126 replies to this topic

[Gwei Loong]

The Locust, Commando, Artic Cheetah and Spider seem to be giving a lot of players some trouble. There may be a few others but I find these mechs in particular cause many members of our community a lot frustration.
You’ll often see a Locust or a Commando run feely through an enemy team without a care in world. I hear people in my groups complain about not being able to hit them or that the hit boxes on these mechs aren’t registering correctly.
Now with the recent engine desync, decreased torso twist, and increased TTK I see more people have difficulty aiming at such small and fast moving targets. Combine this with the ability to carry multiple arty strikes and we have an elephant in the room no one is willing to talk about.
It is true that perhaps these mechs are too small. I bet if we look at the data and we compared the lights I have mentioned to the rest of them we’d find that they are over performing.
Why are they over performing though? Is it possible that they are too small and we need to make them larger so that they are easier for everyone to hit.
I have heard many people over the past few weeks rage about the fact that they got attacked by a Locust and got killed while piloting an assault.
There is also a recent post on R/MWO about a Spider that did 1100 dmg in one match. That’s more than twice as much as any other member of his party.
I am not going to say that all light mechs are OP but a few of them are defiantly outperforming the rest and I think they need to be resized and made larger. It’s bad enough trying to focus on something so small but then when you do finally zoom in on an Artic Cheetah to get that perfect shot but it starts spamming its jump jets I see to many people who are struggling to hit what they are aiming for.
The simple solution is to just make these mechs a lot bigger. By doing this I think it will help improve the game in two ways. Frist off it will make it easier for people to see because we all know what it’s like to have a Locust run up underneath you and secondly it should help to improve hit box registration. Bigger is better, we’ve all heard that.

Now if we look here you’ll see that a Commando should be half the size of a Banshee.



However, when we look at the size comparison in game we see that a Commando is not half the size of a Banshee. Look at the Locust, according to this chart it's the size of an ant.



These mechs are in fact so small that they are able to hide behind a turret. Should a mech be able to hide behind a turret?
I have at least a hundred screen shots which I have been collecting from this past month of people raging in game. So the BIG issue here is balance and balancing the game towards a relaxed MM that everyone can enjoy.
How can you add new tech and balance a game if the things we go by are not balanced already? If the games not balanced properly then how can we consider if a win's a win.
Has it gotten to a point that being aware of the hit box registration issue and still using these mechs is in fact an exploit? You decide…

Edited by Gwei Loong, 12 June 2017 - 06:47 AM.

[Ruar]

I doubt you get much traction on this one simply because of lore. Look at the difference between the Commando and Enforcer on your chart and you'll see there are plenty of lights that are larger then they would be in BT.

One reason BT size doesn't really matter is because size is not part of the to hit modifier. All mechs are equal when it comes time to shoot. In MWO though size matters a lot.

A better argument about some lights being too small is the fact that size combined with speed and hit registration makes them mitigate damage despite it looking like a hit for the person shooting. If the game can't keep up with tiny targets moving at high speed then it would make sense to increase the size some. At the same time the lights would probably need some armor quirks or additional armor quirks in order to compensate for the increased damage.

[El Bandito]

It's PGI way of balancing Lights since they cannot carry much weapons and have paper thin armor, in an instant convergence game.

[Athom83]

Alpha'd a Locust two times with my 60 point alpha SRM22a + AC/20 Cyclops and is didn't go through the armor. They did indeed hit the Locust as I saw the hitboxes on the target information flash and darken a little. It's not the size of the small mechs that are the issue, its the hit registration.

[Murphy7]

Athom83, on 12 June 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

Alpha'd a Locust two times with my 60 point alpha SRM22a + AC/20 Cyclops and is didn't go through the armor. They did indeed hit the Locust as I saw the hitboxes on the target information flash and darken a little. It's not the size of the small mechs that are the issue, its the hit registration.

SRM hit registration is terrible on narrow targets. Same token, if that AC 20 had hit the Locust is toast.

Locusts go from fine to dead instantly often enough, I don't think the problem is the Locust.

A separate issue is mech collisions though. It should not be so free and easy for a Locust to park itself in an enemy mech's crotch and fire merrily away while the enemy mech has no recourse. Collision damage needs to go way up, perhaps with a 30 second "collisions are free" timer for the start of a match and that usual traffic jam.

[ArmageddonKnight]

El Bandito, on 12 June 2017 - 06:39 AM, said:

It's PGI way of balancing Lights since they cannot carry much weapons

Your having a laugh right.

They may not be able to carry 60 point alpha's ,but they can carry alot more firepower (note i didnt say 'alpha') than previose MW games thanks to MWO having no hardpoint size limitations, and the strong heat/cooling system.

And the firepower they do carry, is plenty when all they do is run behind you and shoot u in the back.


I freely admit im biased, im an assault pilot, so naturaly in MWO i hate Light mechs.
The fact a light can so easily wreck an Assault has never and will never sit right with my 'common sense' notion of; "if a speed boat with a machine gun cant take out a destoryer IRL, how the fk can you justify a light mech taking out an assault mech in 'Sim' type game". A gang of lights yes, but all to often you see and are victim of a single light that just ruins your day ..becouse PGI.

A light mech should never ,,ever ,,see a Assault and lick its lips for an essentaily free kill. It, like every other non Assault mech should see it and go 'oh fk!'. Assaults r meant o be the big badasses, the tanks, and weapon boats.

"but if that were the case , every1 would only play Assaults"
And thats where 'reward balancing' comes into play.

but again ... PGI.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Gwei Loong, on 12 June 2017 - 06:15 AM, said:

*snip*

Make the Banshee only twice the size of the Commando? SURE!

[El Bandito]

ArmageddonKnight, on 12 June 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

I freely admit im biased, im an assault pilot, so naturaly in MWO i hate Light mechs.
The fact a light can so easily wreck an Assault has never and will never sit right with my 'common sense' notion of; "if a speed boat with a machine gun cant take out a destoryer IRL, how the fk can you justify a light mech taking out an assault mech in 'Sim' type game". A gang of lights yes, but all to often you see and are victim of a single light that just ruins your day ..becouse PGI.

A light mech should never ,,ever ,,see a Assault and lick its lips for an essentaily free kill. It, like every other non Assault mech should see it and go 'oh fk!'. Assaults r meant o be the big badasses, the tanks, and weapon boats.

1. If your Assault is losing to a Light 1v1, then the issue might not be on the mech. Hell, mount some Streaks if you can't hit it. My most played mechs are Assaults, and Lights don't scare me.

2. There is nothing wrong with Light mech getting the better of an Assault mech in this Skirmish only arena of a game. Making it more of a rock-paper-scissors suits me just fine.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 June 2017 - 07:47 AM.

[Jman5]

I have no problem with their sizes. The locust is small because it's a 20 ton mech made out of paper mache.

Let me know when Lights reach average matchscore parity with Assaults. Because according to the latest information Light averages would need to increase by about 1/3. So by all accounts we should be buffing lights even more.

Edited by Jman5, 12 June 2017 - 08:03 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

ArmageddonKnight, on 12 June 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

The fact a light can so easily wreck an Assault has never and will never sit right with my 'common sense' notion of; "if a speed boat with a machine gun cant take out a destoryer IRL, how the fk can you justify a light mech taking out an assault mech in 'Sim' type game".

How often does that destroyer
1. Go anywhere without and escort?
2. Have ~0 armour on 3 vital sections?

[Athom83]

Murphy7, on 12 June 2017 - 07:24 AM, said:

A separate issue is mech collisions though. It should not be so free and easy for a Locust to park itself in an enemy mech's crotch and fire merrily away while the enemy mech has no recourse. Collision damage needs to go way up, perhaps with a 30 second "collisions are free" timer for the start of a match and that usual traffic jam.

They've already done this. Did about 100 friendly ram damage when a friendly Warhammer rammed the back of my Cicada and we got stuck together for 3-4 seconds.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Anecdote time!

My Season 12 stats after playing Mediums (and a few matches in Assaults)
Avg Score - ~300
W/L - ~4.0
K/D - ~2.0

After a day of playing Light 'mechs (and only ones I have a decent amount of play time with, no new or crazy builds)
Avg Score - 272
W/L - 1.5
K/D - 1.55

Mediums only
Avg Score - 288
W/L - 3.67
K/D - 1.88

Light only
Avg Score - 198
W/L - 0.57
K/D - 0.78

Leave Light 'mechs alone, OK?

[Weeny Machine]

@OP: Some thoughts about your points...

No mech should be that small that hitreg, which is already wonky enough, totally goes down the drain. In case of locust and commando this seems to be the case. My favourite moment was when I put 3 X 4 MPLs into the CT of a locust beelining me. His CT was yellow. I bet the pilot laughed off his ***. Also, no mech should be able to render weapons imptent by just hugging the enemy

As for ACH and Spider...umm...yeah, their hitboxes are excellent and they spread damage but having problems to hit them? Seriously?

However, I find it disturbing that you only mention the "too small" mechs. Why don't you mention the ones which are too large? Wolfhound, Panther etc are barn doors and considering the silly amount of alphas flying around they feel pretty fragile.Actually all 35t mechs are huge.
You also don't mention that lights have next to zero chance to stay out of a firing arc for a noticeable time of a heavy mech and most assault mechs. But hey, it is their only advantage for which they give up armour, high alphas/dps, heat dissipation, structure etc.

Seeing your stats you hardly play light mechs (zero this season, 11 matches last season). Maybe you should play them and see how fragile they really are - especially the ones which are not the Locust, Commando or ACH

Edited by Bush Hopper, 12 June 2017 - 07:57 AM.

[Zigmund Freud]

ArmageddonKnight, on 12 June 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

Your having a laugh right.

They may not be able to carry 60 point alpha's ,but they can carry alot more firepower (note i didnt say 'alpha') than previose MW games thanks to MWO having no hardpoint size limitations, and the strong heat/cooling system.

And the firepower they do carry, is plenty when all they do is run behind you and shoot u in the back.


I freely admit im biased, im an assault pilot, so naturaly in MWO i hate Light mechs.
The fact a light can so easily wreck an Assault has never and will never sit right with my 'common sense' notion of; "if a speed boat with a machine gun cant take out a destoryer IRL, how the fk can you justify a light mech taking out an assault mech in 'Sim' type game". A gang of lights yes, but all to often you see and are victim of a single light that just ruins your day ..becouse PGI.

A light mech should never ,,ever ,,see a Assault and lick its lips for an essentaily free kill. It, like every other non Assault mech should see it and go 'oh fk!'. Assaults r meant o be the big badasses, the tanks, and weapon boats.

"but if that were the case , every1 would only play Assaults"
And thats where 'reward balancing' comes into play.

but again ... PGI.

Oh please, you have to be alone, in the middle of nowhere, on 48kmph armless atles to get murdered by a single light. It's easily countered by not being alone, staying with back to the wall, carying some sreaks or short range weapons on arms, or ask your lights for support. It's hardly a problem to whine about.
Also I got to agree with Murphy7 here, collision damage should go way up, because leghumping is just stupid.

[Zuri Prime]

The spider and arctic cheeto are both fine; locust, commando and javelin hit registration seems to be a little bit off but mostly the commando has the biggest problem with that.

Lights are mostly fine, and some of them need to be slightly smaller. If you're having problems with light mechs or fast movers ask for your team to help escort you, and know how to turn in an assault to counter a light mech, or even practice in a 1v1 with someone to help you improve.

Edited by Zuri Prime, 12 June 2017 - 08:04 AM.

[Magnus Santini]

Most importantly, I think your screen shots of people raging in-game need their own thread, perhaps in Community Art. Second, Gwei Loong is right that turrets are OP as light mech bunkers and should be removed from the game for the protection of defenseless Kodiaks and Night Gyrs. Finally .

[Alan Davion]

ArmageddonKnight, on 12 June 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

Your having a laugh right.

They may not be able to carry 60 point alpha's ,but they can carry alot more firepower (note i didnt say 'alpha') than previose MW games thanks to MWO having no hardpoint size limitations, and the strong heat/cooling system.

And the firepower they do carry, is plenty when all they do is run behind you and shoot u in the back.


I freely admit im biased, im an assault pilot, so naturaly in MWO i hate Light mechs.
The fact a light can so easily wreck an Assault has never and will never sit right with my 'common sense' notion of; "if a speed boat with a machine gun cant take out a destoryer IRL, how the fk can you justify a light mech taking out an assault mech in 'Sim' type game". A gang of lights yes, but all to often you see and are victim of a single light that just ruins your day ..becouse PGI.

A light mech should never ,,ever ,,see a Assault and lick its lips for an essentaily free kill. It, like every other non Assault mech should see it and go 'oh fk!'. Assaults r meant o be the big badasses, the tanks, and weapon boats.

"but if that were the case , every1 would only play Assaults"
And thats where 'reward balancing' comes into play.

but again ... PGI.

I think what you're forgetting at the points I've highlighted is the pilots are the problem. These assault pilots front load the everlovingshit out of their armor, because they're brawlers, so they need as much front armor as they can get, while leaving their backsides paper thin so to speak.

Once light pilots figured this out, they started adapting their loadouts to make sure they had the right weapons to rip open that tissue paper level armor, and ravage the internal structure of the mech, making an easy kill. Especially if the mech is running an XL.

Meanwhile the assault pilots, instead of figuring out "OH HEY~! MY BACK ARMOR IS TOO F***ING THIN~!" Just started screaming "these light mechs keep sneaking around behind me and insta-killing me~! NERF PLOX~!"

You also have to keep in mind, on the table top, the game had BV to help balance which mechs were effective against which other mechs, and in what numbers they had to be in to be effective.

So for example, let's take the good ol' Atlas AS7-D had a BV of 1,557 in 1.0 and 1,897 in 2.0, now let's take the ever-popular, but easily killed via CT Jenner JR7-D, which had a BV of 669 in 1.0 and 875 in 2.0. For the sake of argument, we're talking stock mechs, so the Atlas would have 10/14/10 for rear armor and the Jenner would have 4/3/4 for rear armor.

On the table top, you'd have to take 2.32-something Jenners to equal an Atlas in 1.0, and 2.168 Jenners to equal an Atlas in 2.0, that seems rather balanced to me. But, that's because, 1, the size of the mech didn't add or subtract from your hit rolls, and 2, terrain doesn't play as much a role on the table top as it does here in MWO.

Here in MWO, that Atlas would be stripped down to, what? 7/10/7 for rear armor or something? Couple that with poor situational awareness, and that Atlas, with it's front loaded armor, yeah it's great for brawling, but that lucky Locust/Commando/Jenner that gets in behind you has the opportunity for a very easy kill.

There's also the bit about actually hitting to take into account. On the table top you had completely random to hit rolls. You might whiff the target big time, or you might score a huge through armor crit and take out that Atlas in one shot. In MWO you have perfect pin-point aim pretty much 100% of the time, so the only reason for you to miss is either you're a big, slow assault firing at a speedyasfuck light mech and it all goes wide, or you're using a steering wheel and you can't aim up and down.

We've become so used to the super high front loaded alpha damage gameplay that attempting any other play style is not going to reward you enough to properly skill and outfit your mech. So everybody hops on the alpha wagon when it's advantageous for them, but as soon as it comes back to bite them in the butt, quite literally in some cases, they start screaming like entitled brats rather than realize their play style, especially front loading all their armor, is a bad idea.

But, coming back to weapons, weapons fire is too fast and too damaging in this game compared to table top. If all weapon damage were reduced by about 25%, maybe even 50%, and slowed down by another second or two, then maybe people wouldn't need to front load their armor all the time, leaving their backs wide open to a smartly played predatory light mech.

Edited by Alan Davion, 12 June 2017 - 08:09 AM.

[Ultimax]

I had to read your post twice to make sure you were serious.

[Mister Glitchdragon]

Everyone playing the game regularly has a hitreg story right now. INB4 "post a video or it didn't happen." It's bad and everyone knows it.

Another factor is the structure branch of the skill tree, through which smaller mechs are made (IMHO) ridiculously beefy, so big PPD guns are not as lethal as they used to be.

Finally, since there is no knock-down and apparently never will be, lights are free to jam themselves into your assault's shins at over 100 kph without repercussion.

Taken all together, it's a good time to run lights if you're good at it.

That said, I don't know if another rescale is any kind of solution.

[DAYLEET]

As far as the matchscore is concerned, its also what is calculated and the pilots the problem not the mech. I remember that while the whole "omg lights are dead" someone made charts with separations between those who play alot and those who dont and lights were pretty even at the higher gametime players. When you factor everyone then ya the score are bads.