70 replies to this topic

[Juodas Varnas]

I'm still not buying the Dragon, until its weapon geometry doesn't look like complete ****.

Also, make the RA high-mounted.

[Gorgo7]

Consider that a better comparison would be to give the Zeus an engine weighing 22.5 tons as a direct ratio (28.3%) of total weight. The same ratio that is used in the Dragon. Bigger firepower for the Zeus.
For those who would compare it to a Kodiac or Night Gyr compare the Dragon to one of those as well.

[Lightfoot]

Zeus 6S I use a Gauss Rifle and 3 large lasers and an ST engine. A bit slow, but no longer affects agility. Still the Orion does this load-out better. And any 70-75 tonner with the slots, but it's good with the 6S.

[Escef]

I find it interesting that the OP used a properly skilled up Dragon against a poorly skilled up Zeus.

Unskilled, the Dragon has better armored side torsos and a more robust AC arm than the Zeus. The arm has a 10 point armor and 4 point structure edge over the Zeus; the side torsos have 4 points of armor over the Zeus, but 23 points less structure.

Now, with skills I don't imagine the Zeus's arm to catch up with Dragon's; far from it, I expect a wider disparity. However, I do NOT expect the Dragon side torsos to catch up with the Zeus's total toughness (someone that runs the numbers on both mechs may or may not prove me wrong on this). Furthermore, the 4 point edge the Zeus has over the Dragon on CT armor will likely evaporate with proper use of the Survival tree skills, but I doubt the Dragon will catch up on the 15 point lead the Zeus has in structure.

The biggest difference comes in choice of engine and total payload. Just as an example, with a slightly smaller engine than the OP used, the Zeus can carry significantly more heat sinks with a comparable weapons load, giving it comparable survivability to the Dragon with a much more robust RoF.

Do I think the Dragon is over-quirked? Yes, slightly. But the Dragon still has worse hitboxes than the Zeus, and its missile hard point placement maxes at 2xSRM4, SRM6, ASRM4, ALRM5, or LRM10 (or 2xSSRM4 or an MRM10 post time jump); while the Zeus's single hard point can mount up to an ASRM6 or ALRM20 (or SSRM6 or MRM40 post time jump). Furthermore, the Zeus has 2 more energy hard points. If you build to the Zeus's strengths it will perform at least as well as a Dragon.

Edited by Escef, 24 June 2017 - 12:08 PM.

[r4plez]

Escef, on 24 June 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

If you build to the Zeus's strengths it will perform at least as well as a Dragon.

Thats the whole point - Zeus is 20 tons havier it should be the opposite - how is that 60T Dragon got Armor/Structure like 80T Zeus? Even if you compare overall hit boxes Dragon is sign of bad thing allowed by our ballance overlord..

[Escef]

r4plez, on 24 June 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:

Thats the whole point - Zeus is 20 tons havier it should be the opposite - how is that 60T Dragon got Armor/Structure like 80T Zeus? Even if you compare overall hit boxes Dragon is sign of bad thing allowed by our ballance overlord..

If you read what I said, the Dragon has different armor/structure. The Dragon still has far squishier side torsos, despite the fact that it is more XL dependent than the Zeus. Furthermore, once again, build to the mech's strength. Building both a Dragon and a Zeus to their strengths will result in very different mechs that have different roles.

[Ratpoison]

In my experience, the Zeus works much better without a giant "kill me please" XL engine in it, having an empty torso to sacrifice goes a long way for survivability, as it's great at twisting damage.

[LT. HARDCASE]

My Zeus are going to EAT, once I drop in some LFE. Freaking can't wait.

Dragon's hitboxes are so bad, you have to gimp the Zeus to make the comparison . No one is running an XL390 with that trash loadout.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Yellonet, on 24 June 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to nerf the dragon, but the Zeus could use some love.

Yeah I saw they where on sale and tried making some viable builds for them but....Its just...garbage...Best I could come up with that suited my fancy was a 1ppc 3medium 3srm6 standard 300 build.....Other than that...maybe some dual ac5 shenangins?

LT. HARDCASE, on 24 June 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

My Zeus are going to EAT, once I drop in some LFE. Freaking can't wait.

Dragon's hitboxes are so bad, you have to gimp the Zeus to make the comparison . No one is running an XL390 with that trash loadout.

Dragon has excellent hitboxes. at least for running xl engines....Large ct but its got armor quirks.

[Weeny Machine]

KodiakGW, on 24 June 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

Don't forget this little tidbit too. There were 118 medium variants before the new heros were released. 70% of those have worse baseline mobility than a certain 60 ton mech. Most more that 30% worse.

I want to make clear I AM NOT ASKING FOR THAT MECH TO BE NERFED..

....let me reiterate so we have no confusion, I AM NOT ASKING FOR THAT MECH TO BE NERFED...

..what I think should be done is to take a look and bring other mechs more in line. Bump the baseline mobility up a bit for other heavies. Bump the mediums below the Kintaro up to it's mobility. Bump the Kintaro up to the WVR. And, for Jibbers Crabst, stop treating the Shadowhawk like an OP mech that always needs to be nerfed. Those days are long gone. Same goes for all of the non KDK-3 Kodiaks.

You know, baby steps. See what happens. Adjust accordingly. Maybe then we might be "excited for new mech packs".

This certain heavy mech and another certain heavy have also better baseline agility stats than many light mechs which weigh 35t less. If it were as agile as the upper mediums...whatever...then it would just be a variation and add good flavour. However, the current stats are like showing the middle finger to many lighter mechs

Edited by Bush Hopper, 24 June 2017 - 01:26 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Promessa, on 24 June 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

It's kind of goofy. I'm really not a fan of certain mechs being giant damage sponges, it's making the game less fun imo.. Health is really inconstant and it doesn't feel good. I think there should really only be minor armor increases on common failure points like the Hunchback's right torso and not the huge all-over increases we are seeing on mech's who's hitboxes aren't even particularly bad. Better mobility would be a more fun way to make a mech more viable

Armor doesn't just help you not die, it helps you deploy otherwise uncompetitive weapons arrangements. The DRG-1C only works as well as it does because it got a sizeable increase to its rate of fire and a sizeable increase to its armor so it can remain exposed to actually use that rate of fire. Without one or the other, the 'Mech doesn't have anything going for it.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 24 June 2017 - 02:00 PM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

For the record, this is a properly quirked Zeus 5S:



Note the structure.

xXBagheeraXx, on 24 June 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

Dragon has excellent hitboxes. at least for running xl engines....Large ct but its got armor quirks.

Being XL friendly, because every single shots will hit your CT, isn't a positive.

[FLG 01]

LT. HARDCASE, on 24 June 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

Note the structure.

Note that the -5S enjoys twice the CT structure quirks the other variants have, and better quirks on the STs and legs too. Since the skill tree operates with percentages the higher base value of the -5S's structure obviously transfers to massive boni when properly quirked.

Edited by FLG 01, 24 June 2017 - 02:45 PM.

[MechaBattler]

They should give all of them armor quirks to the side torsos. A reduced version of the Atlas' crit reduction quirk. And increased torso turn rate. This will make it more XL friendly.

Edited by MechaBattler, 24 June 2017 - 03:14 PM.

[GrimRiver]

When I had my Zeus this is what I ran: ZEU-5S

This build is well balanced between ample firepower, mobility, armor, heat and ammo.

Even better with an LFE to increase engine rating or bigger weapons.

[Kubernetes]

I personally prefer an XL in my Zeus. A Std doesn't give you much more survivability when you're that slow. My 9Ss run in the mid to high 70s, which means I can keep up with the heavies. I'm also not a fan of brawling with the Zeus--even with quirks it's just not a great tank. Better to stay at midrange and use those great energy quirks to laser vomit all day.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

no need to bother with the missiles in my opinion. More ammo. I sub out a ML for a Flamer.

[Lightfoot]

Most of these builds are brawler builds and the canon Zeus is not a brawler. It's an old mech from a time when 1 LRM15 did some damage (never happened in MWO). MWO requires 2 or 3 LRM launchers so the MWO Zeus is forced to carry SRMs or none. XL engines don't fix this since there is nothing worse than a slow XL assault.

And that's the other thing. The main thing wrong. The Zeus is an Assault, it takes the slot of a Kodiak, Dire Wolf, Atlas, Nightstar, but it doesn't even have the armor of a 60 ton Dragon which is a much smaller target and the Quickdraw 4-IV has more armor. True the Zeus carries a bit more, but not as much as all the other Assaults. It can't even carry an AC20 in MWO. But all it gets is some mid-range structure quirks and buffs for your ac5 or UAC5. Most of the 3061 weapons will not work for the Zeus either, or not as well as they will for other mechs. Your 1 RAC5 is not going to frighten anyone and likely MWO's HGR won't fit any Zeus. MRMs too heavy. Maybe a UAC10 that doesn't jam.

Oh well, I just always liked the Zeus and MW4 had a good one.

[xXBagheeraXx]

after buying one of the zeuses and playing about 7 games in it I sold it again. That mech is poop....and its ALL ct....

[Escef]

What blows my mind about the people saying how bad the Zeus is that my highest damage dealt match was just in a Zeus. 1307. It wasn't even a fancy build (LRM15, AC10, 4*ML, 375XL). And overall, the Zeuses have been good to me.