677 replies to this topic

[AngrySpartan]

MischiefSC, on 01 July 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

Quit bringing mid range missiles with short range weapons.

Try that again with cermls and a ballistic. Scorch with 2xuac10, 2cerml and 4xatms for example. Play at 200-350m or so. Urion with 1xuac10, 2ceeml and 3x9 works too.

Missiles need faster and more health. Needs a declining damage inside 120m. A bit more ammo/ton. That would be solid.

that would be LRM+ weapon. Do you want another LRM?

And again ATMs do their damage at close range, anywhere beyound 270, I'll take LRMs as a fire support weapon.
Anyway - the point of the footage was to show that ATMs will never ever replace SRMs, so PGI, drop the damn minimum range and start balancing weapon from that point already.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 01 July 2017 - 02:27 PM.

[Longshotcanada]

nope the atms still suck short on ammo to much heat to slow to much weight srm and lrms are way better .

so what do the clans get in this new patch more machine guns and micro lasers .......

[Tesunie]

Longshotcanada, on 01 July 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

nope the atms still suck short on ammo to much heat to slow to much weight srm and lrms are way better .

so what do the clans get in this new patch more machine guns and micro lasers .......

Don't forget those heavy lasers.


Also, don't forget that a lot of the new IS tech is really just tech Clans already had. (Just so it's said.)

[MischiefSC]

AngrySpartan, on 01 July 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

that would be LRM+ weapon. Do you want another LRM?

And again ATMs do their damage at close range, anywhere beyound 270, I'll take LRMs as a fire support weapon.
Anyway - the point of the footage was to show that ATMs will never ever replace SRMs, so PGI, drop the damn minimum range and start balancing weapon from that point already.

It's a mid range, not long. Let's play tomorrow, you take LRMs and I'll take ATMs and we'll play beyond 270.

[Andi Nagasia]

ATMs defiantly need a Missile Health Buff, right now they have the same Health as LRMs,
they need to have the Same Health as SRMs if not more health than that as they move slower,

[AngrySpartan]

MischiefSC, on 01 July 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

It's a mid range, not long. Let's play tomorrow, you take LRMs and I'll take ATMs and we'll play beyond 270.

Deal. Anytime between 07:00 - 13:00 UTC time or 20:00+ UTC. If someone want to join as spectator or participant, just send a friend invite or message on PTS. I'll try to record that anyway( LRMs for duelling? That's just ridiculous under normal circumstances )

Andi Nagasia, on 01 July 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

ATMs defiantly need a Missile Health Buff, right now they have the same Health as LRMs,
they need to have the Same Health as SRMs if not more health than that as they move slower,

Don't forget ATMs have lower missile count in a salvo.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 01 July 2017 - 02:51 PM.

[Rusharn]

The only reason I can think as to why the PGI is not willing to remove the minimum range is because of the impact it will have on scouting making more clan mechs viable at longer ranges. I have also seen issues with the PTS server tracking the the dead zone range. Had several volleys were I was at 130m and the attack registers zero damage.

[AngrySpartan]

Rusharn, on 01 July 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

The only reason I can think as to why the PGI is not willing to remove the minimum range is because of the impact it will have on scouting making more clan mechs viable at longer ranges. I have also seen issues with the PTS server tracking the the dead zone range. Had several volleys were I was at 130m and the attack registers zero damage.

Scouting is just a 4v4 brawl. Range has nothing to do with that gamemode, it's just a Splatfest. In fact If anyone will bring current ATMs into souting, It's will be as efficient as bringing LRMs.

[Andi Nagasia]

AngrySpartan, on 01 July 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

Don't forget ATMs have lower missile count in a salvo.

True as well,

LRMs i think have 1Health per missile,
this i think needs to be buffed to 1.4 as per AMSs increased Range,

which means ATMs should have around 2.8Health as they have slightly less than LRM Missile Counts,
LRM20 having 20 Missiles to ATM9s 9, so i think having double LRMs Missile Health would be a good Start,
Note NARC missile has 2.5Health but also NARC has 500m Velocity, where ATMs only have 160m Velocity,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 01 July 2017 - 03:04 PM.

[Tesunie]

Andi Nagasia, on 01 July 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

True as well,

LRMs i think have 1Health per missile,
this i think needs to be buffed to 1.4 as per AMSs increased Range,

which means ATMs should have around 2.8Health as they have slightly less than LRM Missile Counts,
LRM20 having 20 Missiles to ATM9s 9, so i think having double LRMs Missile Health would be a good Start,
Note NARC missile has 2.5Health but also NARC has 500m Velocity, where ATMs only have 160m Velocity,

I kinda like ATMs being a little more susceptible to AMS, especially if it didn't have any minimum range. I think that would be an reasonable balancing point, and may make AMS a bit more desired instead of being considered "wasted tonnage" in higher levels of play.

I see it as a point of balance, depending upon how other things may be changed. With the minimum range as is (at 120m), then yes. Missile health and velocity could use some improvement.

[Andi Nagasia]

Tesunie, on 01 July 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

I kinda like ATMs being a little more susceptible to AMS, especially if it didn't have any minimum range. I think that would be an reasonable balancing point, and may make AMS a bit more desired instead of being considered "wasted tonnage" in higher levels of play.

I see it as a point of balance, depending upon how other things may be changed. With the minimum range as is (at 120m), then yes. Missile health and velocity could use some improvement.

the problem i have is that with LaserAMS everyone can mount AMS and not worry about ammo,
it will instantly become common use on most Mechs i think which will hurt LRMs & ATMs mostly because their Speed,

[Tesunie]

Andi Nagasia, on 01 July 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

the problem i have is that with LaserAMS everyone can mount AMS and not worry about ammo,
it will instantly become common use on most Mechs i think which will hurt LRMs & ATMs mostly because their Speed,

I can see that, but do also recall that LAMS will produce heat, possibly enough to even shut down a mech. If I have my LRMs and I see a laser show going off, I'll keep shooting to hinder their heat production. Though I can see it being useful on low heat builds such as Gauss heavy builds.

[Top Leliel]

The minimum range makes the ATM missiles feel very awkward. The whole point is they are supposed to be more versatile than other missiles, and the min range messes with that.

[SmokedJag]

Rusharn, on 01 July 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

tl;dr: SRM's, Streaks and ATM's have enough differences between the systems that each system will have its role and be selected based on that pilots needed performance of his mech.

Streaks and SRM's will not be obsolete if ATM's have zero minimum range.

Advantages:

Streaks, bone track with near perfect maneuverability, lightning speed, good range for a short range missile system at 360m, nearly immune to AMS, and are lighter with more Ammo per ton.

SRM's Fire their full volley at the same time for a shotgun splat effect, Take up less crits slots even with Artemis, are not negatively effected by ECM, allow for more precise component targeting, more ammo per ton, are nearly immune to AMS.

The ATMs as they currently stand, if they had minimum range removed, would have following the features; Short Range damage, moderate mid range damage, LRM missile tracking, built in Artemis.

Listing only the positives each one of these missile systems brings a unique advantage.

Disadvantages:

Streaks: Bone tracking does not allow targeting for specific components, cannot fire without a missile lock, vulnerable to ECM requiring active probe for best effect.

SRM's: Completely skill based targeting making hits against targets further away harder to make, short maximum range.

ATM's: low velocity stream fire makes missiles vulnerable to AMS, Low velocity stream fire with LRM tracking makes it difficult to score full volley hits on fast or maneuverable targets especially that are close, Stream fire allows damage from larger launchers to be spread easier through torso twisting aided by incoming missile warning, vulnerable to ECM requiring active probe for best effect, lowest ammo per ton putting a premium on space and weight, low shot's per ton require more frugal management of ammo during combat, largest crit requirement of the weapon systems, Hottest weapon system, longer cool down.

Each weapons system has it's pros and it's con's. The ATM's have a lot of con's that off set it's high damage at short range and users of ATM's will be having to fight hard for every point of damage.

If PGI does not want to remove the minimum range then they will have to compromise in other areas if they want pilots to use the system and have the system be effective. In order I would; significantly lower heat, more ammo per ton, more velocity, tighter spread. If those stats are not improved then the minimum range will keep the weapon from being used.

Good summation.

ATMs aren't going to supplant SRMs even with no minimum range. I understand what PGI is afraid of (100+ homing damage) but splat has been a thing for a long time. ATM24 is still "only" the 72 points of damage SRM splat builds get and requires 20 tons of payload (three tons of ammo per launcher) minimum. That's a lot of tons of missile, it *should* hurt and very few 'Mechs will be carrying more than that.

Edited by SmokedJag, 01 July 2017 - 04:02 PM.

[o0cipher0o]

MischiefSC, on 01 July 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

Quit bringing mid range missiles with short range weapons.

Try that again with cermls and a ballistic. Scorch with 2xuac10, 2cerml and 4xatms for example. Play at 200-350m or so. Urion with 1xuac10, 2ceeml and 3x9 works too.

Missiles need faster and more health. Needs a declining damage inside 120m. A bit more ammo/ton. That would be solid.

I've been running a mad dog with 6 atm3s and 4 cerml the whole evening.
The results were average at best, and most of my damage was coming from the lasers. I only had two really good matches, and just because the enemies where kind enough to stare at me while standing still, letting me hitting their CTs without effort, and no one had a single AMS in both matches.

So, Right now, the ATMs make just for a passable secondary weapon. Every single match i just wanted to go back to my usual build, that is 6 ASRM4s with 5 cersl.
Also, as soon as my STs got stripped, even a single stray hit caused pretty much all of the ATM launchers in that ST to be destroyed.


ATMs are way too situational, too fragile, too unreliable and simply not weight/space efficient enough to be considered good in any way.

Edited by o0cipher0o, 01 July 2017 - 04:18 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Tesunie, on 01 July 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

I can see that, but do also recall that LAMS will produce heat, possibly enough to even shut down a mech. If I have my LRMs and I see a laser show going off, I'll keep shooting to hinder their heat production. Though I can see it being useful on low heat builds such as Gauss heavy builds.

actually tested this in MechWarrior Academy,
took a 3LaserAMS NVA, went into the City, Stayed in the water mechs LRM me,
First off i can say that AMS Overload doesnt work with LaserAMS(Which i think is a Bug)
second 3LaserAMS with out Overload kills LRM 35(as you will still get hit with 2x20, but not 15+20)
with that in my NVA(3AMS 12ERSL +6DHS) though it was cool with Volley fire,
Stream fire/Constant Fire, i was over heating in 16seocnds,

i see them being a problem in mass, if the whole team takes 1LasAMS, it wont really over heat you,
so having 1LasAMS isnt bad at all, and i would recommend everyone take one if they can,
sadly this recommendation hurts ATMs but i think LasAMS are worth having in my opinion,

[Scout Derek]

ATMs got their min range reduced recently; so, putting the vote no for now until further notice.

[Tesunie]

Scout Derek, on 01 July 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

ATMs got their min range reduced recently; so, putting the vote no for now until further notice.

You can also always delete your vote and have no vote till you've tested it more... But that is your choice. Just saying as an FYI.

Andi Nagasia, on 01 July 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

actually tested this in MechWarrior Academy,
took a 3LaserAMS NVA, went into the City, Stayed in the water mechs LRM me,
First off i can say that AMS Overload doesnt work with LaserAMS(Which i think is a Bug)
second 3LaserAMS with out Overload kills LRM 35(as you will still get hit with 2x20, but not 15+20)
with that in my NVA(3AMS 12ERSL +6DHS) though it was cool with Volley fire,
Stream fire/Constant Fire, i was over heating in 16seocnds,

i see them being a problem in mass, if the whole team takes 1LasAMS, it wont really over heat you,
so having 1LasAMS isnt bad at all, and i would recommend everyone take one if they can,
sadly this recommendation hurts ATMs but i think LasAMS are worth having in my opinion,

Someone else earlier in this thread (I believe) was complaining that LAMS against ATM/LRM tests had the triple LAMS Nova shutting down constantly (or against LRMs it did).

Edit: As a note, AMS effectiveness does depend upon the position in relation to the path of the missiles. If they are the target, it is less effective. If the missile path is going clean over the mech, than it will take out even more missiles. Just as a note and something many people don't consider.

Edited by Tesunie, 01 July 2017 - 04:30 PM.

[Khobai]

ATMs should have no min range at all.

[MischiefSC]

No no imum but damage falloff inside 120m, faster speed, higher health.