19 replies to this topic

[Reno Blade]

Hi all,

Just a quick poll if you would rather keep the high heat or the high beam duration, or would even trade in one direction.

Options:
10% less heat or beam duration.
15% less heat or beam duration.
20% less heat or beam duration, but 10% more heat or beam duration..
No change

Edit:
My take on energy is much more radical, so just for reference what I would do, check this table and my signature.

Spoiler

Edited by Reno Blade, 29 June 2017 - 03:50 AM.

[kapusta11]

1.25 burn duration (1.125 with skill tree), balance it with higer heat and longer cooldown.

[ScrubLord1]

I think the heat is an adequate penalty. I would prefer to see burn duration reduced just by 0.1 seconds first and go along from there. 1.7s burn duration exposes the mech too long and damage can be too easily spreaded for a 16 damage laser to be effective.

[Gryphorim]

Balance with heat and self-ECM effect. Should have similar burn time to what a Clan standard laser would have, if clans had a standard. Slightly shorter than, or very similar to ER, but way hotter, and scrambles electronics.

[Carrioncrows]

To make this weapon competitive you'll end up obsoleting the other weapons of the same tonnage.

The only way to make this weapon fit is to change it's working mechanics.

As much as I hate it, reduce all the cooldowns and burn times down to their counterparts. But make it have Gauss like charge up and mechanics.

Otherwise get used to the long burn times. I don't see this being balanced any other way.

[Nomad One]

Heavy lasers need more than just heat or beam duration reductions.

Heavy small lasers need a cooldown reduction to 3.25 seconds, a heat reduction to 4 and a burn duration reduction to 0.9 seconds.

Heavy medium lasers need a cooldown reduction to 4 seconds and a burn duration reduction to 1.12- 1.17 seconds. 10 damage at 270 meters, but the lower heat cost and cooldown of the IS standard laser would ensure that both can hold their own (STD ML better DPS, HML better burst) while not being particularly better than one another.

Heavy large lasers need the most help. Heat reduction to 15 would ensure it would have a place (1 more heat for 1 more damage over ERPPC at reduced range) in the clan arsenal, but it would also need its duration reduced to between 1.25- 1.3 seconds. Cooldown should probably be lowered to 5 seconds in order to emphasize its role as a moderate range burst weapon. This way it would somewhat synchronize with a gauss rifle in cooldown, but ERPPC would still provide better heat efficiency and range over it.

[AngrySpartan]

There are limits to maximim burn duration. Exceed this limit and weapon will be completely useless. Clan ERLL had 1,5 sec duration for ages and had no use at all (even now with 1,22 with all duration nodes its just barely adequate), but at least it has some range.

Just take some ERLLs and brawl with them at 100m range (HSL optimum), that's the efficiency of HSLs, and it gets worse with higher caliber.

Heavy lasers duration should not exceed it's Clan ER counterparts, otherwise they will be useless. Heavy lasers should be compensated for increased damage with half the range and increased heat compared to ER models.

Just compare HSL to ERSL:
Damage: 6 to 5
Heat: 4,25 to 3
Cooldown: 3,75 to 2,75
Duration: 1,35 to 1,1
Range: 100 to 200

Just a Single point of damage more! And for that single point of damage (CSPLs had that 6 DMG until recently!) HSL get punished with 40% more heat, 36% longer cooldown (not counting the duration!), insane burn time and 50% less range. Make no sense at all.

Heavy large is even worse than that, cause it should compete with CERMLs at it's range bracket:
HLL versus twin ERMLs:
Damage: 16 to 14
Heat: 17 to 12
Cooldown: 6 to 3,5
Duration: 1,7 to 1,25
Range: 450 to 405
Clearly DOA weapon, not to mention it weights 4t compared to 2t for twin ERMLs.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 29 June 2017 - 02:06 AM.

[Reno Blade]

AngrySpartan, on 29 June 2017 - 01:54 AM, said:

There are limits to maximim burn duration. Exceed this limit and weapon will be completely useless. Clan ERLL had 1,5 sec duration for ages and had no use at all (even now with 1,22 with all duration nodes its just barely adequate), but at least it has some range.

Just take some ERLLs and brawl with them at 100m range (HSL optimum), that's the efficiency of HSLs, and it gets worse with higher caliber.

Heavy lasers duration should not exceed it's Clan ER counterparts, otherwise they will be useless. Heavy lasers should be compensated for increased damage with half the range and increased heat compared to ER models.

Just compare HSL to ERSL:
Damage: 6 to 5
Heat: 4,25 to 3
Cooldown: 3,75 to 2,75
Duration: 1,35 to 1,1
Range: 100 to 200

Just a Single point of damage more! And for that single point of damage (CSPLs had that 6 DMG until recently!) HSL get punished with 40% more heat, 36% longer cooldown (not counting the duration!), insane burn time and 50% less range. Make no sense at all.

Heavy large is even worse than that, cause it should compete with CERMLs at it's range bracket:
HLL versus twin ERMLs:
Damage: 16 to 14
Heat: 17 to 12
Cooldown: 6 to 3,5
Duration: 1,7 to 1,25
Range: 450 to 405
Clearly DOA weapon, not to mention it weights 4t compared to 2t for twin ERMLs.

So what's your suggestion?
Beam only, or buff everything?

I'd reduce ER Laser damage by 1 point each tbh... but well, only cSP was nerfed last month.

[AngrySpartan]

Reno Blade, on 29 June 2017 - 02:37 AM, said:

So what's your suggestion?
Beam only, or buff everything?

I'd reduce ER Laser damage by 1 point each tbh... but well, only cSP was nerfed last month.

My suggestion:
1. Same duration as ER models
2. Cooldown to match the DPS of ER models (thus slightly higher in absolute values)
3. Heat to match or be slightly worse than ER models DPH
4. Max range can be tweaked to be 60% like ERs if it's too strong.

That way we'll have basic ER lasers as a starting point, Heavy models as 50% range burst weapons and Pulse models as shorter range DPS weapons.

And I actually like the Idea of reticule shake Heavy gauss style after firing Heavy lasers.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 29 June 2017 - 03:06 AM.

[Reno Blade]

AngrySpartan, on 29 June 2017 - 03:03 AM, said:

My suggestion:
1. Same duration as ER models
2. Cooldown to match the DPS of ER models (thus slightly higher in absolute values)
3. Heat to match or be slightly worse than ER models DPH
4. Max range can be tweaked to be 60% like ERs if it's too strong.

That way we'll have basic ER lasers as a starting point, Heavy models as 50% range burst weapons and Pulse models as shorter range DPS weapons.

And I actually like the Idea of reticule shake Heavy gauss style after firing Heavy lasers.

OK that sound a bit too good for me.
I think you would then never use ERML or ERSL or MP/SP anymore with the Heavies being that close.

And just thinking of the power of a Heavy Laser boat with the same CD, Heat AND BURN as we already have for ERLL or LP+ML ... this sounds insane.
One of the stats should be worse than ERLL, or you will have no difference.
Pulse laser have shorter range, but they also have less burn for their higher tonnage.
Heavy lasers are the opposite on the tonnage side, but also short range, so either more heat or more burn if we are just comparing these classes.

[AngrySpartan]

Reno Blade, on 29 June 2017 - 03:12 AM, said:

OK that sound a bit too good for me.
I think you would then never use ERML or ERSL or MP/SP anymore with the Heavies being that close.

And just thinking of the power of a Heavy Laser boat with the same CD, Heat AND BURN as we already have for ERLL or LP+ML ... this sounds insane.
One of the stats should be worse than ERLL, or you will have no difference.
Pulse laser have shorter range, but they also have less burn for their higher tonnage.
Heavy lasers are the opposite on the tonnage side, but also short range, so either more heat or more burn if we are just comparing these classes.

Either I am misreading something in your message or you missed the point in mine. I am not saying Heavies should be the same CD and heat or better than ERs. They should be comparable to ERs for Damage per second (DPS) and Damage per heat (DPH).

With higher damage that mathematically means they have higher CDs.
E.g. HSL versus ERSL (BTW I am using them because they are most identicall in their role - close range fighting)
Current ERSL:DPS=1,30, DPH=1,67.
Current HSL: DPS=1,17, DPH=1,41

Assuming HSL will be the same 6 damage and duration will be tolerable 1,1s new stats should be around:
Cooldown -3,5s, Heat - 3,6 (ERSLs have 2,75s and 3 heat).
You still will have a hard time to brawl with them (duration and CD are still high) but they will be an ok weapon at least. And don't forget they work only at point blank range. HMLs and HLLs are a bit toughter to balance with the same logic though, there are no direct counterparts.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 29 June 2017 - 03:58 AM.

[Last Of The Brunnen-G]

In TT the Heavy mediums are more heat efficient than the Er mediums. They already have a major drawback with their short range. At the moment i see no reason to use them at all. The cooldown and durations are way to high. You can only combine them effective with other heavy lasers (to get similar cycle times). Maybe the are usefull for heavy or assault mechs that can use them for higher alphas, but light and medium mechs can't manage the heat and combine them usefull.

[AngrySpartan]

MasterBurte, on 29 June 2017 - 04:53 AM, said:

In TT the Heavy mediums are more heat efficient than the Er mediums. They already have a major drawback with their short range. At the moment i see no reason to use them at all. The cooldown and durations are way to high. You can only combine them effective with other heavy lasers (to get similar cycle times). Maybe the are usefull for heavy or assault mechs that can use them for higher alphas, but light and medium mechs can't manage the heat and combine them usefull.

And here's the irony, in TT heavy lasers were designed to allow smaller light and mediums to do 20+ damage in a salvo (20+ damage to a mech will provoke piloting check in TT, thus have a potential for knockdowns). But, yes there are no reasons to use them at all in MWO.

[Reno Blade]

AngrySpartan, on 29 June 2017 - 03:57 AM, said:

Either I am misreading something in your message or you missed the point in mine. I am not saying Heavies should be the same CD and heat or better than ERs. They should be comparable to ERs for Damage per second (DPS) and Damage per heat (DPH).

With higher damage that mathematically means they have higher CDs.
E.g. HSL versus ERSL (BTW I am using them because they are most identicall in their role - close range fighting)
Current ERSL:DPS=1,30, DPH=1,67.
Current HSL: DPS=1,17, DPH=1,41

Assuming HSL will be the same 6 damage and duration will be tolerable 1,1s new stats should be around:
Cooldown -3,5s, Heat - 3,6 (ERSLs have 2,75s and 3 heat).
You still will have a hard time to brawl with them (duration and CD are still high) but they will be an ok weapon at least. And don't forget they work only at point blank range. HMLs and HLLs are a bit toughter to balance with the same logic though, there are no direct counterparts.

OK, thanks for clarification. That makes sense for the HSL in your example.

What would you use for HML and HLL (compared to ERML/ERLL) ?

I was pushing cd and duration a lot and I still got higher dps, dps with duration, dmg/tick, dph and dps/ton for all Heavy lasers compared to ER lasers.
OK, I have reduced ER Laser damage by 1point each...

[AngrySpartan]

Reno Blade, on 29 June 2017 - 05:14 AM, said:

OK, thanks for clarification. That makes sense for the HSL in your example.

What would you use for HML and HLL (compared to ERML/ERLL) ?

I was pushing cd and duration a lot and I still got higher dps, dps with duration, dmg/tick, dph and dps/ton for all Heavy lasers compared to ER lasers.
OK, I have reduced ER Laser damage by 1point each...

I've mention burn duration limits before (exceed them and weapon is garbage), IMHO it's the same with CDs - 4+seconds of cooldown at 270 meters for HMLs is on the edge of acceptable.

HMLs are in an odd place, it's hard to define their role on the battlefield. I mean it has lower range than MPLs and with higher damage&heat, but at the same weight as ERMLs. At 270 optimal range that's already on the edge of brawl, you can't brawl well with ERMLs because of burn time. MPLs are ok in that sense though, but weight twice as much and at 330m+ you still can outrange AC20s and especially SRMs. You can't sync them with LPLs, in fact you can sync them well only with SRMs/ATMs/UAC20 and the last two a complete garbage right now.

The only place I can imagine for HMLs is to be a replacement to MPLs/ERMLs for hardpoint and tonnage starving fast mechs like MLX or IceBox or ShadowCat. Assuming burn time would be reduced to 1,25 they would be a viable weapon for those mechs, for everyone else ERMLs and MPLs will still be superior:
Burn duration / DMG / Heat / CD / DPS / DPH:
Current HML:____________1,6 / 10 / 8 / 5 / 1,51 / 1,25
Suggested HML stats: __1,25 / 10 / 8,5 /4,5 / 1,73 / 1,17
ERML:_______________1,25 / 7 / 6 / 3,5 / 1,47 / 1,17
MPL:_________________0,9 / 7,5 / 5 / 3 / 1,92 / 1,5

This way HMLs has more DPS than ERMLs and less than MPLs, with less range than either of those. They has the same HPS as ERMLs and still a lot worse than MPLs. And HML low tonnage isn't that important, cause you'll need a lot of heatsinks to offset the heat.

The only thing to add here might be heatscale increase to maximum 4 HMLs at a time. 40 dmg is still a lot in one shot. Will post HLL thoughts later.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 29 June 2017 - 02:37 PM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

I think damage and duration should be prioritized for heavy lasers, with cooldown and heat being the primary limiter. Heavy lasers are supposed to test the limits of your mech's heat dissipation, so I'm not against increasing the HML and HLL's heat even further for a sizeable decrease in burn time. The HSL needs help overall though, why use it when you get better DPS and HPS with longer range and less duration on the ERSL? Bring heat down to 3.5-4, and burn-time should be 0.8-1 depending on heat.

[AngrySpartan]

Reno Blade, on 29 June 2017 - 05:14 AM, said:

OK, thanks for clarification. That makes sense for the HSL in your example.
What would you use for HML and HLL (compared to ERML/ERLL) ?
I was pushing cd and duration a lot and I still got higher dps, dps with duration, dmg/tick, dph and dps/ton for all Heavy lasers compared to ER lasers.
OK, I have reduced ER Laser damage by 1point each...

HLLs is a pain in the a.. to make viable. Just looking at what it offers makes me sad:
450 optimal syncs with ERMLs perfectly (thus HLLs may be used instead LPLs/ERLLs for laservom builds), terrible damage to heat ratio, insane cooldown and duration. With current stats noone would ever take them instead of couple of ERMLs and HLL can't compete with ERMLs because of weight.

So the only thing HLL can do is to compete with ERLLs/LPLs in laservom builds to squieeze some more damage into maximum alpha strike.
Just making HLL duration the same as ERLL at 1,35 alone will make their DPS equal (6s HLL cooldown). Reducing Heat to 15 will make them roughly equal in terms oh DPH. That way HLL will be equal to x1,5 ERLLs at no weight cost, but with half the range and +40% cooldown. That's still not competitive with LPLs, so I would have reduced HLLs cooldown to make them closer in terms of DPS:

______________Burn duration / DMG / Heat / CD / DPS / DPH:
Current HLL:___________1,7 / 16 / 17 / 6 / 2,08 / 0,94
Suggested HLL stats: _1,35 / 16 / 15 /4,75/ 2,62 / 1,06
ERLL:_______________1,35 / 11 / 10 / 3,5 / 2,16 / 1,1
LPL:________________1,09 / 12 / 10 / 3 / 2,80 / 1,2

Even with these stats HLLs will be hot as hell, and there are only a couple mechs capable of handling 2 HLLs+some ERMLs (big engine MAD-IICs, Timber wolf, maybe single HLL+ERMLs on SCR/LBK/). Would be an ok (shorter ranged, less accurate, hotter, but with bigger alpha) alternative to LPL+MLs, and a blessing for mechs like Linbacker with limited weight available for better laservom builds.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 29 June 2017 - 10:04 AM.

[FupDup]

The heat needs to stay high to make boating Heavy Lasers be very inefficient. Heavy Lasers should be designed that they are powerful in small numbers but barely usable in large numbers. Their role should be to help mechs with low hardpoints and/or low tonnage to mount effective payloads.

I guess the HLL in particular could lose 1-2 points of heat, but beam duration is the thing that the majority of focus should be on.

[Deathpig]

AngrySpartan, on 29 June 2017 - 05:13 AM, said:

And here's the irony, in TT heavy lasers were designed to allow smaller light and mediums to do 20+ damage in a salvo (20+ damage to a mech will provoke piloting check in TT, thus have a potential for knockdowns). But, yes there are no reasons to use them at all in MWO.

In TT, Heavy Lasers (and ATMs) were added to give Clans some 'oomph' in close range encounters as the IS got LFE/HGR/LB20/UAC20/RACs/etc (and the IS fared better up close before, anyway).

So having heavy lasers with giant face time, huge cooldowns, and ghost heat groupings that make them worse than ERs... well, they have no purpose.

Though I do like the idea of having the heavy lasers cause your own radar to 'jam' (as if enemy was disrupting it) for a period after you fire them. That would seem like a good way to blend the TT drawback into the game.

[AngrySpartan]

FupDup, on 29 June 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

The heat needs to stay high to make boating Heavy Lasers be very inefficient. Heavy Lasers should be designed that they are powerful in small numbers but barely usable in large numbers. Their role should be to help mechs with low hardpoints and/or low tonnage to mount effective payloads.

I guess the HLL in particular could lose 1-2 points of heat, but beam duration is the thing that the majority of focus should be on.

Boating HLLs won't be a big problem with 15+ heat. We already have 15 heat/15 damage CERPPCs, how many mechs can efficiently boat 2 or more of them? How many mechs from that list aren't poptart snipers? On top of that HLLs has half the range and you don't need any face time with PPCs.

With a couple of 15+ heat weapons you can only afford a gauss/ballsitics as a second weapon system or you can go full laservom+huge engine e.g. MAD-IIC (2LPL+6ERML & XL375+) build. With such weapons crit space for heatsinks worth a lot more than weight, thus HLLs are at disadvantage compared to LPLs/PPCs again.