressed' buggers understanding

[FireStoat]

MischiefSC, on 21 June 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

We may yell about P2W, but we will absolutely support it - then rage when it gets nerfed down to average. Hey, we we pay cash for an advantage, we expect that advantage to stay bought, right?

Interesting. You lead off the post thread with a personal point of view when it seems to be comfortable to do so, and then when asked to direct that personal viewpoint to a closer point of the topic, your point of view ceases to be personal but expands out to the general player base.
Seek a job in the political workplace. You'll go far.

[Deathlike]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 21 June 2017 - 06:15 PM, said:

Grasshopper 5J picked up CT and ST armor
Enforcer 5D got laser duration and increased mobility.

5J's been the worst Grasshopper variant for a long time now... and that's the Resistance variant too.
4R was the most useful/serious of Enforcers and that got nerfed IIRC.

Quote

Thing is that very little at the top levels came through this patch unscathed. What's left on Clan, really? We covered the Huntsman. HBK-IIC and what else?

Novas to a lesser degree.

Quote

I'll also rephrase- I think it's just too early to make sweeping generalizations about how the meta was effected. The energy change was substantial and who actually lost more out of it will probably be hashed out over the next couple weeks.

It's easier to pick out the mechs most affected by the CSPL change (pretty much anything that can collect all the Energy hardpoints).

Quote

I do believe that for the majority of the IS playerbase, flattening out the performance between variants is a needed quality of life improvement. At competitive levels this doesn't matter, but it's not reasonable to expect an average or casual player to be able to follow the handful of top-tier variants from patch to patch so they don't get stuck with one of the dozens of boat anchor mechs that have been left behind by powercreep.

A lot of the already mediocre IS mechs are staying mediocre. If anything, no IS heavy mech stands out, and Clan mechs (not just heavies) still have the upper hand with Clan XL (even if the Clan mechs are a bit mediocre as a whole from the change).

[El Bandito]

Well said, OP. It is time to dial back three years worth of powercreep under Paul's misguided effort.

Just the fact previously fine mechs now require ridiculously big durability quirk to stay relevant highlights how far the powercreeo has come.

[MischiefSC]

FireStoat, on 21 June 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

Interesting. You lead off the post thread with a personal point of view when it seems to be comfortable to do so, and then when asked to direct that personal viewpoint to a closer point of the topic, your point of view ceases to be personal but expands out to the general player base.
Seek a job in the political workplace. You'll go far.

No, I answered with my personal opinion and then a generalization about how we, as a player base, handles the edge of P2W that's here. My personal opinion is that the Mad Cat Mk II will start out nerfed. It should. However, if it doesn't we as a community have made it clear we'll still snap it up and then complain when it does get normalized.

See the difference?

AssaultPig, on 21 June 2017 - 06:15 PM, said:

the problem isn't nerfs, it's that they're nerfing the wrong things and too severely besides

like, how anybody looked at the landscape of weapon balance and went 'yep, small lasers, that's the problem that needs addressed' buggers understanding

CSPLs needed nerfed and when that happened (a bit over-much) they also nerfed CERMSLs a tad in passing. They tried to normalize heat and damage without really looking at how and why people use lasers.

However they altered a lot more than small lasers. ERLLs got changed, both IS and Clan, pretty significantly. IS MLs just got a pretty solid buff and IS LPLs didn't get anything like the nerf they needed (still 0.66 burn time). So laservomit between IS and Clan is suddenly closer than it's ever been.

What's more telling is that you look at all the changes, and there were a lot both to lasers and mechs, and all you see is that small lasers got a nerf. Least important thing in the patch. CSPLs? Sure. It was wonky to nerf IS Smalls and SPLs but not particularly relevant. It would be like a 5% spread increase to Clan LB5X. Pointless, sure, but nobody was using them anyway.

[LordNothing]

nerfs do not bother me that much. they apply to everyone and were all still on equal footing tech wise. its going to break some builds and enhance others. but thats not a big issue. like when that mwll ce came out, you go over there and the first thing you notice are the epic cool downs times, its like everything is slower than mwo. i certainly didnt notice things get faster when i picked up mwo when the original mwll run ended. mwo had simply gained a lot of pace over the years. with the nerfs fights in general have been better than they have ever been. poking is much less suicidal now, people are getting out behind the rocks and shooting the enemies more. things are actually improving.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 June 2017 - 09:50 PM.

[AssaultPig]

MischiefSC, on 21 June 2017 - 09:07 PM, said:

No, I answered with my personal opinion and then a generalization about how we, as a player base, handles the edge of P2W that's here. My personal opinion is that the Mad Cat Mk II will start out nerfed. It should. However, if it doesn't we as a community have made it clear we'll still snap it up and then complain when it does get normalized.

See the difference?



CSPLs needed nerfed and when that happened (a bit over-much) they also nerfed CERMSLs a tad in passing. They tried to normalize heat and damage without really looking at how and why people use lasers.

However they altered a lot more than small lasers. ERLLs got changed, both IS and Clan, pretty significantly. IS MLs just got a pretty solid buff and IS LPLs didn't get anything like the nerf they needed (still 0.66 burn time). So laservomit between IS and Clan is suddenly closer than it's ever been.

What's more telling is that you look at all the changes, and there were a lot both to lasers and mechs, and all you see is that small lasers got a nerf. Least important thing in the patch. CSPLs? Sure. It was wonky to nerf IS Smalls and SPLs but not particularly relevant. It would be like a 5% spread increase to Clan LB5X. Pointless, sure, but nobody was using them anyway.

funny story, I am capable of talking about one change without simultaneously denying the existence of other changes

I don't think use of brawling weapons needs to be disincentivized any more than it already is, or that people need more incentive not to play lights

[Jman5]

There were a lot of balance changes this patch, so I can't really label the entire thing as either great or a disaster. I also don't really understand yet how this is all going to fit into the new tech that's coming shortly.

Some of my thoughts on weapon changes.

Cooldowns:
Any cooldown increases aren't really a big deal. With these energy weapons heat is the limiter in DPS. Having to wait half a second longer between shots isn't going to kill your builds. In fact, you might find it makes it a little easier to manage your heat. Also remember that the longer the cooldown the bigger the impact those cooldown skills will have.

Beam Duration:
Those 0.05 - 0.1 beam duration increases are also probably going to be negligible. You might notice the ER LL beam duration reduction because it was a bigger difference. Personally, with the beam duration skills, I didn't.

Damage:
The damage nerfs will probably be felt though. From 6 to 4 is a pretty big hit for C SPL. Personally, I would have rather they brought the IS smalls up, but I agree with some others that this is being done to make room for the new tech. Whatever the case they probably ought to look at the heat scale on these weapons. The other weapons that got damage nerfs, you will probably notice a small drop in overall damage.

Heat:
The heat reduction on lasers will also be felt. Everyone's moaning about nerfs, but this was a major buff to some important weapons this patch. IS Smalls, Mediums, Medium Pulse, Clan Medium Pulse, and Clan SPL all had major heat reductions. While the C SPL buff is overshadowed by the major damage nerf, it's still important. For a lot of builds this basically translates into being able to equip an extra laser, or putting heatsink tonnage toward another gun. This translates into more damage potential.

For my Hunchback 4P, which I've been running a lot lately, I swapped a heatsink for another medium laser and my damage has gone up noticeably.

Heat increase on LRM 5s is gonna hurt those builds a lot. /everyone claps

Edited by Jman5, 22 June 2017 - 07:24 AM.