23 replies to this topic

[DGTLDaemon]

So, Mad Cat MkII is coming out in less than a month, and some people are already calling it potentially OP because it can (probably) support the dual Gauss + dual PPC build. PGI have a bad history of applying blanket nerfs to entire chassis because of a couple of offending builds. Good examples are the Kodiaks and the Night Gyrs, all suffering for the sins of KDK-3 and PPFLD poptarts, respectively. I strongly urge PGI to use logic and common sense this time, and find ways to address specific builds that may end up outside the power curve instead of nerf-hammering the entire chassis into the ground. One way to do it is to use weapon-specific negative quirks. Yes, I know, nobody likes negative quirks. But I would rather see Mad Cat MkII have something like "+10% PPC heat" or "+10% Gauss cooldown" than have it rendered useless due to abysmal mobility (which seems to be PGI's preferred way of nerfing overperforming mechs these days). Just use your head, guys, OK? Not everyone is interested in playing the PPFLD meta. There are a lot of other interesting builds that may end up ruined because someone got scared of a 50-point front-loaded alpha.

[Snazzy Dragon]

"probably"

there's a thing called math and mechlabbing

we can do dual gauss ppc on a 75 tonner (with a bit of leg skimping, but still)

why WOULDN'T a 90 ton CLAN BATTLEMECH be capable of it?

Anyway in a far away time in a magical twitter post or somesuch Russ said they'd never balance by negative quirks again... or something. The very few that remain are really insignificant. Also pretty sure the members of Clan Crocodile Tears and Gyrok's IS Gundam OP club would throw an absolute fit about it. We already had a mass panic over clan gauss always exploding on crits "just because it's 3 tons lighter and takes up less slots"

[Y E O N N E]

Serious question:

Do you, personally, know how to play a power position 'Mech?

[DGTLDaemon]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 June 2017 - 11:55 PM, said:

Serious question:

Do you, personally, know how to play a power position 'Mech?

Define "power position mech", please. This term is unknown to me

Snazzy Dragon, on 28 June 2017 - 11:55 PM, said:

Also pretty sure the members of Clan Crocodile Tears and Gyrok's IS Gundam OP club would throw an absolute fit about it.

Imagine the fit they and every other Clan player will throw if the Mad Cat MkII ends up with the mobility of the Dire Wolf.

Edited by DGTLDaemon, 29 June 2017 - 12:03 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

DGTLDaemon, on 29 June 2017 - 12:00 AM, said:

Define "power position mech", please. This term is unknown to me

It exposes and stays exposed and commands the field by being able to put significant damage down-range. The position is chosen such that the enemy can't really maneuver without taking hits from you. Such builds are also often interchangeable with push-type builds, because they generally have solid sustained DPS.

So they either sit in a spot hosing targets as they present, moving only as needed, or they are pushing and driving the enemy backward.

It is the exact opposite of a poking 'Mech.

The reason I ask is, from all of your recent posts, it sounds like the only thing you know how to do is poke and, as a result, have been lamenting whenever one of the 'Mechs which was overly good at poking is made to be less good at it.

[DGTLDaemon]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 June 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

It exposes and stays exposed and commands the field by being able to put significant damage down-range. The position is chosen such that the enemy can't really maneuver without taking hits from you. Such builds are also often interchangeable with push-type builds, because they generally have solid sustained DPS.

So they either sit in a spot hosing targets as they present, moving only as needed, or they are pushing and driving the enemy backward.

It is the exact opposite of a poking 'Mech.

In my experience, playing in such manner absolutely requires one thing - devastating firepower that would make your opponents scared sh*tless of you, and PGI have been working hard lately to make sure no mech commands such firepower. I used to play my KDK-3 with quad UAC10s in exactly this way, before the UAC jam nerf. Right now I'm experimenting with a 2xLPL+6xMPL SNV-1, and yes, that 69-point alpha can often shut down a whole enemy lance, and make them reluctant to poke back at you. But very few mechs and builds are capable of this playstyle, especially in Tier 1 where people generally know how to focus down exposed targets. I'm regularly seeing Atlases attempting to play in this manner, and it usually ends badly for them. In other words, to play like that, you need to be piloting an OP mech that nobody will dare stare at.

Quote

The reason I ask is, from all of your recent posts, it sounds like the only thing you know how to do is poke and, as a result, have been lamenting whenever one of the 'Mechs which was overly good at poking is made to be less good at it.

Not exactly, I'd rather describe my playstyle as "aggressive and dynamic" - poking, flanking, backstabbing, repositioning, switching between targets, always looling for an advantage, like an isolated target or an enemy mech that's engaged with my teammates and is not looking at me. I think "skirmisher" would also be a good definition of my playstyle. If I was strictly a poking type of guy, I would be looking forward to the opportunity to play MadCat MkII with 2xGauss+2xPPC, regardless of what mobility PGI gives it, because jump jets will make it a perfect poptart anyway. But I'm not. I'm thinking of other builds, like dual UAC10s with some lasers, and I'm thinking of how badly they'll be ruined if PGI get scared of that single PPFLD build.

Edited by DGTLDaemon, 29 June 2017 - 12:41 AM.

[Luminis]

Instead of nerfing every chassis that can do the Gauss / PPC Combo because it's OP, nerf the damn combo!

Low heat, high weight PPFLD weapon + high heat, low weight PPFLD weapon is the broken interaction. Change that and we're good. Easier than to stomp every Clan 'Mech that can field the combo somewhat well. Dunno, put PPCs and Gausses in the same Ghost Heat group and call it a day.

Boom, no more 50dmg PPFLD alpha and we can have Assaults that don't move like crap.

[Vxheous]

Luminis, on 29 June 2017 - 01:58 AM, said:

Instead of nerfing every chassis that can do the Gauss / PPC Combo because it's OP, nerf the damn combo!

Low heat, high weight PPFLD weapon + high heat, low weight PPFLD weapon is the broken interaction. Change that and we're good. Easier than to stomp every Clan 'Mech that can field the combo somewhat well. Dunno, put PPCs and Gausses in the same Ghost Heat group and call it a day.

Boom, no more 50dmg PPFLD alpha and we can have Assaults that don't move like crap.

The moment that happens, clan laser vomit becomes king again (and it's already in a really good place right now). The only thing keeping clan laser vomit in check at the moment is the fact that clan laser vomit mechs take 1.125s to dump full burn onto target, which gives poptart PPFLD a window to drop that 50 damage and duck.

Then they'll nerf lasers again, and the cycle will just continue

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 29 June 2017 - 04:12 AM.

[Luminis]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 29 June 2017 - 04:10 AM, said:

The moment that happens, clan laser vomit becomes king again (and it's already in a really good place right now). The only thing keeping clan laser vomit in check at the moment is the fact that clan laser vomit mechs take 1.125s to dump full burn onto target, which gives poptart PPFLD a window to drop that 50 damage and duck.

Then they'll nerf lasers again, and the cycle will just continue

Same goes for nerfing individual chassis. You nerf the apex predator, something new takes its place, you nerf the new one and so on.

Besides, it's not just Clan laser vomit vs. Clan poptarts. There are few 'Mechs in the game that don't fall into either category, y'know?

[Vxheous]

Luminis, on 29 June 2017 - 04:25 AM, said:

Same goes for nerfing individual chassis. You nerf the apex predator, something new takes its place, you nerf the new one and so on.

Besides, it's not just Clan laser vomit vs. Clan poptarts. There are few 'Mechs in the game that don't fall into either category, y'know?

IS laser vomit with LFE might be really good come July, at the expense of range and slight reduction in speed. Surviving ST loss is going to be huge for IS builds.

Nerfing individual mechs is one thing, global nerfing/eliminating an entire style of play is completly different

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 29 June 2017 - 04:33 AM.

[Luminis]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 29 June 2017 - 04:31 AM, said:

Nerfing individual mechs is one thing, global nerfing/eliminating an entire style of play is completly different

If you end up nerfing every 'Mech that does it, what's the difference, aside from ruining completely unrelated builds?

[DGTLDaemon]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 29 June 2017 - 04:31 AM, said:

Nerfing individual mechs is one thing, global nerfing/eliminating an entire style of play is completly different

The problem is, PGI is nerfing chassis that can support powerful PPFLD builds by reducing their mobility, which hurts all other builds except for the friggin' poptarts, because poptarts don't need much mobility in the first place. Look at the Night Gyrs - the Gauss/PPC builds are still doing fine, while everything else got hit hard. I am worried that PGI might do the same to Mad Cat MkII, instead of addressing the specific build that may cause balance issues.

[CK16]

Thing that gets me is the nerf kills the true flavor of the build cause of "meta" builds. Like the Mk II isn't known for PPC's....Atleast these models. So nerfing the Gauss aspects is rather annoyijg. But if it had an ER PPC neg quirk with out any PPC's in the build it would just seem odd to see on a mech. And I am sure we would get the type of players acting like a moody teenage girl over it. "STOP PGI, YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!" ect..

[Luminis]

CK16, on 29 June 2017 - 05:30 AM, said:

Thing that gets me is the nerf kills the true flavor of the build cause of "meta" builds. Like the Mk II isn't known for PPC's....Atleast these models. So nerfing the Gauss aspects is rather annoyijg. But if it had an ER PPC neg quirk with out any PPC's in the build it would just seem odd to see on a mech. And I am sure we would get the type of players acting like a moody teenage girl over it. "STOP PGI, YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!" ect..

Talking about flavour:

Quote

The Mad Cat Mk II was in development for fifteen months by the time production began in 306. The sole rationale for the Mad Cat Mk II was to increase profits for Clan Diamond Shark after war with the Inner Sphere in the 3050s. Designed to be sold to fellow Clans, this rebuild of the Timber Wolf carries thirteen tons of ferro-fibrous armor while being one of most nimble BattleMechs of its class, yet still packing serious weaponry.[color=#000000]

Don't care what someone says, if PGI doesn't want to touch the PPC/Gauss combo directly, at least use negative quirks and preserve the agility the damn thing is known for.

Edited by Luminis, 29 June 2017 - 05:45 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

DGTLDaemon, on 29 June 2017 - 12:30 AM, said:

In my experience, playing in such manner absolutely requires one thing - devastating firepower that would make your opponents scared sh*tless of you, and PGI have been working hard lately to make sure no mech commands such firepower. I used to play my KDK-3 with quad UAC10s in exactly this way, before the UAC jam nerf. Right now I'm experimenting with a 2xLPL+6xMPL SNV-1, and yes, that 69-point alpha can often shut down a whole enemy lance, and make them reluctant to poke back at you. But very few mechs and builds are capable of this playstyle, especially in Tier 1 where people generally know how to focus down exposed targets. I'm regularly seeing Atlases attempting to play in this manner, and it usually ends badly for them. In other words, to play like that, you need to be piloting an OP mech that nobody will dare stare at.

So, you don't actually need devastating firepower for this. What you need are range, sustain, and follow-through. Range lets you hit targets across the field from one place, reduces the number of weapons the enemy can use to return fire, and reduces the effectiveness of the weapons they do possess that can do so. Sustain lets you stay on-station and actively engaged. Follow-through lets you hit a target on demand with little gap for retaliation. It also helps if your 'Mech can take a hit.

A PPC-Gauss KDK-3 is a mediocre power position 'Mech. It has range, but its full sustain is modest and it has poor follow-through. Quad-Gauss is better. The UAC KDK-3 and Mauler were good in all three categories and were/are used extensively in this role. The DRG-1C is also excellent in this role with ERLL, since it has such a fast rate of fire; its follow-through is excellent. The humble STK-4N is also a solid power-position 'Mech with LL, but shorter-ranged.

It works just fine in T1 matches (seriously, go try the ERLL DRG-1C), but the key is in the name of the playstyle: positioning. If you don't get it right, you will burn. What you don't really need a lot of for this, though, is agility.

Quote

Not exactly, I'd rather describe my playstyle as "aggressive and dynamic" - poking, flanking, backstabbing, repositioning, switching between targets, always looling for an advantage, like an isolated target or an enemy mech that's engaged with my teammates and is not looking at me. I think "skirmisher" would also be a good definition of my playstyle. If I was strictly a poking type of guy, I would be looking forward to the opportunity to play MadCat MkII with 2xGauss+2xPPC, regardless of what mobility PGI gives it, because jump jets will make it a perfect poptart anyway. But I'm not. I'm thinking of other builds, like dual UAC10s with some lasers, and I'm thinking of how badly they'll be ruined if PGI get scared of that single PPFLD build.

All of those are poke-type roles. You fire an retreat for each, the differences are just where you do it from and how far you retreat.

The MAD-IIC was never the 'Mech for this conceptually. That's what the GAR and EXE are for. The MAD-IIC is an average-speed gunbag. Even when it was agile, its strongest roles were exposed ones. It was far and away better at pushing and power positioning. So much better, that the reason it got agility nerfs was to compel it to rely on the team more for cover and make a judgemental error in timing more appropriately punitive. And it actually worked. It can still poke, you don't need top speed to poke with the revised acceleration curves implemented with the engine desync; you just need a shorter distance to travel. Yes, I do think PGI went a little bit overboard, especially when they didn't consider the differences in variants, but the amount of doom and gloom you've been heaping on the chassis is more than a little bit of exaggeration.

If the MCII is too good at something, it will have to be reigned in. There are no sacred cows.

[Chagatay]

I will be very, very surprised if isn't a wrecking ball right out of the gate. PGI will milk the iconic cow for about 7 months and then right as it is just about to be released for c-bills its OPness will be reigned in.

[DGTLDaemon]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 June 2017 - 07:32 AM, said:

If the MCII is too good at something, it will have to be reigned in. There are no sacred cows.

Agreed. I just hope PGI will find a way to rein it in without making other, non-OP loadouts underpowered. For instance, let's take a look at MCII-2. It has two ballistic and two energy hardpoints, which make it a prime candidate for the 2xGauss+2xERPPC build (and, therefore, a prime target for mobility nerfs). But at the same time, you can make a brawler out of it. How about 2xUAC10+4xSRM6a? Or better yet, a pair of LBX20s plus whatever SRMs you can fit in the remaining space? Sounds interesting? But a build like that would be non-viable without good mobility. That's why I'm advocating for weapon-specific negative quirks rather than blanket mobility nerfs. They already did this to the Night Gyr. I used to run a perfectly reasonable 2xUAC10+3xMPL build on it - pretty similar to the 2xUAC10+3xERML build that you can run on the Timber Wolf or Ebon Jaguar. I seriously doubt it was so overpowered that it had to be reined in. But the whole chassis received a mobility nerf because of that damn PPFLD poptart, and now I can't play it anymore. I really don't want to see the same thing happening to Mad Cat MkII.

Edited by DGTLDaemon, 29 June 2017 - 08:02 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

DGTLDaemon, on 29 June 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

Agreed. I just hope PGI will find a way to rein it in without making other, non-OP loadouts underpowered. For instance, let's take a look at MCII-2. It has two ballistic and two energy hardpoints, which make it a prime candidate for the 2xGauss+2xERPPC build (and, therefore, a prime target for mobility nerfs). But at the same time, you can make a brawler out of it. How about 2xUAC10+4xSRM6a? Or better yet, a pair of LBX20s plus whatever SRMs you can fit in the remaining space? Sounds interesting? But a build like that would be non-viable without good mobility. That's why I'm advocating for weapon-specific negative quirks rather than blanket mobility nerfs.

Honestly, torso yaw nerfs (abd/or arm range nerfs) would have been appropriate for all involved. A 'Mech like this doesn't really brawl; it charges in and flattens the target. It needs a team to help it do this. That also appropriately nerfs the poke builds for similar reasons. Don't know why they went and killed turning and acceleration so hard.

[MadRover]

And when has dual gauss and dual ppc not been a thing? Anyway there are far more effective builds than gauss ppc combo that offer more versatility like Dual UAC10s with 4MPLs. You rarely see gauss ppc combos for that kind of build to be a concern at the moment and it's because people would like to have fun.

I am aware of the ridiculous jamming that the UACs have to suffer through so replace with AC10s, AC20s, LBX10s, LBX20s respectfully. That's just one of the builds that I would rather run. I might just run stock with one of the MKIIs for nostalgia sake.

[Snowbluff]

Luminis, on 29 June 2017 - 01:58 AM, said:

Instead of nerfing every chassis that can do the Gauss / PPC Combo because it's OP, nerf the damn combo!

Low heat, high weight PPFLD weapon + high heat, low weight PPFLD weapon is the broken interaction. Change that and we're good. Easier than to stomp every Clan 'Mech that can field the combo somewhat well. Dunno, put PPCs and Gausses in the same Ghost Heat group and call it a day.

Boom, no more 50dmg PPFLD alpha and we can have Assaults that don't move like crap.

This is what energy draw would have done.

I think this is workable solution in the current ghost heat system, though.