31 replies to this topic

[LennStar]

I think its fine. Nice concentrated no too hot weapon.
Just don't try to snipe with it, for that you have the normal PPCs / ERPPCs.

[phoboskomboa]

I've been using it quite a bit, and PPCs have always been my favorite weapon type. Of the new models, I'd say it's the most useful. It COULD stand to have heat reduced slightly to put it more in line with other PPCs, though. Currently, it's the only one with a 1:1 heat:damage ratio (except for the IS ER-PPC, but I always forget that exists). As it stands, I've been using it on my PPC quirked mechs, and it's just on the hot side of being a good choice.

The light and heavy PPCs are both in far more drastic need of changes, though.

Edited by phoboskomboa, 29 June 2017 - 04:23 PM.

[HeresWhy]

Estella Jimenez, on 29 June 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

Can you please explain what that means?

R = Range
H = Heat
D = Damage
T = Tonnage

If you take 3 of the variables you should be able to derive X to balance a weapon. The weapon is lopsided.

If
Range is 270 (Low)
Damage is 10 (High)
Heat is 10 (High)
= Tonnage (Low)

If
Range is 270 (low)
Damage is 10 (High)
Tonnage is 6 (High)
= Heat (Low)

[Y E O N N E]

LennStar, on 29 June 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

I think its fine. Nice concentrated no too hot weapon.

Wut.

It's hotter than a standard PPC and does less overall...

[Josh Seles]

As-is, I think the SN-PPC is a bit hot for the brawling weapon it's been made out to be. 9.5 heat would probably be good, same as the IS standard PPC.
But...

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 June 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

Sorry, but velocity is not this weapons problem, its heat. Hell, they could give it a bit of splash (7.5-1.25-1.25) and reduce its heat down to the LPLs (7) and I'd be cool with it.

FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING, NO SPLASH DAMAGE.
It's a mechanic that I've pushed to be completely dropped.

[davoodoo]

HeresWhy, on 29 June 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

R = Range
H = Heat
D = Damage
T = Tonnage

If you take 3 of the variables you should be able to derive X to balance a weapon. The weapon is lopsided.

If
Range is 270 (Low)
Damage is 10 (High)
Heat is 10 (High)
= Tonnage (Low)

If
Range is 270 (low)
Damage is 10 (High)
Tonnage is 6 (High)
= Heat (Low)

6 is only 1 ton less than previously heaviest is energy weapons, lpl, ppc and erppc all weight 7 tons and they all do 10 dmg at hgiher ranges.
For comparison you also have large laser which does 9 dmg at 5 tons again at higher range.

10 dmg isnt high, its average for weapon of that tonnage.

But pgi here did what they did with heavy gauss.
Instead of using long range for optimal range and double that as max range they instead uses tt rules with short range as optimal.

Edited by davoodoo, 30 June 2017 - 01:17 AM.

[LordNothing]

id be willing to give up some max range to get the heat down a point.

[ingramli]

At the current state, LPL is a better weapon. Yes it has got 0.67sec duration, but it has a longer effective range, instant hit, cooler for same damage, only for 1 ton more.

Oh i forgot the reload of LPL is also faster. It is 3.67 even adding up the duration....

Edited by ingramli, 30 June 2017 - 05:49 AM.

[Oberost]

ingramli, on 30 June 2017 - 05:48 AM, said:

At the current state, LPL is a better weapon. Yes it has got 0.67sec duration, but it has a longer effective range, instant hit, cooler for same damage, only for 1 ton more.

Oh i forgot the reload of LPL is also faster. It is 3.67 even adding up the duration....

This is why I was asking for raising its GH limit to 3 (plus a reduction on heat to 9.5 or even 9). It's a weapon that competes in the same role than the LPL and right now is worse in all aspects...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Josh Seles, on 30 June 2017 - 01:01 AM, said:

9.5 heat would probably be good, same as the IS standard PPC.

No, it wouldn't be good enough. The snub nose competes at a completely different range bracket than the standard PPC.

Josh Seles, on 30 June 2017 - 01:01 AM, said:

It's a mechanic that I've pushed to be completely dropped.

If there is any mechanic that you should push to be completely dropped, it isn't splash, it is minimum range.

[ingramli]

I'd say this weapon need major buff to be a viable option...here are some choices i feel appropriate...

1. Increase to damage/shoot to 15 holding other parameters unchanged (so 2 of these will do 30 dmg for 20 heat, roughly equal to 3 LPLs, takes 2 more critical slots, but 1 less energy hardpoint);
2. Do splash damage like cERPPC (but more powerful), 10 to the location it lands, and 5 to ALL adjacent components, other pararmeters unchanged;
3. Increase the maximum number to fire without GH to 3, reduce the heat to 8, and reduce the cooldown to 3.2second (20% improvement), so while it is (slightly) hotter, and shorter range than LPL, it reload faster and can deal more (focused) damage in short window, allow instant torso twist after fire also make it a more suitable brawling weapon than LPL.

Edited by ingramli, 30 June 2017 - 09:20 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Estella Jimenez, on 29 June 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

By "lore description" I assume you mean Sarna. It gives a vague description and some numbers on the side that probably don't make sense if you don't play tabletop Battletech.

The thing about tabletop range brackets is that they normally don't mean a reduction in damage with distance. In tabletop you have to roll two six sided dice (2d6) and get a value above a target in order to hit your target. The target is the gunnery skill value of the mechwarrior (4 for a regular mechwarrior) modified by various conditions in the game that make the target higher or lower.

The range brackets of a weapon short/medium/long indicate what modifier is added to your to-hit roll. Short range is +0, Medium Range is +2, and Long Range is +4. So firing a PPC at long range by a regular mechwarrior with no other to-hit modifiers requires a roll of 8 or greater on 2d6. If it hits it still does 10 damage. You cannot fire a PPC at longer than long range, so a PPC will always do 10 damage to any target it can hit.

Now the interesting thing about the Snub-nose PPC is that it's one of very few weapons that does have decreasing damage with range. At short range it does 10 damage, Medium range 8 damage, Long range 5 damage.

So why do weapons in MWO do less damage to targets outside their effective range?

Let's look at the tabletop values for PPC range to get an idea of what's going on:
I'm going to give ranges in meters, tabletop actually uses hexes with each hex being 30m.

Minimum Range: 3 hexes or 90m
(Minimum range in tabletop doesn't work like in MWO. The PPC still does 10 damage inside 90m but at 3 hexes adds +1 to the to-hit roll, 2 hexes is +2, and 1 hex is +3.)

Short Range to 180m
Medium Range to 360m
Long Range to 540m

In tabletop the PPC does 10 damage out to 540m and cannot hit anything beyond 540m.
In MWO the PPC does 10 damage out to 540m, but can continue to hit targets beyond 540m for reduced damage. So we can see that MWO has extended the range of weapons beyond their tabletop values and this is the region where we see damage fall-off.

So let's see what's going on with the snub-nose PPC:

Short Range to 270m (hits for 10 damage)
Medium Range to 390m (hits for 8 damage)
Long Range to 450m (hits for 5 damage)

Notice that the snub-nose actually suffers damage fall-off in tabletop, unlike the regular PPC.

In MWO the optimal range is 270m, exactly the range where the snub-nose does it's full damage in tabletop, and that the maximum range extends out to 630m, so it still benefits from the extended range scale of MWO.

TLDR:
Given how MWO has implemented other weapon systems in the past and how the snub-nose PPC works in tabletop, the current implementation in MWO is exactly what we should expect as a baseline.

The only quibble I have is that the snub-nose should probably benefit from the re-balancing done to the standard PPC and be dropped down to 9.5 heat as well.

That is some damn fine work there, damn fine.