40 replies to this topic

[stoogah]

Midnight Camel, on 29 June 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

Ghost heat aside, I think they feel about right, balance-wise. My only quibble is that you can take two LPPC's in lieu of a single PPC for one less ton, the same damage, about the same heat. The fact that this requires an extra hard point and extra critical would somewhat restrict the builds that you could make this trade on, but assuming you have the spare hard point, two LPPC's seems strictly superior to a single PPC.

I know ghost heat is currently a factor but I feel fairly certain that setting the ghost heat on LPPC's to two was an oversight. Intentionally limiting combined alpha to 10 is pretty unreasonable.

Even with GH letting us fire 4 LPPCs whats the point? Same range, same damage, same cooldown, same min range as 2 PPCs. A little more heat for a little less weight. Yes, 4 LPPCS will be superior to 2 PPCs because 12 vs 14 tons but it's the same weapon. 0 notiable differences. Oh... 2 crit spaces so we can mount it in the CT. That's nice for some mechs but... not enough imo, because installing 2 LPPCS will take more space than 1 PPC.
There will be problems with GH limit and all the ppcs... to give them limit of 4 would require differentiate them from other ppcs and that would let them be combined like 2 ppc+2 lppc combos or even 2 hppc + 2 lppc without ghost heat. But well... if we can have 2 Hgauss (yes I'm for limiting them to fire 1 at the same time) with 50 pinpoint dmg then why not 30-34 of ppc combos...

[Midnight Camel]

stoogah, on 29 June 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

Even with GH letting us fire 4 LPPCs whats the point?

I agree with you; unless PGI's ghost heat code allows multiple ghost heat code allows different limits for different weapon combinations - which I'm pretty sure it doesn't - then raising the ghost heat limit for LPPC's means raising the limit for all PPC's. With ghost heat as is, the only two viable use cases for LPPC's I see are 2 LPPC's grouped with AC5/UAC5, or 1 PPC + 1LPPC. Any other combinations either incur ghost heat or is too low of an alpha to justify the tonnage.

[ScrapIron Prime]

FupDup, on 29 June 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

Yeah, because a weapon that is allowed to deal 10 upfront damage before getting Ghost Heat penalties is totally OP.

EDIT: Let me be clear here. The actual XML base stats for the Light Peeper are quite nice. It's just the Ghost Heat cap being so low that holds them back. That's it.

Agreed. Ghost heat threshold of 2 is too low.

This weapon is only overpowered if you think that chain firing 5 point weapons is OP. i personally don't. Leave the weapon alone and increase ghost heat to 4.

Midnight Camel, on 30 June 2017 - 06:37 AM, said:

or 1 PPC + 1LPPC. Any other combinations either incur ghost heat or is too low of an alpha to justify the tonnage.

And PPC + LPPC does more damage than a Heavy PPC for the same weight...

[Nesutizale]

Nobody touches my LPPC...its perfect !

[Y E O N N E]

ScrapIron Prime, on 30 June 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

And PPC + LPPC does more damage than a Heavy PPC for the same weight...

But you can't fire two combos at once. You CAN fire two HPPCs at once. That is huge.

[MischiefSC]

FupDup, on 29 June 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

Mischief, I do understand and appreciate your intentions here, but ton-for-ton the ML and ERML are supposed to be more efficient because they have shorter range and aren't PPFLD.

All the Light PPC really needs is a Ghost Heat limit of 4 and it'll be pretty good.

So ghost heat it to 4.

The result is that you take 4 LPPC and use 2 extra E hardpoints as a 'tax' to avoid minimum range on what is otherwise a regular PPC. Yay!

So you've got something that's just as viable as a regular IS PPC but with a bit less range.

I would say give regular PPCs a ghost heat of 3 and LPPC a ghost heat of 5. While I appreciate the usefulness of PPFLD the range on them is so short that optimal range for them is, literally, 4 seconds of walking for most mechs away from brawl range. At which point you're boned.

Why we're so worried about 30+ points of PPC PPFLD anymore when in the new meta I can take a 2xUAC20 Bushie I don't get. My point is that all the PPCs need a *lot* more to be viable compared to the other options.

[FupDup]

As an update, the new PTS patch increased the LPPC Ghost Heat limit to 3 (firing a 4th will incur a penalty).

[ingramli]

It takes 1 more critical slot, 1 more hardpoint and slightly more heat for the same functionality. If one say it need to nerf number could be fired before ghost heat kicks in, one should consider consider giving this weapon some compensation for the extra critical slots and hardpoints it eats up.

Edited by ingramli, 30 June 2017 - 05:59 PM.

[davoodoo]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 June 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

But you can't fire two combos at once. You CAN fire two HPPCs at once. That is huge.

Merely 30 dmg, dual gauss or 6 mlas or 3 prenerf llas.

I really think ppl on these forums overestimate what is huge damage.
They really should see a monnster like 24 medlas(120 dmg) atlas being heat neutral using only level 1 tech.
30 dmg would be appopriate amount of firepower for a light mech with level 2 tech or level 1 medium mech.

Edited by davoodoo, 30 June 2017 - 06:42 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

davoodoo, on 30 June 2017 - 06:36 PM, said:

Merely 30 dmg, dual gauss or 6 mlas or 3 prenerf llas.

I really think ppl on these forums overestimate what is huge damage.
They really should see a monnster like 24 medlas(120 dmg) atlas being heat neutral using only level 1 tech.
30 dmg would be appopriate amount of firepower for a light mech with level 2 tech.

I didn't mean huge in terms of the size of the alpha. I meant huge in terms of what being able to fire it all at once in a single blob, from 540 meters, lets you do.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 30 June 2017 - 06:42 PM.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 29 June 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

All the Light PPC really needs is a Ghost Heat limit of 4 and it'll be pretty good.

One issue here. In Ghost Heat 1.0, how does this interact with standard PPCs?
Could I carry 2 PPCs and 4 LPPCs and not incur ghost heat?
Does 1 PPC and 1 LPPC incur ghost heat? If 2 and 4 for ghost heat, then would 1 PPC and 2 LPPC be safe from ghost heat or would it be close to pushing that boundary by living on the edge?

I'm not a fan of ghost heat or 2.0, but I will say at least 2.0 attempted to future proof itself by being able to make this interaction.

[davoodoo]

Koniving, on 30 June 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

One issue here. In Ghost Heat 1.0, how does this interact with standard PPCs?
Could I carry 2 PPCs and 4 LPPCs and not incur ghost heat?
Does 1 PPC and 1 LPPC incur ghost heat? If 2 and 4 for ghost heat, then would 1 PPC and 2 LPPC be safe from ghost heat or would it be close to pushing that boundary by living on the edge?

I'm not a fan of ghost heat or 2.0, but I will say at least 2.0 attempted to future proof itself by being able to make this interaction.

You dont want to seriously tell me that energy draw was good...

Link them to ppc with 2 ppc 2 erppc and 4 lppc

worst youll get is 2 ppc + 2 lppc.

Edited by davoodoo, 30 June 2017 - 06:49 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Koniving, on 30 June 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

One issue here. In Ghost Heat 1.0, how does this interact with standard PPCs?
Could I carry 2 PPCs and 4 LPPCs and not incur ghost heat?
Does 1 PPC and 1 LPPC incur ghost heat? If 2 and 4 for ghost heat, then would 1 PPC and 2 LPPC be safe from ghost heat or would it be close to pushing that boundary by living on the edge?

I'm not a fan of ghost heat or 2.0, but I will say at least 2.0 attempted to future proof itself by being able to make this interaction.

It may incur ghost according to the lowest common denominator. I know it calculates the heat penalty according to the weapon with the most potent one.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 30 June 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

One issue here. In Ghost Heat 1.0, how does this interact with standard PPCs?
Could I carry 2 PPCs and 4 LPPCs and not incur ghost heat?
Does 1 PPC and 1 LPPC incur ghost heat? If 2 and 4 for ghost heat, then would 1 PPC and 2 LPPC be safe from ghost heat or would it be close to pushing that boundary by living on the edge?

I'm not a fan of ghost heat or 2.0, but I will say at least 2.0 attempted to future proof itself by being able to make this interaction.

I would hope/assume that they can still be inter-linked despite having different individual caps.

Like, for example, firing 2 PPC and 1 LPPC should count as 3 PPCs right? I know that GH by default always assumes the hottest weapon if you mix multiple linked weapons.

1 PPC and 2 LPPC should count as 3 PPC as well, not sure if it would work out in-game that way though.

Edited by FupDup, 30 June 2017 - 06:48 PM.

[davoodoo]

FupDup, on 30 June 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

I would hope/assume that they can still be inter-linked despite having different individual caps.

Like, for example, firing 2 PPC and 1 LPPC should count as 3 PPCs right? I know that GH by default always assumes the hottest weapon if you mix multiple linked weapons.

1 PPC and 2 LPPC should count as 3 PPC as well, not sure if it would work out in-game that way though.

assuming 2 ppc 4lppc limit

2 ppc + 1 lppc would incur no penatly.

But if you add 3rd ppc youll get penatly for 3 ppc
If you add another lppc 3ppc+2lppc youll get penatly for 5 ppc.

Edited by davoodoo, 30 June 2017 - 06:53 PM.

[Koniving]

davoodoo, on 30 June 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

You dont want to seriously tell me that energy draw was good...

Link them to ppc with 2 ppc 2 erppc and 4 lppc

worst youll get is 2 ppc + 2 lppc.

If they "Link", then you'll get 2 PPC and 2 LPPC triggering ghost heat as 4 PPCs.

Energy draw would have been able to make the distinction of "1 PPC + 2 LPPC does not equal 3 PPC."

FupDup, on 30 June 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

I would hope/assume that they can still be inter-linked despite having different individual caps.

Like, for example, firing 2 PPC and 1 LPPC should count as 3 PPCs right? I know that GH by default always assumes the hottest weapon if you mix multiple linked weapons.

1 PPC and 2 LPPC should count as 3 PPC as well, not sure if it would work out in-game that way though.

It would, and unfortunately that means it will punish you as if you are using 3 PPCs. Or they would keep them independent, in which case you will have the 2 PPC + 4 LPPC pinpoint alpha cannons.

1.0 doesn't really have a middle ground here. This I believe is why PGI chose the 2 LPPC cap.

That way 2 PPCs of any type = 2 PPCs, and 3 = ghost heat.

[davoodoo]

Koniving, on 30 June 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

If they "Link", then you'll get 2 PPC and 2 LPPC triggering ghost heat as 4 PPCs.

Energy draw would have been able to make the distinction of "1 PPC + 2 LPPC does not equal 3 PPC."


It would, and unfortunately that means it will punish you as if you are using 3 PPCs. Or they would keep them independent, in which case you will have the 2 PPC + 4 LPPC pinpoint alpha cannons.

1.0 doesn't really have a middle ground here. This I believe is why PGI chose the 2 LPPC cap.

That way 2 PPCs of any type = 2 PPCs, and 3 = ghost heat.

Actually no.

test it with lurms.

get stalker 3f pack 2 lrm20 and 1 lrm5, std 250 and no extra heat sinks for smooth 40 heat cap and go into forest colony.
Fire them all, 39%.
While ghost heat for 3 lrm20 would be 21.20(3 extra heat) more than half the bar.

Edited by davoodoo, 30 June 2017 - 07:04 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Koniving, on 30 June 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

It would, and unfortunately that means it will punish you as if you are using 3 PPCs. Or they would keep them independent, in which case you will have the 2 PPC + 4 LPPC pinpoint alpha cannons.

We already have IS 40-point pin-point alpha cannons, just not on Heavies except at brawling range. The deficit the IS have against the Clans is getting to 40 on Heavies and 50 for Assaults with decently long range for both.

[Koniving]

davoodoo, on 30 June 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

Actually no.

test it with lurms.

get stalker 3f pack 2 lrm20 and 1 lrm5, std 250 and no extra heat sinks for smooth 40 heat cap.
Fire them all, less than heat bar.
While ghost heat for 3 lrm20 would be 21.20

Those have been linked it seems.

Curious. Maybe they have created a middle ground, as LRM-5s are triggered at 3 while the rest at 2.

Seems like someone over there has at least part of a brain. I'm shocked.

Would still be better to have no ghost heat at all.

Side note:
You still get ghost heat; just tried it.
3.02 extra heat. Just a lot harder to notice with 6+6+2.4+3.02 than with 6+6+6+3.02.

(Actual number pulled from Smurfy's ghost heat table. Witness difference was 4% heat on 250 engine with no additional DHS or skill tree. This is after waiting the obligatory 2 seconds after 0% to allow for the number to truly hit the same origin point before test-firing again.) [2% was a typo.)

Edited by Koniving, 30 June 2017 - 07:11 PM.

[davoodoo]

It actually works like that since energy draw pts, maybe even earlier.

Interestingly firing 2 lrm5 + 2 lrm 20 causes 58% bar or 23.2 heat.
So yeah, it added 8 heat.

Koniving, on 30 June 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

Side note:
You still get ghost heat; just tried it.
3.02 extra heat. Just a lot harder to notice with 6+6+2.4+3.02 than with 6+6+6+3.02.

0.39x40=15.6

6 + 6 + 2.4=14.4
14.4 + 0.18=14.58

where did you get 3 heat, i see difference of 1 heat which i can blame on latent heat and imprecision of % bar.

and you forgot that no matter if weapons trigger ghost heat or not you also get small amount of heat for firing more than 1 weapon, 0.08 for 2, 0.18 for 3, 0.30 for 4, 0.45 at 5, 0.60 at 6, 0.80 at 7 and 1.10 at 8.

Edited by davoodoo, 30 June 2017 - 07:13 PM.