37 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

As per community calculation, it takes 5s total for the RAC to reach jam, it takes 1.05s to spin up and then 3.95s of shooting before the meter is filled. But here's the catch, you can still shoot while the bar is filled, but your chance of jamming just exponentially increases. And as Highlighted by WhyHelloDer, the two weapons just have abysmal Effective DPS.

Spoiler

WhyHelloDer, on 29 June 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

Right what it says on the tin. Rotary Autocannons, as implemented will not be a suitable alternative to normal autocannons in either a burst fire (which apparently is what UACs are for???) or a sustained damage output capacity.

For the sake of this discussion I'm going to assume several things:

• We will only be comparing between ACs and RACs. This is due to the unpredictable nature of UAC Jam Chances.
  
• We will assume that the RAC either Jams immediately after filling the bar, or the pilot stops firing at that point to cooldown to full.

So, with that said lets get to it. For the RAC/2 and the RAC/5 the Jam Bar takes 5 seconds to fill up. It then takes 10 seconds for the bar to fully dissipate and 10 seconds for a Jam to fully clear. In addition, about 1-1.25 seconds (hard to get a rouch estimate, but using recording and video editing software I think I've narrowed it to about 1.05 seconds which is the number I'll be using for calculations) are used to spin up the barrel from a rested state. This happens regardless of the amount of the Bar filled.

So, lets look at this in a 15 second window and compare the RACs to the normal ACs:

Class 2 Autocannons

RAC/2: 1.05 seconds spin up -> 3.95 seconds spent firing for 4 dps -> 10 second CD/Jam

AC/2: 15 seconds firing for 2.78 dps

Class 5 Autocannons

RAC/5: 1.05 seconds spin up -> 3.95 seconds spent firing for 9.6 dps -> 10 second CD/Jam

AC/5: 15 seconds firing for 3.01 dps

So, over this 15 second period the RACs are only firing for 3.95 seconds. That is only 26.3% of the total time period, and thus to get the actual dps of a RAC weapon you need to multiply them by .263. So, the actual sustained dps of RAC weapons, as compared to their normal AC counterparts is as follows:

RAC/2: 1.052
AC/2: 2.78
RAC/5: 2.548
AC/5: 3.01

Do those look like usable weapons to you?

I think i want to change that, make it more of a typical FPS MG that overheats then stalls, and in doing so we can pull out more from the weapons. As opposed in having exponentially increasing jam chance, it will just predictively jam when the jam meter is filed. Also the Meter would NOT fill up as you are spinning up.

Their E-DPS is tailored by their tonnage. Damage/Ammo ton increased to 200, cause that damage will be EVERYWHERE

Spoiler

The6thMessenger, on 29 June 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

UAC5 at 9 tons on average jams at 6.66666667 double-shots, and would have dealt 66.66666666666667 dame before jam. That means player have suffered 11.06666666666667 + 6.00s of jam time, thus the real DPS is 3.906249999999998.

RAC2, at 8 tons should at least have 3.472222222222221 DPS effective.

RAC5, at 10 tons, should have 4.340277777777776 DPS effective.

Based on your calculations, RAC's burst damage should be as follows:

RAC2: 13.18565400843881 DPS for 3.95s.

RAC5: 16.48206751054852 DPS for 3.95s.

Quote

GENERAL CHANGES:

> RACs now jam instantly the moment the Jam Meter is filled
> Jam Meter only fills up during firing, not while spinning.
> Spin-UP Time is at 0.75s, Spin-DOWN Time at 1.25s.
> Damage per Ammo-Ton is at 200 -- cause that damage will be spread EVERYWHERE.
> Always during operation, the weapon generate heat. Be it during spin-up, spin-down, or firing, it will generate heat. Like Stealth Armor.

Quote

RAC2

Optimal Range: 540m
Max Range: 1080m
Damage/Shot: 1
Fire Interval: 0.115s
Burst DPS: 8.680555555555553
Burst Duration: 4s
Jam Duration: 6s
Effective DPS: 3.472222222222221
Ammo/Ton: 200

Quote

RAC5

Optimal Range: 450m
Max Range: 900m
Damage/Shot: 2
Fire Interval: 0.177s
Burst DPS: 11.28472222222222
Burst Duration: 5s
Jam Duration: 8s
Effective DPS: 4.340277777777776
Ammo/ton: 100

That's the perfect RAC stats for me. Good burst DPS, clear distinction between weapon systems, worth their tonnage too.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 02 July 2017 - 10:16 PM.

[LordNothing]

mechanically i think its fine the way it is but it needs some value tweaks. either the dps is too low or the jam bar fills too aggressively. im going to run some dual rac2 and 5 boats and see where these things are weak.

[The6thMessenger]

LordNothing, on 29 June 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

either the dps is too low or the jam bar fills too aggressively.

Kind of both really. Aggrevated by the fact that merely spinning up fills the bar.

LordNothing, on 29 June 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

mechanically i think its fine the way it is but it needs some value tweaks.

I wanted that archetypal overheating machine-guns to simplify mechanism, we can have better control, and at the same time have improved values. Currently it seems that the weapon itself largely rely on the perk that it can shoot till jammed like the UACs, but does less.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 29 June 2017 - 04:12 PM.

[Top Leliel]

Do the math and ensure that RACs have the best DPS per tons at their given ranges of any ballistic weapon, even after full cooldown quirks are taken into account. The exact DPS matters less than each RAC filling it's niche, being the be-all end-all of dakka within its category.

According to a calculation last night, RAC/2s have less DPS than UAC/2s. That's the complete opposite of what a RAC/2 is supposed to be.

Another thing is RACs should not have ghost heat. They are not a pinpoint alpha weapon, they are the epitome of a sustained fire weapon.

[R3bolt]

I think rac's just need the meeter it fill slower during the spin up time that should help make sure affective fire time is not eaten up and that should encourage burst fire.

[corpse256]

Problem is that if it runs too long it will out do UAC10s and that's not balanced. I'm sure tweaks will come in but don't expect anything major.

[LordNothing]

The6thMessenger, on 29 June 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

Kind of both really. Aggrevated by the fact that merely spinning up fills the bar.



I wanted that archetypal overheating machine-guns to simplify mechanism, we can have better control, and at the same time have improved values. Currently it seems that the weapon itself largely rely on the perk that it can shoot till jammed like the UACs, but does less.

spinup time is horrible. its totally useless in a brawl because you are still spinning up when the other mech fires and twists away. as a pure dps gun you cant fire it long enough to matter. the face time investment is too long for the damage. and you cant use it for those split second of opportunity shots. mechanically its right it just needs some numbers tweaked.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 June 2017 - 09:46 PM.

[Rydiak Randborir]

I would like to see the Jam Bar not increase during "spool up", but consequently only start decreasing a moment or two after the RAC has fully spun down. That would be the only mechanical change to the RAC I would suggest. That said, numbers still need to be tweaked to make the DPS output of the RACs viable.

[corpse256]

well weapon system isn't a brawl more of a long to mid range weapon. I would claim the weapon to be a support type weapon just like ATMs giving it a unique style to it but not having same properties as a UAC would. Here is what I think needs to happen.

I would class the RAC2 better than a UAC 2 and AC2 but not so much as to render the two lower weapon systems as useless. I would give RAC5s better than the AC5s and slightly better than UAC5s of course with higher chance to jam with a RAC5. I think the take on the weapon is to burst fire it or hold full blast at your own risk. Which I like. Jams might be slightly too long but for good reasons. Lets not talk the abuse they had in Mechwarrior 4 Mercs. OMG!!

I think this is a good start weapon passes on it later will balance it out, I'm sure the bugs will be worked out before the patch.

[The Basilisk]

LordNothing, on 29 June 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

spinup time is horrible. its totally useless in a brawl because you are still spinning up when the other mech fires and twists away. as a pure dps gun you cant fire it long enough to matter. the face time investment is too long for the damage. and you cant use it for those split second of opportunity shots. mechanically its right it just needs some numbers tweaked.

Welll.....would you bring a semi manportable Gatling minigun to a knife fight ?
No?
Well there is your answer. RACs are longrange rapidfire support weapons and absolutely unsutable for brawling and this is fine as it is.
Use Heavy MGs and SRMs for brawling.

Regarding the changes I would like the gauge to be 30% longer and the spin up time reduced by 25-30%.

When testing I was unable too hit a peaking Kingkrab cause I was either jammed or still spinnig up while the guy peppered me with his LB-X.
And honestly I would prefere a LBX AC5 over the RAC5 atm.

Edited by The Basilisk, 29 June 2017 - 11:54 PM.

[50 50]

I found the RAC worked quite nicely when combined with a standard AC.
Had the option to single tap to snipe with the AC, but then when the situation called for it you can hold the trigger and let lose.
Should it jam then the standard AC kept on giving until the jam cleared and off you went again.

Personally I feel it's more of a brawling/suppressing weapon and it was a lot of fun to use.

[DerMaulwurf]

I don't mind if the sustained dps of RACs is kinda low. As long as the burst dps is high enough to make it worth it.

The quoted calculations assume full facetime for the AC/2, which is a significant problem and must be rewarded. IF RACs have better burst and sustained damage, that's just silly.

[Orkimedes]

Tangentially related to the proper functioning of rotary autocannons:

Currently, the following situation exists.
Firing 2 RAC2: no ghost heat
Firing 2 rac5: no ghost heat
Firing 1x RAC2 + 1x RAC5: massive ghost heat.

Putting aside the issue of ghost heat on RACs in the first place aside, that's just dumb.

[WhyHelloDer]

Just want to point out @The6thMessenger that in your proposed changes you don't specify cooldown time. If the cooldown period is equivalent to the Jam period then there is zero point to managing the Jam Bar. So to incentivize skillful play it needs to be at least 2 seconds lower, in my opinion.


EDIT: Also, from what I can currently tell Ballistics Cooldown Quirks and Skills currently do not affect RACs in anyway, thus furthering the current gap in dps between RACs and ACs+UACs. Honestly Cooldown effects should increase cooling speed on RACs, not just two nodes on the Firepower tree giving a measly 5%.

Edited by WhyHelloDer, 30 June 2017 - 12:23 AM.

[Tank]

With all of the damage scattering I think all it needs is more +20% to 50% fire rate - this would also make weapon more fun. I would rather have recoil that lifts the barrels rather those jam gauges, we need something new - this is a dedicated sustained weapon.

[Appuagab]

I suggest to remove the spin-up time and replace it with SLOW decrease of cooldown/volley duration as the RAC fires. So you can use it as a regular AC if you aren't in good position to brawl and choose to carefully poke your enemy.

[Navid A1]

The projectile speeds are unbelievably slow.

i'd say 2200 m/s for RAC2 and 1800 m/s for RAC5

after all, each shell of a RAC2 does 0.5 damage and each one for RAC5 does 1.2 damage.

those are very small projectiles and should go really really fast

[ForceUser]

Currently the jam clear time and the cooldown for the bar is the same. This means there is zero point to managing the jam bar. Just hold down till jammed and cool down.

Decreasing the cooldown of the bar to 7.5sec or 5sec but keeping Jam clear time to 10 sec will have a large impact on dps over time while not impacting the already impressive burst DPS and heavily encourages management of the Jam bar.

A single change that will have a sizable positive impact on the weapon.

[WhyHelloDer]

ForceUser, on 30 June 2017 - 01:25 AM, said:

Currently the jam clear time and the cooldown for the bar is the same. This means there is zero point to managing the jam bar. Just hold down till jammed and cool down.

Decreasing the cooldown of the bar to 7.5sec or 5sec but keeping Jam clear time to 10 sec will have a large impact on dps over time while not impacting the already impressive burst DPS and heavily encourages management of the Jam bar.

A single change that will have a sizable positive impact on the weapon.

Exactly what I've been saying. However, I dont even think that would be enough. If for example the cooldown was brought down to 5 seconds youd still only be operating inside a 10 second window with 3.95 seconds of fire time. So actual dps would be stated multiplied by .395, soooo effective sustained dps for the RAC/2 at 1.58 and RAC/5 at 3.44. Thats still below the normal AC/2 and only slightly above the AC/5. Not good enough.

Edited by WhyHelloDer, 30 June 2017 - 01:32 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

WhyHelloDer, on 30 June 2017 - 12:19 AM, said:

Just want to point out @The6thMessenger that in your proposed changes you don't specify cooldown time. If the cooldown period is equivalent to the Jam period then there is zero point to managing the Jam Bar. So to incentivize skillful play it needs to be at least 2 seconds lower, in my opinion.

You mean, "spin down"?