65 replies to this topic

[Sereglach]

Andi Nagasia, on 25 June 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

a Compact250 would Weights 6.5more Tons than a Standard250, thats a steep penalty for 3more Crits,

Compact engine and gyro are ridiculously easy to add. Have Compact Engine and Gyro each add 50% extra structure to the CT and 25% extra structure to other components (at MINIMUM the legs). This means you're paying the tonnage for real survivability . . . the kind of survivability you actually got out of these components in TT (since it was basically impossible to "die" via engine or gyro crits with those mods).

It would also bring the viability of zombie mechs back to the game in a BIG way.

[Andi Nagasia]

Sereglach, on 25 June 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

Compact engine and gyro are ridiculously easy to add. Have Compact Engine and Gyro each add 50% extra structure to the CT and 25% extra structure to other components (at MINIMUM the legs). This means you're paying the tonnage for real survivability . . . the kind of survivability you actually got out of these components in TT (since it was basically impossible to "die" via engine or gyro crits with those mods).

It would also bring the viability of zombie mechs back to the game in a BIG way.

dont think this would be necessary, as its getting too huge a Benefit to using them,
perhaps start with around +10% maybe +15% Structure to the to start, not 50%,
(Full SkillTree gives you +40%Structure on lights & 25-28% on Assaults,

[Snowbluff]

Sereglach, on 25 June 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

Compact engine and gyro are ridiculously easy to add. Have Compact Engine and Gyro each add 50% extra structure to the CT and 25% extra structure to other components (at MINIMUM the legs). This means you're paying the tonnage for real survivability . . . the kind of survivability you actually got out of these components in TT (since it was basically impossible to "die" via engine or gyro crits with those mods).

It would also bring the viability of zombie mechs back to the game in a BIG way.

The Compact Gyro doesn't need the buff.

Adding that to the compact engine would be OP AF. Then again, *ahem* NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE COMPACT ENGINE. It has always been bad.

Edited by Snowbluff, 26 June 2017 - 04:02 PM.

[Sereglach]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 June 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

dont think this would be necessary, as its getting too huge a Benefit to using them,
perhaps start with around +10% maybe +15% Structure to the to start, not 50%,
(Full SkillTree gives you +40%Structure on lights & 25-28% on Assaults,

Percentages are, of course subject to change. However, you said that the tonnage was a steep penalty to pay for just a few freed up crits; and I gave you a way to make it not a penalty, but a viable choice.

[Andi Nagasia]

Sereglach, on 26 June 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

Percentages are, of course subject to change. However, you said that the tonnage was a steep penalty to pay for just a few freed up crits; and I gave you a way to make it not a penalty, but a viable choice.

agreed, now all we need is to move up a year to 3068,
when both become available, which would be nice as Light-ACs and C-HAGs come with them,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 26 June 2017 - 05:02 PM.

[Sereglach]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 June 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

agreed, now all we need is to move up a year to 3068,
when both become available, which would be nice as Light-ACs and C-HAGs come with them,

There's so much tech that I wish we would get, and plenty of it is just within a few years of where they pushed the timeline to. To me, it makes little-to-no sense that they won't play a little loose with the equipment when they've gone more than a little lax on mech variants.

[Snowbluff]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 June 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

agreed, now all we need is to move up a year to 3068,
when both become available, which would be nice as Light-ACs and C-HAGs come with them,

Can with give it a couple more years. Clan Diamond Shark has a new variety of Autocannon to offer...

[Andi Nagasia]

Sereglach, on 26 June 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

There's so much tech that I wish we would get, and plenty of it is just within a few years of where they pushed the timeline to. To me, it makes little-to-no sense that they won't play a little loose with the equipment when they've gone more than a little lax on mech variants.

well PGI has never(to my Knowledge) implemented any non Standard Tech(no Advanced / Experimental Tech)
so technically everything you can build in MWO is Tournament Legal as per BattleTech TT and Solaris Play,

[Sereglach]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 June 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

well PGI has never(to my Knowledge) implemented any non Standard Tech(no Advanced / Experimental Tech)
so technically everything you can build in MWO is Tournament Legal as per BattleTech TT and Solaris Play,

And? I'm not really referring to experimental tech; and there's plenty of stuff within "Advanced Rules" that would be viable within the game, as well. Besides, a lot of the TT restrictions really are just because of the overly complicated (not complex, just complicated) and excessive rules bloat of their own rules set. PGI via MWO, can easily compensate for it with the wonders of computation.

The only trick, like we're discussing with these gyro and cockpit modifications, is how to make many of the things viable in the "Sim" setting, where dice rolls don't really exist? It's sad how quickly and easy we have come up with so many solutions, though; and we've been providing the solutions to PGI for years.

[Brain Cancer]

Promessa, on 26 June 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Put knockdowns in and make xl gyro mechs easier to knockdown

Or just, you know, put in gyro damage.

Damaged gyro drops you to maximum cruise speed. Dead gyro immobilizes the 'Mech.

So much stuff in MWO that PGI just never bothered modeling damage for.

[Snowbluff]

Brain Cancer, on 26 June 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

Or just, you know, put in gyro damage.

Damaged gyro drops you to maximum cruise speed. Dead gyro immobilizes the 'Mech.

So much stuff in MWO that PGI just never bothered modeling damage for.

I agree. Add gyro and engine crits.

Gyro crits increase shake and lower twist speed.

Engine crits lower hill climb and accel/decel.

Having a compact item and then crit packing that slot helps keep it from being crit.

Edited by Snowbluff, 26 June 2017 - 08:06 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Snowbluff, on 26 June 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

I agree. Add gyro and engine crits.

Gyro crits increase shake and lower twist speed.

Engine crits lower hill climb and accel/decel.

Having a compact item and then crit packing that slot helps keep it from being crit.

shake? as screen shake, you may just be a Genius!!!
replaced the Penalty to XL-Gyro with, +52.5% Screen-Shake,
which is will increase your Screen shake when getting hit with enemy Fire,
why 52.5%? well that makes it the opposite of the Improved-Gyros Skill x3(17.5% each)

i also feel Engine and Gyro Crits should be Discussed,
but i also feel they very much need and deserve their own topic,
i would like to keep this discussion rooted in Cockpit / Gyro Upgrade Tabs,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 26 June 2017 - 08:21 PM.

[Snowbluff]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 June 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

shake? as screen shake, you may just be a Genius!!!
replaced the Penalty to XL-Gyro with, +52.5% Screen-Shake,
which is will increase your Screen shake when getting hit with enemy Fire,
why 52.5%? well that makes it the opposite of the Improved-Gyros Skill x3(17.5% each)

i also feel Engine and Gyro Crits should be Discussed,
but i also feel they very much need and deserve their own topic,
i would like to keep this discussion rooted in Cockpit / Gyro Upgrade Tabs,

Yep, screen shake, inspired by gyro nodes.

A nonlethal engine crit system might be an immersive way of giving a slight edge to smaller (slots) engine. Pgi has known that mobilit(in terms of accel, twist speeds, etc)y is a key part of a mech's balance for a while ,and that is why hero mechs had good agility and the MAD IIC and Night Gyr got their mobility nerfed.

It does need its own thread.

[evilauthor]

Snowbluff, on 26 June 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

Engine crits lower hill climb and accel/decel.

Engine crits in TT increased the heat generated by the mech, effectively disabling 5 heat sink capacity per crit. On the third crit, the engine is considered "destroyed" which is the basis for why losing a side torso kills an XL engine.

In MWO terms, each engine crit means either a) the mech starts generating an extra 0.5 heat per second (10 standard heat sinks sink 1 heat per second), or the mech loses the ability to dissipate 0.5 heat per second (ie, if you started with 10 DHS all in the engine, you're now down to dissipating 1.5 heat per second from 2). Either way, the heat penalty would be significant because many mech loadouts already run hot without battle damage adding to the heat burden.

[Snowbluff]

evilauthor, on 26 June 2017 - 10:04 PM, said:

Engine crits in TT increased the heat generated by the mech, effectively disabling 5 heat sink capacity per crit. On the third crit, the engine is considered "destroyed" which is the basis for why losing a side torso kills an XL engine.

In MWO terms, each engine crit means either a) the mech starts generating an extra 0.5 heat per second (10 standard heat sinks sink 1 heat per second), or the mech loses the ability to dissipate 0.5 heat per second (ie, if you started with 10 DHS all in the engine, you're now down to dissipating 1.5 heat per second from 2). Either way, the heat penalty would be significant because many mech loadouts already run hot without battle damage adding to the heat burden.

I was avoiding a heat increase because destroying an engine component does that already (for clan XL and probably LFE soon). Maybe we can make it so the heat sinks inside can be crit?

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

I was avoiding a heat increase because destroying an engine component does that already (for clan XL and probably LFE soon). Maybe we can make it so the heat sinks inside can be crit?

In TT, the equivalent engine damage to a lost side torso on Clan XL/IS LFE is 66% of engine health (that is, it can take three critical hits, where the third destroys the engine- and a lost ST is the first two).

Engine damage can simply take the lost torso penalty as the equivalent 66% of engine health (whatever HP you give it) gone, and you'll have a broader and more gradual range of heat gain/movement loss as engines go from having a chip or two out to near destruction.

[evilauthor]

If engine critting is implemented, you could theoretically kill a mech without having to completely destroy a torso component. How many of us have poured fire into a heavy or assault mech's open CT without actually destroying it because there's so many structure points? If you could crit the engine, you'd probably get three crits on an engine long before the open CT runs out of structure points.

[Brain Cancer]

Depends on how much HP they give the engine/gyro, but yes. It could happen.

Internal structure was never supposed to be a sturdy, nearly impossible to crit for meaningful effects thing. Honestly, if your vulnerable guts are hanging out of destroyed armor, Bad Things Should Happen.

Limbs should take actuator damage, reducing mobility much like removing them from arms, or simply movement speed for legs. Gyro. Engine. Sensor damage wrecking your HUD. And so on.

Damage modeling was effectively abandoned by PGI deep inside the beta, and if engine damage had been in when the Clans were added, there'd have been far less complaints about Clan XLs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Andi Nagasia, on 24 June 2017 - 09:05 PM, said:

Edit- ya im actually a Programmer my self,

Then you should know things are never THAT simple. Now, I'm sure it CAN be done, but how much time they are willing to devote to make sure it is done is another story considering it may require refactoring pieces of code that is VERY old.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 June 2017 - 01:23 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 June 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

Then you should know things are never THAT simple. Now, I'm sure it CAN be done, but how much time they are willing to devote to make sure it is done is another story considering it may require refactoring pieces of code that is VERY old.

True, but the problem isnt programing the Penalties or even the Locked components,
the problem is the the UI and HUD work for adding in the 2 other Upgrade Tabs, and their Function,
in this case it wouldnt be hard to do, but perhaps time consuming as it would need development time,