107 replies to this topic

[Gwahlur]

nehebkau, on 27 June 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

@OP. You are right, I now boat air-strikes.... such fun.

Unfortunately, this is true

[FupDup]

Dialectic, on 27 June 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

I'm new so don't stab me - what's wrong with boating? Is it a lore thing?

Pretty much...even though the lore itself has plenty of examples of boating.

I guess it's about what certain people think that Battletech "should be" rather than what it actually is and has been.

[Ced Riggs]

Dialectic, on 27 June 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

I'm new so don't stab me - what's wrong with boating? Is it a lore thing?

Really, nothing. This is an artificial complaint. There's lore builds that pride themselves in have weapons from 15 to 0 range, but are, ultimately, hot garbage. Jack of all trades, master of none kinda deals.

[Pjwned]

Dialectic, on 27 June 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

I'm new so don't stab me - what's wrong with boating? Is it a lore thing? From a standalone game perspective it makes total sense. Rarely in games like this is mixing weapons better than concentrating weapons. What does it matter though?

There's nothing inherently wrong with it, even from a lore standpoint which features a number of stock mechs as energy boats and such; it just makes the game stale if boating is incentivized too much.

There's always going to be boating to some extent, so as long as it's not way too prevalent--which it isn't now for the most part--then it's not a problem.

[nehebkau]

Gwahlur, on 27 June 2017 - 07:31 AM, said:

Unfortunately, this is true

Yes it's true the people are boating airstrikes/ arty. When the new skills for strikes, a team with 24 of them can decimate a drop. Even to the point of lowering your usual boat-line of the weapons tree to get them.

Edited by nehebkau, 27 June 2017 - 07:37 AM.

[Dialectic]

I see. Well, the typical mad dog build seems to be Artemis splat dog. I switched it to regular srm 6's and equipped 5 med lasers. Now I have medium range capability and still have most of that brawling strength. Is that boating? Seems to me I mixed my range roles a bit to better work in quick play randomness. But based on this thread I'm a boat . So.... I don't know. I'll just keep having fun

[Morderian]

Generally there is nothing wrong with it except the risk reward factor,
as for me the problem with boating is that boating most stuff is not really hot and that there are no heat penalties so you can get away without drawbacks.

I can go through most of my Vomit builds and they do not have heat problems even if i remove most of the heatsinks for a bigger engine (my battlemaster beign prime example) and before i add coolshots in it, in TT on the other hand many of this builds would BBQ my Pilot or make the mech not run for a long time (30 points over HS limit who cares i can fire another Alpha (strictly speaking not alpha but all weapongroups after another to evade Ghost heat)).

Edited by Morderian, 27 June 2017 - 07:53 AM.

[Clownwarlord]

Disagree, i find it easy to combine some weapons systems based more on range than boating. Example would be medium pulses and srms.

[KodiakGW]

Ced Riggs, on 27 June 2017 - 07:01 AM, said:

You mean the two weapons that universally benefit from range, velocity, heat generation and cooldown? Unlike before, with the module system, where you had to pick one of them? Out of all universal nodes, 100% apply to both weapons. All of them. There is no universal node that does not improve both PPCs and SRMs. How is that not beneficial? I swear, you are trying to create an artificial argument here.

PPCs don't even have or need weapon specific nodes, leaving you free to pursue the missile nodes, of which there are 6. Six. That's nothing. You can even use them to take shortcuts and open up the lower tree without taking a dead node. You are even being rewarded for taking these missile nodes.

What in the flip-flopping hell.

No, I don't think you are getting it. What if a "Cooldown" node was not a set .75% for every weapon. Why not make it so you get equal benefit from unlocking the same node. Unlock enough to get .25 second Cooldown on ERPPC, and .25 second on SRM4s. Different percentages, and your infighting weapons get better. Maybe even make the nodes more beneficial to lesser used weapons, like LBX2 and 5. Neither really need a range boost, and the Cooldown doesn't give them, or even the LBX10, as much benefit as it does for Gauss. Yes they get "a" benefit, but not enough to forgo boating Gauss and ERPPCs for the most benefit.

Unfortunately, we have a system where you have no idea what map you will drop on. So I have always taken mixed builds instead of boating. Enough to snipe on Polar Highlands when I get it 4 times in a row, and enough to defend myself against a push on Mining Collective the very next game.

Edit - Now done. Really....just DONE. If you don't get it.. then you won't and it is not worth arguing anymore.

Edited by KodiakGW, 27 June 2017 - 08:08 AM.

[Ced Riggs]

Morderian, on 27 June 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

(30 points over HS limit who cares i can fire another Alpha (strictly speaking not alpha but all weapongroups after another to evade Ghost heat)).

Did you have the same heat capacity in TT as you do in MW:O? Did you also face down double the armor? Or was your "alpha" in TT often terrifying to the point where a single AC20 with some lasers could cripple or kill a mech in one volley?

[Skanderborg]

Dialectic, on 27 June 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

I'm new so don't stab me - what's wrong with boating? Is it a lore thing? From a standalone game perspective it makes total sense. Rarely in games like this is mixing weapons better than concentrating weapons. What does it matter though?

It does make total sense , only in the board game where you are fighting infantry , vehicles , planes , and whatever else do mixed builds make sense.

Edited by Skanderborg, 27 June 2017 - 08:18 AM.

[KodiakGW]

PhoenixFire55, on 27 June 2017 - 07:03 AM, said:

This argument is void, people were building SRM boats and dropping on Polar several times in a row before the skill tree all the same, it has nothing to do with the lack of actual "mixed" builds. Sure, go ahead, build your "mixed" ERPPC/SRM mech, even purchase all the nodes for all your weapons. You will have 2 ERPPCs, I'll have 2 ERPPCs+2Gauss and wreck you on Polar. You will have 3 SRM4s, I'll have 7 SRM4s and will wreck you in a brawl on River City in a different mech etc. When your mech can't do anything exceptionally well, with skill bar going upwards, essentially you can't do anything at all.

Your argument is void...unless PGI is giving you special disposition to actually determine which map you get to play.

You take your 7 SRM and get Polar from the map pick game. I tear you up with my ERPPCs at range and finish you off with them SRMs when you get in range.

You take your 2ERPPC+2Gauss on Mining, I push into you with the team and take you down before your third alpha recycles.

Happens to me all the time when I boat. Glad it doesn't happen to you. Just sick of always needing to take LPL because I have no idea what map/mode I'm going to get.

[FupDup]

Skanderborg, on 27 June 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

It does make total sense , only in the board game where you are fighting infantry , vehicles , planes , and whatever else do mixed builds make sense.

When fighting mixed targets, the only mixed build you need is a bunch of Clan LPLs linked to a Targeting Computer and maybe a few MGs/Flamers/Micro Pulse to deal with infantry hordes.

[Morderian]

no just simple math and using my MWO builds converted, example Madcat 4 ER-PPC + 15 DHS (and before you get at me with MWO guns are cooler pls remeber that MWO heatsinks are vastly inferior to heatsinks in TT)

in MWO i fire my 4PPCs in pairs to evade ghost heat, then after firing those i can still fire 2 additional PPCs and be at 80-90% without overheating basically 30 heat + 30 heat +30 Heat now we remove 30 Heat for the HS and we end with an overheat of 60 this woul be instant shutdown not mentioning the other heat penalties or in short the game allows me to have way more heat then i should actually be able to gather

same goes for my thrown together Battlemaster (3LPL 5 MPL) easily 3 Alphas and not getting shutdown (ending at 95% by really going over the top) or having my AMS Ammo explode

and this is what makes boating (especially laser) in my opinion way too easy as there is no brake for the first 2-3 Salvos of high damage pinpoint strikes as nobody is forced to take either heatsinks enough to cool the guns or match their firing speed aka after the first alpha of my lasers i sit there with a lot less firepower for some time

and double armor has no meaning here as that is here to prevent OHK thanks to pinpoint

[Coolant]

agree with OP, should be able to save a template to instantly apply to another mech.

I don't think I boat anymore than I used to, but can now micro-tweak to make my builds more effective.

[PhoenixFire55]

KodiakGW, on 27 June 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

You take your 7 SRM and get Polar from the map pick game. I tear you up with my ERPPCs at range and finish you off with them SRMs when you get in range.

The problem is you have neither enough ranged DPS with just two ERPPCs without heatsinks to tear anything up, nor the close range DPS to finish anything off, let alone outbrawl a dedicated brawler. In fact you would have a better chance with just PPCs minus the SRMs, since your ranged DPS will increase due to extra heat sinks and you probably will be able to at least open a full brawler of your own tonnage before it gets in range.

KodiakGW, on 27 June 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

You take your 2ERPPC+2Gauss on Mining, I push into you with the team and take you down before your third alpha recycles.

LOL ... with the team, really? Your team has 12 brawlers, my team has 11 brawlers shielding my one 50-pinpoint-at-700m mech. At least two of your teammates are going to be open CT even before they get in range, that is two mech advantage right off the bat. You then either choose to brawl up my 11 fresh teammates with what you got left allowing me to carefully take out your rear side torsoes, legs and whatever I want ... or you rush me through my 11 teammates thus effectively killing me while suiciding your entire team.

Bringing up "teams" into equation hardly benefits your point. You can have a mixed team with 1 PPC and 2 SRMs on each mech vs a team of 2 PPCs on 6 mechs and 4 SRMs on 6 other mechs, and regardless of the setup the latter will win, because if you engage in a trade its 12 PPCs vs 12 PPCs, an already even trade that can go either way even without considering the fact that during said trade the remaining 6 full brawlers are closing in unopposed to slaughter your mixed frankenmechs. Even if you somehow manage to retreat from trading against 6 ranged mechs entirely, the damage would already be done, and the 24 SRMs vs 24 SRMs would end up on my favor since you are damaged while I am fresh. And before you say it, using additional PPCs in a brawl is just a waste of heat and DPS.

KodiakGW, on 27 June 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

Happens to me all the time when I boat. Glad it doesn't happen to you. Just sick of always needing to take LPL because I have no idea what map/mode I'm going to get.

It happens to all of us, what matters is how you approach it. When you boat you do one thing effectively and you stick to doing that one thing. When you don't boat you will simply try going against people who boat, and since boats will do only "their" thing you will literally lose every engagement you throw yourself at.

[FupDup]

Morderian, on 27 June 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

...in TT on the other hand many of this builds would BBQ my Pilot or make the mech not run for a long time (30 points over HS limit who cares i can fire another Alpha (strictly speaking not alpha but all weapongroups after another to evade Ghost heat)).

You really sure about that?

I'm going to make the classic 2 LPL + 4 ERML Timber Wolf using SSW.

Using the TT Omnimech rules, we can't strip armor so I need to add an ERSL to fill up the last 0.5 tons of pod space.

We have enough pod space to mount exactly 26 DHS with that weapon payload before we run out of critical slots.

In TT, these 26 DHS will dissipate 52 heat. Those 2 LPL + 4 ERML will generate 40 heat. Do the math. This build is impossible to overheat in Tabletop. You will never suffer penalties unless you suffer a lot of critical hits that disable your heatsinks. And I do mean a lot. You'll need to lose at least 5-6 DHS in combat damage before you start having to consider heat at all.

In fact, we could ditch a DHS and add a 5th ERML and still remain completely heat neutral. Going further, we can go all the way up to a 6th ERML and STILL find the space to mount enough DHS to sink all of that heat. Unfortunately, I had to remove the lower arm actuators for both arms, but the fact that this thing can sink all of that heat (50) with no waste heat is pretty crazy. Still have 11.5 tons of weight and only 3 critslots left unfilled...probably would want to use some more pulse lasers here.

The truth of the matter is that TT's heat system was more forgiving than any Mechwarrior game heat scale ever. Sure, you had incremental penalties, but you can BUILD YOUR MECH TO AVOID THE PENALTIES with obnoxiously trivial ease. TT is much friendlier to laser boats than MWO.

Edited by FupDup, 27 June 2017 - 09:01 AM.

[Morderian]

maybe you misunderstand me a bit, you can build those mechs but what i mean that here ingame you wont need that many Heatsinks to get them to acceptable levels which you can use for extra guns or other things (in your builds case i could handle it with 15 and 20 were cold for my standards and adding 2 more med las and its not an issue even for just 15 DHS) and this is what in my opinion makes mostly lasers a bit too tonnage effective and easily boatable as i can free tonnage that i should need for Heatsinks to atleast lower penalties and allowing to fit such setups on smaller chassis too

Edited by Morderian, 27 June 2017 - 09:54 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

FupDup, on 27 June 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

The truth of the matter is that TT's heat system was more forgiving than any Mechwarrior game heat scale ever.

You forgot to mention that TT turn actually lasts 10 seconds (5 seconds if you use Solaris rules). Something tells me that cooldowns on all MWO weapons are far shorter than that.

[Ultimax]

Pjwned, on 26 June 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

It probably wasn't implemented because it was bad, especially the part about varying amounts of firepower skills per chassis, and having a guaranteed amount of firepower skills is stupid because it removes the whole point of making choices.

In the current system, if you want more firepower nodes then you can give something else up, or conversely you can have less firepower nodes to have more of whatever else, and that automatically makes this system better than Solahma's proposal which removes that aspect just for the sake of appeasing crybabies.

I don't know why people still cling to that **** idea, just shut up about it; boo hoo this arbitrary trash idea that I uncritically accept as gospel wasn't implemented so I'm going to cry about it for months on end.

Well, I don't understand why long time vets who can't escape T3 feel compelled to discuss balance issues - but hey that's life eh?