53 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

For the longest time the way Target Decay Module seemed to work against Radar Deprivation was that the two would essentially cancel each other out. Target Decay basically doubled your lock time, radar deprivation would remove the default lock time, and the result is you would be back at the default lock loss time (or close to it).

This was an important part of the escalating balance between LRMs and Counter LRMs that worked out fairly if both sides were matched.

Since the skill tree though, a fully skilled Radar Deprivation results in players losing lock almost instantly no matter how many points they have sunk in Target Decay.

I know LRMs aren't exactly popular around here but this is a huge nerf them. It changes the dynamic so that target decay is completely useless against any mech with radar deprivation. The only saving grace right now is the fact that most people are too cheap with their skill points to invest down the sensor tree.

So either Radar Deprivation is completely hard countering Target Decay, or Target decay isn't working. Either way, the balance has been disrupted and needs to be addressed.

Edited by Jman5, 19 June 2017 - 12:31 PM.

[Deathlike]

I had kinda wanted to inquire about that, due to how things were worded.

If that is the case, it only confirmed what I thought was the mechanical behavior due to the skill tree changes.

Yes, skill tree indirectly nerfed LRMs more (as long as you commit a fair chunk of points to do so - 16 for all radar derp nodes, +3 more to get 200m of Seismic).

It's also why I get Sensor Range over Target Decay (except for the mandatory one before the right tree's side Seismic).

Edited by Deathlike, 19 June 2017 - 11:22 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Personally i would like to see lrms buffed into some usable state. They just need to remove shared locks with anything but narcs.

If they did this radar derp could stay where it is.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 19 June 2017 - 11:22 AM.

[Brizna]

OP is right in the narrow picture but wrong in broad picture. It's true that Radar Deprivation is stronger now but it is also far more costly, specially when compared to those things you have to give up in order to equip radar deprivation. Make it any worse adn it will terribly suck. As it is the sensor tree is already pretty bad in usefulness / cost.

[Burke IV]

Cry babys finally got LRMs nerfed to the point of none existance. PGI was dumb for listening to them.

[Deathlike]

Burke IV, on 19 June 2017 - 11:35 AM, said:

Cry babys finally got LRMs nerfed to the point of none existance. PGI was dumb for listening to them.

To be fair, there was no point that LRMs were actually good in the game, outside of the Lurmaggeddons that were a Festivus of Missiles.

[Jman5]

Brizna, on 19 June 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

OP is right in the narrow picture but wrong in broad picture. It's true that Radar Deprivation is stronger now but it is also far more costly, specially when compared to those things you have to give up in order to equip radar deprivation. Make it any worse adn it will terribly suck. As it is the sensor tree is already pretty bad in usefulness / cost.

It takes more points but it's not much more costly.

13 10 points to fully unlock all Target Decay, and 0 radar dep
16 points to fully unlock all Radar Deprivation and 2 target decay. Or you can just put 9 points in for 3/5 radar deprivation.

Remember people investing in Target decay are also giving things up to go down that tree.

Edited by Jman5, 19 June 2017 - 12:02 PM.

[Deathlike]

Jman5, on 19 June 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

It takes more points but it's not much more costly.

13 points to fully unlock all Target Decay, and 0 radar dep
16 points to fully unlock all Radar Deprivation and 2 target decay.

Remember people investing in Target decay are also giving things up to go down that tree.

You can get all the Target Decay in 10.
https://kitlaan.gitl...ensor%20Systems

[Jman5]

Deathlike, on 19 June 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

You can get all the Target Decay in 10.
https://kitlaan.gitl...ensor%20Systems

Ah thanks. I always get seismic and some radar dep while I'm down there so I didn't notice how much you can cut it. Still though, you can get 3/5 of radar deprivation with just 9 skills, which isn't so bad.

Edited by Jman5, 19 June 2017 - 11:59 AM.

[Brizna]

Deathlike, on 19 June 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

You can get all the Target Decay in 10.
https://kitlaan.gitl...ensor%20Systems

Meanwhile in the fire power tree I can get 8% range and some CD with 10 points.

Sensor tree is only useful for PUging, as long as you are in a team you seismic sensors are your team mates at 0 points cost (might cost some sanity though ) and your AMS is team push in to the lurmers.

[Ced Riggs]

Radar Derp module was 100%, wasn't it?

[Mechteric]

Even before skill tree the radar derp module made having target decay useless. It always should have been balanced in a way they cancel each out rather than making one more effective than the other.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 19 June 2017 - 12:04 PM.

[Palfatreos]

So i am not fmailiar how old system work but far i understand was.

standerd 2 sec lock decay.
Radar no target = insta loss lock
target no radar = 3.5 sec
rardar + target = 2 sec

ST system
Full target no radar (10 SP)= 2 + 3.5 = 5.5 sec
Full radar (16 SP)= insta loss no matter how many decay
60% (9SP) radar full target decay = 5.5 - 5.5*60% = 2.2 sec

so the extreem are more wider then before but it does cost more SP to get max radr vs target also not evrybody runs full radar. with 9 sp the 60% radar vs 10 10 sp full target it close to the old system with similiard sp cost. So i dont see the imbalance tbh.

[Jman5]

Ced Riggs, on 19 June 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

Radar Derp module was 100%, wasn't it?

It was -100% of the base lock time, but It didn't seem to impact the time you gained from Target Decay module. Or it was vice versa.

Now it seems to be -100% off everything, which breaks the balance badly for people who invest in Target Decay skills.

[Jman5]

Palfatreos, on 19 June 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

So i am not fmailiar how old system work but far i understand was.

standerd 2 sec lock decay.
Radar no target = insta loss lock
target no radar = 3.5 sec
rardar + target = 2 sec

ST system
Full target no radar (10 SP)= 2 + 3.5 = 5.5 sec
Full radar (16 SP)= insta loss no matter how many decay
60% (9SP) radar full target decay = 5.5 - 5.5*60% = 2.2 sec

so the extreem are more wider then before but it does cost more SP to get max radr vs target also not evrybody runs full radar. with 9 sp the 60% radar vs 10 10 sp full target it close to the old system with similiard sp cost. So i dont see the imbalance tbh.

That's about right. While it seems that it's fair because of the extra skill investment cost, there is no counterplay for the LRM user to even the score.

I noticed this yesterday when I was playing against someone with a full Radar Deprivation skillset. I had Artemis, TAG, full target decay my own locks, but I just could not hit this guy even from close up because the lock would go too fast.

For me the number of points isn't the main issue. It's that there isn't anywhere else for me to go to make my LRMs on par with his radar deprivation. We can debate whether or not the costs to fully up target decay and the cost to fully up radar dep should be equal. I just think the balance should be so that Level 5 target Decay and Level 5 Radar Deprivation basically cancel each other out. That's how it was for the longest time and it worked well.

[Deathlike]

Jman5, on 19 June 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

That's about right. While it seems that it's fair because of the extra skill investment cost, there is no counterplay for the LRM user to even the score.

I noticed this yesterday when I was playing against someone with a full Radar Deprivation skillset. I had Artemis, TAG, full target decay my own locks, but I just could not hit this guy even from close up because the lock would go too fast.

For me the number of points isn't the main issue. It's that there isn't anywhere else for me to go to make my LRMs on par with his radar deprivation. We can debate whether or not the costs to fully up target decay and the cost to fully up radar dep should be equal. I just think the balance should be so that Level 5 target Decay and Level 5 Radar Deprivation basically cancel each other out. That's how it was for the longest time and it worked well.

An appropriate "nerf" would actually to be reduce the Radar Derp's node effectiveness from 20% to like 15% or some lower number. A lot of the other nodes for effectiveness (like Adv Gyros) still keep to some (lame shake) limit even if you collect all the nodes. That would be a way to accomplish that.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 June 2017 - 12:38 PM.

[Palfatreos]

Jman5, on 19 June 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

That's about right. While it seems that it's fair because of the extra skill investment cost, there is no counterplay for the LRM user to even the score.

I noticed this yesterday when I was playing against someone with a full Radar Deprivation skillset. I had Artemis, TAG, full target decay my own locks, but I just could not hit this guy even from close up because the lock would go too fast.

For me the number of points isn't the main issue. It's that there isn't anywhere else for me to go to make my LRMs on par with his radar deprivation. We can debate whether or not the costs to fully up target decay and the cost to fully up radar dep should be equal. I just think the balance should be so that Level 5 target Decay and Level 5 Radar Deprivation basically cancel each other out. That's how it was for the longest time and it worked well.

I am the guy who doesn't run radar even in QP match so if radar/target decay get same sp cost + the nodes ar both +- 0.3 Sec instead like 0.7 and 20% it a win for me .

that being said i am already adjusted my playstyle to the new system so whatever happens i am fine either.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Jman5, on 19 June 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

It takes more points but it's not much more costly.

13 10 points to fully unlock all Target Decay, and 0 radar dep
16 points to fully unlock all Radar Deprivation and 2 target decay. Or you can just put 9 points in for 3/5 radar deprivation.

Remember people investing in Target decay are also giving things up to go down that tree.

So?

Radar derp is used for absolutely everything regarding locking and sighting a mech.

Decay is used for LRMs.

If derp costs more to fully slot out its because its more useful.

[PhoenixFire55]

TBH I fully enjoy that almost no mechs on the field has either. This is how it is supposed to be.

[JC Daxion]

I honestly think there is some sorta target decay bug going around..

I loose lock on things when i am looking right at them and have my own LOS..


And no Target Decay is NOT just for LRM's, It can also be used in other mechs, like flankers/hunters to know where mechs are when you are chasing them. Also Streaks, but they get affected by the loss of LOS a bit less.

at any rate, I really think there is a bug happening.