47 replies to this topic

[Tier5 Kerensky]

This might not be a new thing, but as I was buying my second King Crab, and levelled it, I realized how much those base bonuses improve it's health.

Right now my King Crab has 158 CT front armor, 4 rear, 73 stucture. ST 102/7 armor 49 stucture.

Compare that to similarly levelled Dire Wolf CT 125/11 with 78 structure, ST 85/6 armor 53 stucture. Obviously the King Crab has much faster torso too. I mean I could understand that King Crab is unperforming, and it would get some armor or stucture quirks. But these amounts, combined with effect of skill nodes, just seems way too much.

And of course, it can get only better right? I'm looking at Black Knight or Grasshopper from current sales. Black Knights have mostly same hardpoints with one having -10% energy heat, another has small PPC quirks and all have roughtly same amount of stucture or armor quirks.

The one with -10% energy heat has stucture bonuses, so with full skill nodes in survival it has about 98 CT front armor 85 stucture, 68 ST front armor and structure 59. So a Dire barely wins that with about 20 more armor but 7 less structure. A 75 ton mech?

And then there's the Zeus which can have like 101 CT front armor with 103 structure. But I don't think Zeus is so bad due to hardpoints. Black Knight isn't so super with them too. But King Crab seems to have gone too far. And the incoming LFE tech will make it worse.

I just looked at the mechs I have or are on sale. And yes the Atlas has more, specially the structure quirked ones, but I think it's fair Atlas to have most.

[Oberost]

Ok, give your Dire Wolf an IS engine and IS weapons and then you can have all this armour bonuses...

You can do the same with the rest of the Clan mechs if you feel that some armour bonuses are better than the flat out better tech that Clans have.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

I don't see the King Crabs armor being reverted without some other corresponding buff.

In the post-desync world with the removal of all of its agility quirks it just isn't competitive with other Assaults that have better mounts, Clan XL, etc. Would you want to play a Kodiak with all of its ballistic hardpoints at crotch level?

[Kiiyor]

All those armour and structure quirks are there for a reason; the mechs that have them are (generally) white hot garbage without them.

The King Crab in particular looks spectacular, but from a viability point of view, it was on the bottom of the ladder. It needs decent quirks to address it's shortcomings, and as a dedicated King Crab pilot, and pilot of Clan Assaults, I can safely say that the current quirks the King Crab have, make it.... ok. Maybe middle of the pack. Initially, I was blown away with the increased numbers, but after a few matches, I still didn't feel as powerful or survivable as I do when wrapped up in Clan steel. It certainly isn't the destroyer that the MarauderIIC is, or the Kodiak, or heck, even the Supernova.

You could probably buff the King Crab even further, and it still wouldn't address the mech's greatest shortcoming; that it has to expose every single pixel of it's silouhette to bring all it's firepower to bear. All that armour is borderline irrelevant when you have double the face time than just about any other mech if you're trying to side peek.

It's the same issue with the skill tree. It (fantasticaly) elevated some average mechs and breathed new life into them, but for those on the bottom of the heap, it did little to push them up. The Awesome has a heap of structure buffs too, and is still terrible. It could have the armour of a 100 tonner and it still wouldn't help. The Cataphract is in the same boat, in that it's shaped like a boat. A poorly designed boat.

There's a lot of other mechs in the same situation, that prove that it's not always about the numbers. Some mechs just need a spectacular advantage, and find that they are still far from spectacular.

[Zergling]

Amusing fact: the top mech in the Resistance leaderboard is currently the Mauler, which has absolutely weak structure quirks, scoring noticably better than the heavier King Crab.
And neither the Black Knight or Zeus are doing very good either.


Current Event Leaderboard averages, in descending order:
Mauler = 2,722
Grasshopper = 2,662
King Crab = 2,652
Wolfhound = 2,580
Black Knight = 2,468
Zeus = 2,322
Crab = 2,223
Enforcer = 2,121
Urbanmech = 2,033
Panther = 1,962

Isn't it funny how the Urbanmech and Panther still can't perform well, despite god-tier armor quirks for such light mechs?

Edited by Zergling, 27 June 2017 - 02:09 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Zergling, on 27 June 2017 - 02:08 AM, said:

Amusing fact: the top mech in the Resistance leaderboard is currently the Mauler, which has absolutely weak structure quirks, scoring noticably better than the heavier King Crab.
And neither the Black Knight or Zeus are doing very good either.


Current Event Leaderboard averages, in descending order:
Mauler = 2,722
Grasshopper = 2,662
King Crab = 2,652
Wolfhound = 2,580
Black Knight = 2,468
Zeus = 2,322
Crab = 2,223
Enforcer = 2,121
Urbanmech = 2,033
Panther = 1,962

Isn't it funny how the Urbanmech and Panther still can't perform well, despite god-tier armor quirks for such light mechs?

Leaderboard is all about damage potential though, not over all viability. It would be much more interesting to see average score... All drops counted, not just the best 10.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 27 June 2017 - 02:28 AM.

[El Bandito]

You mean the mech is finally not King Crap, anymore?

[Toothless]

Lets just make every mech in the game the same, because clearly individuality is bad.

The day the King Crab can mount the kind of firepower that the Dire Wolf does you will have a complaint thats valid, but
right now youre just wanting your cake and eating it.

[STEF_]

Kiiyor, on 27 June 2017 - 01:58 AM, said:

The Cataphract is in the same boat, in that it's shaped like a boat. A poorly designed boat.

Do you hear that sound coming from the stars, challenging even the empty space?

The entire Cappellan Confederation is boooing at you.

[Bud Crue]

Bad hit boxes and low hardpoints vs good quirks.

That's all this is.

[The6thMessenger]

Considering that the King Crab is just the most shootable mech ever, maybe it does deserve all that obscene amount of armor quirks? I think so.

I would have preferred obscene mobility quirks, but honestly that's good too.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Duke Nedo, on 27 June 2017 - 02:27 AM, said:

Leaderboard is all about damage potential though, not over all viability. It would be much more interesting to see average score... All drops counted, not just the best 10.

And what people have, in particular what good players have. That's what they are playing.



Well, maybe the quirks are okay.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 27 June 2017 - 01:47 AM, said:

[...]
Would you want to play a Kodiak with all of its ballistic hardpoints at crotch level?

I just imagined a Kodiak with 4 autocannons sticking out from there, firing.
Hell yes I would want to pilot that thing!

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 27 June 2017 - 05:45 AM.

[Skanderborg]

Oberost, on 27 June 2017 - 01:34 AM, said:

Ok, give your Dire Wolf an IS engine and IS weapons and then you can have all this armour bonuses...

You can do the same with the rest of the Clan mechs if you feel that some armour bonuses are better than the flat out better tech that Clans have.

It is true that the DW can mount the most impressive firepower in the game , it also has THE worst hitboxes. The DW is essentially unsable if the other team is any good.

[Ced Riggs]

Excuse me, but, clans OP. Please get with the program.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Skanderborg, on 27 June 2017 - 05:47 AM, said:

It is true that the DW can mount the most impressive firepower in the game , it also has THE worst hitboxes. The DW is essentially unsable if the other team is any good.

What I find about the King Crab after the buff, that is true of the Dire Wolf as well, is that when you fight them in another Assault they feel really strong. If you're in a Stalker/Mauler/Warhawk/MAD-IIC etc, you don't have the mobility to really take advantage of their sluggishness, and barring the Battlemaster, Kodiak, or Banshee, you're probably going to meet it on flat ground where you would prefer to fight as well. If you win, it's going to be close.

What I find when I play the King Crab is that while it's strong, the amount of **** you have to put up with is on a whole different level from anything else. Getting your side torso stripped before you can even see the enemy. Whiffing shots into the sides of hills or ramps on Tourmaline/Grim Plexus/Polar hellhole. Getting poked by people frontally at range as you feebly try to defend yourself with a pair of medium lasers or a PPC or whatever. etc.

It's tanky now, but it hardly matters if you're getting picked apart because 1) 100t mobility 2) lowest widest hardpoints in the game 3) gigantic *** sticks out from behind cover against both LOS and indirect fire. The only variant to break the curse was playing the -0000 as the death frisbee with no ballistics, or playing it asymmetrically, and that variant just lost its -15% missile CD.

Even with the armor quirks, it's not a mech you can just pick up and play and do well in. Without the armor quirks it was honestly a little offensive. I used to enjoy playing the KGC a lot but I can't really be bothered to find the knack again. I'd rather play a chassis that's innately strong at a hardpoint level than something that needs superquirks to even get looked at by the average player.

Edited by Aggravated Assault Mech, 27 June 2017 - 06:25 AM.

[JC Daxion]

Zergling, on 27 June 2017 - 02:08 AM, said:

Amusing fact: the top mech in the Resistance leaderboard is currently the Mauler, which has absolutely weak structure quirks, scoring noticably better than the heavier King Crab.
And neither the Black Knight or Zeus are doing very good either.


Current Event Leaderboard averages, in descending order:
Mauler = 2,722
Grasshopper = 2,662
King Crab = 2,652
Wolfhound = 2,580
Black Knight = 2,468
Zeus = 2,322
Crab = 2,223
Enforcer = 2,121
Urbanmech = 2,033
Panther = 1,962

Isn't it funny how the Urbanmech and Panther still can't perform well, despite god-tier armor quirks for such light mechs?

well seeing the event is a large varriety of things with damage being a big factor. that really does not mean much when you are playing a light. Yes sometimes you can have a high damage number.. but often a light pilot can do 300 or so damage and get a bunch of kills, or cause a bunch of kills.

Often high damage has much more to do with either poor aim, or spreading damage. Lights especially the short ranges lights can hit where they need and cause the death.


SO leader boards are mis-leading in that area.


But
Grasshopper 3,455
wolfhound 3438
king crab 3,415
mauler 3,378
urban 3,189
zues 3,203
enf 3,111
Mini crab, 2,881
BK 2,837
Pnt 2,531


and then factor in who is playing what.. I see some of the leaders or top folks are known top players. I don't know about all the top people on the boards though.. So many factors involved here But as you can see the leader boards are totally mixed up at this point


But i'd hardly call panthers god tier armor.. they are sitting around 30 something points total.

Edited by JC Daxion, 27 June 2017 - 06:59 AM.

[Zergling]

JC Daxion, on 27 June 2017 - 06:57 AM, said:

But i'd hardly call panthers god tier armor.. they are sitting around 30 something points total.

More like +108 total armor for the 10P, when the normal max for a 35 tonner is 238. That gives it 45% more total armor than a 35 tonner without any armor quirks.

CT durability (with 5 points rear armor) is 22 structure + 37 armor on an unquirked 35 tonner, for 59 hit points in total.
For the Panther, it has 22 structure + 49 armor, for 71 hit points in total, 20% more than an unquirked 35 tonner.


In comparison, an unquirked 100 tonner has a maximum of 614 armor. With its armor quirks the Atlas -D has +149 armor, giving it 24% more armor than an unquirked 100 tonner.

CT durability (with 5 points rear armor again) is 62 structure + 119 armor on an unquirked 100 tonner, for 181 hit points in total.
For the Atlas -D, it has 62 structure + 150 armor, for 212 hit points in total, giving it 17% more CT hit points than an unquirked 100 tonner.


So yeah, the Panther's armor quirks are stronger for a 35 ton mech than the Atlas -D's armor quirks are for a 100 tonner.

Edited by Zergling, 27 June 2017 - 07:51 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Bud Crue, on 27 June 2017 - 03:42 AM, said:

Bad hit boxes and low hardpoints vs good quirks.

That's all this is.

Could someone please give a Technical definition of a "Bad Hit-box" please. The term itself seems very, very "generic". Low mounts I got.

Are they simply to BIG, or to TALL, or to WIDE or ALL the above?

All Hit-boxes, for all Mech's, in each class have the same Armor potential, thus a bad Hit-box can't be armor/structure based...

Anyone?

[Ced Riggs]

Almond Brown, on 27 June 2017 - 07:51 AM, said:

Bad hitboxes?

If you can hit the CT even after massive amounts of twisting, the hitbox is bad. Example: Timber Wolf.
If you cannot hide a weapon-bearing side torso by twisting, the hitbox is bad. Example: Summoner.
If you can clearly see where ST and CT are seperate, the hitboxes are bad. Example: Marauder.

The more egregious these factors, the worse the hitboxes. Kodiak and Dire Whale have their ST/CT hitboxes very clearly imprinted, and both are massive, resulting in even Michael J. Fox tier aiming to stay with a single component.The worse the hitboxes, the less XL-friendly a mech is. A mech like the Atlas, with barn-sized hitboxes, can't go XL because you can easily focus it down. A mech like the Crab, however, has tiny ST hitboxes and can hide the STs with it#s long nose - even if that makes it easier to hit the CT, a Crab can spread damage very quickly, with minimal twisting. The Ebon jaguar, or the Timber Wolf, on the other hand, can't. Especially SPlt and Lurm Wolves are easy to take apart.

There is no set in stone metric, because every hitbox and mech is different. But, you can thumb.guesstimate how good a hitbox is. The Roughneck, for example, can protect STs with arms, hide STs with the CT protrustions and roll the CT behind arms, too. That's good hitboxes.