677 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Otherwise it's a bit too much. The ballistic flight path is what makes ATMs good; you've got a locking, ballistic path missile to stack with ballistic weapons like, well, ballistics and lasers. That's where ATMs shine - augmenting direct fire. That's what makes them better than LRMs.

But... I already have been doing that at mid ranges with my LRMs and ERMLs on my Huntsmen since Oct. That's a 58 point mid range alpha. Does this mean I'm now ahead of the proposed missile meta?

But yeah, did you see the weight and crit slots ATMs take up? The cooldown? There are mechs out there that would be hard pressed to mix weapons so much, besides non-omni mechs maybe? I know my Huntsmen becomes hard pressed due to the low tonnage per crit slot of ATMs (aka: They take up a lot of crit slots, despite their weight). Unless I find some heavy low crit weapon to off set, I'm running under tonnage. (ERLLs and ATMs maybe?)

SRMs actually would still have plenty of reason to be taken over ATMs even if ATMs don't have a minimum range. I've mentioned it before, such as cooldown, weight, ammo/damage per ton (you need to invest more tonnage towards ATM), Crit space, susceptibility to AMS... Seriously, take some AMS if ATMs would be so scary to you. Fewer missiles being launched and a slower velocity would mean that more missiles get shot down and for every missile being shot down (when compared to SRMs) means that much more damage is being negated. Lets just even say that they shoot down the same number of missiles per volley. For every SRM missile being shot down, it's preventing 2 damage in that brawl. For every ATM being shot down, it's 3 and there are even fewer missiles going out.


Personally, I'd love to see minimum ranges turned off. Then do another test session. If your fears come to light and ATMs start running all over the place stomping everything (despite people taking counters for it), than it could always be changed again before release.

Right now, what I'm seeing is, AMS wrecking ATMs. A single AMS is negating several ATM launchers (depending upon the size). Fighting against a triple AMS mech? Good luck. LRMs have a better time punching through that. And SRMs? Most of them don't even get shot down by AMS...

So far, ATMs have been working like under performing LRMs. And I already know your opinion of LRMs...

[Duvanor]

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Again. You're completely missing the point.

The fundamental balancing factor for SRMs as a brawling weapon is that they don't lock, so if you've got a ballistic or laser weapon setup plus SRMs (which many do, or can) you have to aim them separately to get accurate hits or get the enemy to come straight at you for an extended period. This breaks synergy with SRMs and forces you to either use all SRMs or deal with having to aim 2 different places for 2 different weapons, like the SRM + SPL TBR as a famous (and still very effective) example.

Streaks spread their damage all over a mech by their nature and have an insane cooldown. They are not a brawling weapon against anything but lights.

ATMs however DO lock, have a pretty ballistic flight path meaning that they would be the best possible brawling weapon because they would keep synergy with direct fire weapons.

That means my Orion IIC with LB20X, 2xMPL and 3xATM9 has an alpha of 116 at a 1.19 heat management and 6 total tons of ammo and runs 70kph.

Brawling alpha of 116, with about the same spread as SRMs on they lock so I'm getting even better accuracy and synergy with my direct fire weapons.

Having a 180m minimum range breaks synergy between the ATMs and the big brawling weapons like LB 20X. Sure, I can still take that god awful monster in to brawl - however inside 180m I'm missing the bulk of my fire. Probably better going with a pair of UAC5s, 2 CERMLs and staying at mid range. It's still a flat out stupid amount of DPS but at least someone can close to point blank and deal with me.

Otherwise it's a bit too much. The ballistic flight path is what makes ATMs good; you've got a locking, ballistic path missile to stack with ballistic weapons like, well, ballistics and lasers. That's where ATMs shine - augmenting direct fire. That's what makes them better than LRMs.

Nice to see how you not even consider my post and go on and on making assumptions.

Compared to SRMs less damage will be dealt. Your theoretical 116 alpha will not be a 116 alpha cause your missiles are prone to AMS and misses through spread. Every single missile shot down by AMS means 3 less damage. I would take SRMs with Artemis over ATM for brawling any day.

And of course in a mid range fight your ATMs will be less efficient than LRM 20. Soo, why should you take ATMs again?

Edited by Duvanor, 29 June 2017 - 03:51 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Tesunie, on 29 June 2017 - 03:48 PM, said:

But... I already have been doing that at mid ranges with my LRMs and ERMLs on my Huntsmen since Oct. That's a 58 point mid range alpha. Does this mean I'm now ahead of the proposed missile meta?

But yeah, did you see the weight and crit slots ATMs take up? The cooldown? There are mechs out there that would be hard pressed to mix weapons so much, besides non-omni mechs maybe? I know my Huntsmen becomes hard pressed due to the low tonnage per crit slot of ATMs (aka: They take up a lot of crit slots, despite their weight). Unless I find some heavy low crit weapon to off set, I'm running under tonnage. (ERLLs and ATMs maybe?)

SRMs actually would still have plenty of reason to be taken over ATMs even if ATMs don't have a minimum range. I've mentioned it before, such as cooldown, weight, ammo/damage per ton (you need to invest more tonnage towards ATM), Crit space, susceptibility to AMS... Seriously, take some AMS if ATMs would be so scary to you. Fewer missiles being launched and a slower velocity would mean that more missiles get shot down and for every missile being shot down (when compared to SRMs) means that much more damage is being negated. Lets just even say that they shoot down the same number of missiles per volley. For every SRM missile being shot down, it's preventing 2 damage in that brawl. For every ATM being shot down, it's 3 and there are even fewer missiles going out.


Personally, I'd love to see minimum ranges turned off. Then do another test session. If your fears come to light and ATMs start running all over the place stomping everything (despite people taking counters for it), than it could always be changed again before release.

Right now, what I'm seeing is, AMS wrecking ATMs. A single AMS is negating several ATM launchers (depending upon the size). Fighting against a triple AMS mech? Good luck. LRMs have a better time punching through that. And SRMs? Most of them don't even get shot down by AMS...

So far, ATMs have been working like under performing LRMs. And I already know your opinion of LRMs...

ATMs at mid range are doing more damage and more viably with the faster, flatter trajectory. They sync well with ballistics. If they have no minimum range they're the best possible brawling weapon.

Again, currently I'm playing an Orion with a 116pt alpha.

116 pts.

If I could brawl with it like that it would be OP AF.

[Duvanor]

Mid range more like a 89 alpha, right? I can have an alpha of 80 if I switch your 3 ATM9 to 3 LRM15 + Artemis and am less prone to AMS, get tighter missile spread and more damage per ton ammo.

[o0cipher0o]

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Again. You're completely missing the point.

The fundamental balancing factor for SRMs as a brawling weapon is that they don't lock, so if you've got a ballistic or laser weapon setup plus SRMs (which many do, or can) you have to aim them separately to get accurate hits or get the enemy to come straight at you for an extended period. This breaks synergy with SRMs and forces you to either use all SRMs or deal with having to aim 2 different places for 2 different weapons, like the SRM + SPL TBR as a famous (and still very effective) example.

Streaks spread their damage all over a mech by their nature and have an insane cooldown. They are not a brawling weapon against anything but lights.

ATMs however DO lock, have a pretty ballistic flight path meaning that they would be the best possible brawling weapon because they would keep synergy with direct fire weapons.

That means my Orion IIC with LB20X, 2xMPL and 3xATM9 has an alpha of 116 at a 1.19 heat management and 6 total tons of ammo and runs 70kph.

Brawling alpha of 116, with about the same spread as SRMs on they lock so I'm getting even better accuracy and synergy with my direct fire weapons.

Having a 180m minimum range breaks synergy between the ATMs and the big brawling weapons like LB 20X. Sure, I can still take that god awful monster in to brawl - however inside 180m I'm missing the bulk of my fire. Probably better going with a pair of UAC5s, 2 CERMLs and staying at mid range. It's still a flat out stupid amount of DPS but at least someone can close to point blank and deal with me.

Otherwise it's a bit too much. The ballistic flight path is what makes ATMs good; you've got a locking, ballistic path missile to stack with ballistic weapons like, well, ballistics and lasers. That's where ATMs shine - augmenting direct fire. That's what makes them better than LRMs.


Edited -
after playing the Orion above I switched to 2x CERMLs and added 2 more tons of ATM ammo.

I say increase velocity and ammo/ton. Leave the minimum range.

Meh, tried a scorch with 4 atm9. The first match was damn good, lots of damage and really effective. Luckily, my enemies didn't have any AMS, and tended to stay still while engaging, so it was really easy to keep them in the 90m optimal window.

Then, in the following matches, i started encountering people with LASMs and that actually moved while engaging, and things went south pretty fast. Heck, at some point there where two enemy mechs close to each other, both with a LASM. Those two LASM where shooting down pretty much my entire volleys of ATMs (4 or 5 ATMs made it to the target, on 32 fired ATMs).

And guess what, right now pretty much no one is running ATMs on the PTS, and the few that i've seen uding them, have been performing quite poorly.

Oh, and be advised, this comes from a guy, that uses prevalently IS mechs (And of the few clan mechs i use, the mad dog is the only one sporting missiles, SRMs, for instance, and i would NEVER swap those SRMs for ATMs, even with the total removal of the min range)

Edited by o0cipher0o, 29 June 2017 - 03:58 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Duvanor, on 29 June 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

Nice to see how you not even consider my post and go on and on making assumptions.

Compared to SRMs less damage will be dealt. Your theoretical 116 alpha will not be a 116 alpha cause your missiles are prone to AMS and misses through spread. Every single missile shot down by AMS means 3 less damage. I would take SRMs with Artemis over ATM for brawling any day.

And of course in a mid range fight your ATMs will be less efficient than LRM 20. Soo, why should you take ATMs again?

Except at brawling range AMS won't kill more than a couple of missiles. Also at close range it spreads only a bit more than SRMs, not a ton.

At mid range? Sure, make them survive AMS like SRMs do, leave the minimum range, add ammo/ton and increase velocity a bit and you've got a great mid range weapon.

Remove minimum and it's OP for brawling.

[Tesunie]

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

ATMs at mid range are doing more damage and more viably with the faster, flatter trajectory. They sync well with ballistics. If they have no minimum range they're the best possible brawling weapon.

Again, currently I'm playing an Orion with a 116pt alpha.

116 pts.

If I could brawl with it like that it would be OP AF.

Well, here is the thing, SRMs have a velocity of 400. ATMs? 160. That's some difference, which is another reason AMS has even more of an effect on ATMs. So, unless you are face hugging your opponent with ATMs, if they brought an AMS it's going to really hit ATM users hard. (And less face it, if you are hugging an enemy with close range weapons... They have things to be worried about.) Not to mention SRMs can be aimed.

Another thing to consider, we can propose several different things here. We could adjust ATMs cooldown, making it so SRMs shoot more often (Alpha vs DPS). It's also been suggested to be rid of a hard minimum range and instead have a ramp down range (ramp the damage down the closer you get from a set range). We could increase spread... Plenty of options.

Also, what about ghost heat limitations? We could place more harsher ghost heat limitations on ATMs, instead of a similar style of SRM Ghost Heat. Make it attempt to limit the amount of damage that can be alphaed all at once from ATMs (going by largest size on the mech for ghost heat limits).

All I know right now is, ATMs are basically useless in the PTS. LRMs and SRMs are a superior choice with very few exceptions. In fact, making an SRM and LRM build would provide the same basic role of ATMs but be stronger in nearly every way, despite being a mixed build at that time...


Something needs to be changed on ATMs. What that can be is up to debate. I personally feel either removing the minimum range, reducing it (greatly), or having a ramp down minimum range is something this weapon needs. It's probably the only thing it needs and then I believe it will be a good solid choice.

[Duvanor]

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 04:01 PM, said:

Except at brawling range AMS won't kill more than a couple of missiles. Also at close range it spreads only a bit more than SRMs, not a ton.

At mid range? Sure, make them survive AMS like SRMs do, leave the minimum range, add ammo/ton and increase velocity a bit and you've got a great mid range weapon.

Remove minimum and it's OP for brawling.

Can they, in your opinion, target single components as easy as SRMs? And did you consider the longer cooldown?

Edited by Duvanor, 29 June 2017 - 04:12 PM.

[Tesunie]

Duvanor, on 29 June 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

Can they, in your opinion, target single components as easy as SRMs? And did you consider the longer cooldown?

Actually, I just checked that. ATMs have 4-5 second cooldown. SRM has a 2-4 second cooldown. SRM4s would hold an advantage. Boated SRM2s would wreck on the cooldown (but we don't really see those being used). SRM6s? They are comparable to ATM3-6 on cooldown.

In general, for the most common SRM in used (SRM4), ATMs do have longer cooldowns. So I believe SRMs still would hold an advantage even against no minimum range ATMs.


Edit: Correction, the ATM3 has a cooldown of 4. The ATM6 and ATM9 has 5 and the ATM12 has 6. So, yeah. SRMs still would have good alpha as well as better DPS.

Edited by Tesunie, 29 June 2017 - 04:17 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Except I can keep shooting someone several times before they're in brawling range.

You want them to have the same damage falloff as CLRMs inside 180? Sure.

However no minimum and 3 damage/missile and locking inside 180m? No.

Increase ammo/ton, increase velocity, make them as durable as SRMs vs AMS and you've got a great mid range missile weapon that stacks well with direct fire. Even as is I'm crushing it with mixed ballistics or lasers plus ATMs on the PTS most the time.

It does not need to be the optimal brawling weapon.

[Duvanor]

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

Except I can keep shooting someone several times before they're in brawling range.

You want them to have the same damage falloff as CLRMs inside 180? Sure.

However no minimum and 3 damage/missile and locking inside 180m? No.

Increase ammo/ton, increase velocity, make them as durable as SRMs vs AMS and you've got a great mid range missile weapon that stacks well with direct fire. Even as is I'm crushing it with mixed ballistics or lasers plus ATMs on the PTS most the time.

It does not need to be the optimal brawling weapon.

The point of this balance discussion is not to get the best brawling weapon but a descent multi-purpose weapon. Limiting the ATM to mid range as you suggest would bring nothing new. Just a bad LRM launcher or if you buff it enough a better LRM launcher that makes current LRM launchers redundant.

What we need is something that can be used at any range but not better than LRM or SRM in their given range brackets.

Edited by Duvanor, 29 June 2017 - 04:40 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Duvanor, on 29 June 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

The point of this balance discussion is not to get the best brawling weapon but a descent multi-purpose weapon. Limiting the ATM to mid range as you suggest would bring nothing new. Just a bad LRM launcher or if you buff it enough a better LRM launcher that makes current LRM launchers redundant.

What we need is something that can be used at any range but not better than LRM or SRM in their given range brackets.

So give it damage falloff inside of 180m. If I can lock and shoot the MRMs for 3 damage/missile in close range it's the best brawling weapon for the tonnage, by far.

Make them go 300ms, as durable as SRMs vs AMS. Leave them with minimum range or at least steep damage falloff.

The ballistic trajectory has made them just awesome in concert with direct fire. I've been enjoying them and having an easy time doing 400-700 damage. They seem to really, really like legs.

Edited by MischiefSC, 29 June 2017 - 05:22 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Again. You're completely missing the point.

The fundamental balancing factor for SRMs as a brawling weapon is that they don't lock, so if you've got a ballistic or laser weapon setup plus SRMs (which many do, or can) you have to aim them separately to get accurate hits or get the enemy to come straight at you for an extended period. This breaks synergy with SRMs and forces you to either use all SRMs or deal with having to aim 2 different places for 2 different weapons, like the SRM + SPL TBR as a famous (and still very effective) example.

yes but this is true Normally with Ballistics and Lasers as you have to aim those seperatly as well,
or Ballistics and SRMs, its best to fire like weapons together, Lasers to Lasers UACs to UACs, SRMs to SRMs,
this wont change that,

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Streaks spread their damage all over a mech by their nature and have an insane cooldown. They are not a brawling weapon against anything but lights.

which ATMs share, 5.2 Spread(which cant be reduced) and 5Sec Cooldown, as well as 160Velocity,
that make them inferior to SSRM2-4 completely, also with their Spread & speed they are less effecitve vs Lights,
so SSRMs will maintain their use as Anti Light weapons even with ATMs having 0MinRange,

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

ATMs however DO lock, have a pretty ballistic flight path meaning that they would be the best possible brawling weapon because they would keep synergy with direct fire weapons.

assuming they got 0Min Range, maybe at 0-270m Range, but Staring is usually a bad thing to do in brawling,
usually you want to Fire and Twist, Fire and Twist, Staring at a target to make sure you do Damage isnt good,

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

That means my Orion IIC with LB20X, 2xMPL and 3xATM9 has an alpha of 116 at a 1.19 heat management and 6 total tons of ammo and runs 70kph.

Brawling alpha of 116, with about the same spread as SRMs on they lock so I'm getting even better accuracy and synergy with my direct fire weapons.

ya and i just tested what an Alpha with that build would do on the Test Server,

i can tell with near 100% certendy that Alpha'ing this Build is a Bad idea,
this does not seem like a Good Build to me in any way, let alone a good build for Brawling,
also note that ATM9s have 5.2Spread, and hit all over, changing their Min Range doesnt Change this Fact,

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Having a 180m minimum range breaks synergy between the ATMs and the big brawling weapons like LB 20X. Sure, I can still take that god awful monster in to brawl - however inside 180m I'm missing the bulk of my fire. Probably better going with a pair of UAC5s, 2 CERMLs and staying at mid range. It's still a flat out stupid amount of DPS but at least someone can close to point blank and deal with me.

again when Brawling the Last thing you want to do is Stare for any length of time,
you want to Fire and Twist, Fire and Twist, Staring which is what All Lockon Weapons force isnt good for Brawling,

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Otherwise it's a bit too much. The ballistic flight path is what makes ATMs good; you've got a locking, ballistic path missile to stack with ballistic weapons like, well, ballistics and lasers. That's where ATMs shine - augmenting direct fire. That's what makes them better than LRMs.

im sorry MinRange doesnt Matter for Lockon weapons, if your at 40m or 400m,
if the Spread is 5.2 it will be 5.2 at All Ranges, the fact that the Missiles self adjust forces this,
they arnt like SRMs where if you get in someones face they have less spread,
with Lockon weapons what you see is what you get, at all ranges,

[davoodoo]

Ppl again forget that missiles being missiles have ridiculous spread even with skills and artemis.

Lets take streakcrow, cssrm30 which yields us 60 dmg for a medium mech at pretty decent heat management.
What is this mech useful at besides popping lights??

Edited by davoodoo, 29 June 2017 - 05:18 PM.

[Tesunie]

Andi Nagasia, on 29 June 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

im sorry MinRange doesnt Matter for Lockon weapons, if your at 40m or 400m,
if the Spread is 5.2 it will be 5.2 at All Ranges, the fact that the Missiles self adjust forces this,
they arnt like SRMs where if you get in someones face they have less spread,
with Lockon weapons what you see is what you get, at all ranges,

I would like to comment that you are only in part true.

Take a SSRM launcher. Place it right up against another mech's hull(?). Pull trigger. You'll find all the missiles hit that one location. Same can happen with ATMs. But then again, if an enemy mech can basically "ram" you to do this, you've probably got other issues to worry about... (It would only be OP in some very specific situations. A minimum range of 10m could solve that problem?)

[MischiefSC]

Again, what I'm for is increase velocity, ammo/ton. Possibly give them a down scaling damage inside 180 so they're not totally worthless but at the very least drop them to 1 damage/missile.

This keeps SRMs viable. With locking ATMs you don't need ot aim them separate like SRMs - that's the point.

I've foudn them crushingly successful for mid range poking with Clan ballistics and lasers.

[Andi Nagasia]

Tesunie, on 29 June 2017 - 05:29 PM, said:

I would like to comment that you are only in part true.

Take a SSRM launcher. Place it right up against another mech's hull(?). Pull trigger. You'll find all the missiles hit that one location. Same can happen with ATMs. But then again, if an enemy mech can basically "ram" you to do this, you've probably got other issues to worry about... (It would only be OP in some very specific situations. A minimum range of 10m could solve that problem?)

well yes, but if your 20m or more they will spread to their intended targets,
you can test this by going into testing grounds, with an SSRM6 and Fire at a target at 20m,
they will spread about as if you were 200m away, their Tracking is that good,

so face hugging aside their shouldnt be a problem here,
and i dont think balancing around what if i face hug is a good idea,
technicly if i face hug with any Spread weapon Spread doesnt matter, if your close enough,
but for lockon weapons you have to be closer than 20m to nigate that spread, at that range your better off with a UAC20,

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

Again, what I'm for is increase velocity, ammo/ton. Possibly give them a down scaling damage inside 180 so they're not totally worthless but at the very least drop them to 1 damage/missile.

This keeps SRMs viable. With locking ATMs you don't need ot aim them separate like SRMs - that's the point.

I've foudn them crushingly successful for mid range poking with Clan ballistics and lasers.

they still need their Min Range reduced, even if its to 90m SSRMs and SRMs will still be Viable,
dont believe me jump on the PTS and test the Spread of ATMs at 90m, they still 4.2m-5.2m spread,

[Tesunie]

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

I've foudn them crushingly successful for mid range poking with Clan ballistics and lasers.

And, not that anyone seems to believe me, I've been finding LRMs about as good on current live servers as a mid range weapon combined with ballistics and/or lasers. Actually, better due to LRMs flexibility as a possible indirect weapon.

[MischiefSC]

Tesunie, on 29 June 2017 - 06:12 PM, said:

And, not that anyone seems to believe me, I've been finding LRMs about as good on current live servers as a mid range weapon combined with ballistics and/or lasers. Actually, better due to LRMs flexibility as a possible indirect weapon.

Andi Nagasia, on 29 June 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

well yes, but if your 20m or more they will spread to their intended targets,
you can test this by going into testing grounds, with an SSRM6 and Fire at a target at 20m,
they will spread about as if you were 200m away, their Tracking is that good,

so face hugging aside their shouldnt be a problem here,
and i dont think balancing around what if i face hug is a good idea,
technicly if i face hug with any Spread weapon Spread doesnt matter, if your close enough,
but for lockon weapons you have to be closer than 20m to nigate that spread, at that range your better off with a UAC20,


they still need their Min Range reduced, even if its to 90m SSRMs and SRMs will still be Viable,
dont believe me jump on the PTS and test the Spread of ATMs at 90m, they still 4.2m-5.2m spread,

There's a lot of ways to tweak ATMs, faster trajectory, more ammo/ton and SRM levels of durability are IMO the best way. Reduce damage inside 180m to 1pt/missile so they're flat out inferior in brawling to SRMs but not worthless. This makes them solid in ways LRMs are not. Keep the flat trajectory, that's a *perk*, not a flaw.

The goal is to make them something that complements direct fire in a useful way. Their damage/ton in their optimal range bracket is incredible. 36 damage from a 7 ton launcher. The point is to make it possible to out-range them OR out-brawl them, leaving both LRMs (in their way and with direct fire) better for boating at long range and SRMs better at brawling and ATMs both more flexible than either and better at mid-range trading alongside a ballistic or energy loadout.

[Lightfoot]

HE ammo has no minimum range. Anyway, even with Line of Sight my ATMs are still hitting the ground, fix that. ATMs would at least elevate over ground clutter. They have infrared laser guidance to enable that ability.

Edited by Lightfoot, 29 June 2017 - 06:48 PM.