46 replies to this topic

[Insanity09]

I find it interesting that, pre-skill tree, radar deprivation was basically considered a must have module. The great majority of mechs carried it. To be sure, some folks did not carry it (many ECM mechs, for example), but it seemed to be a given that most wanted it, unless there was a dire need for something else.

Now, post ST, even though you get a number of other benefits along with radar dep (sensor range, TIG, retain, some decay), people are suddenly questioning its value. 16 points will get you 100% RD, which is actually better than it was pre-ST, and that is less than 20% of your total skill points.

Consider seismic, another module that was a go-to for many, pre-ST. If you get full RD, it only takes 3 more points to get 200m seismic, for a total of 19 points (12 points to get full seismic if you, for some reason, completely avoid all RD nodes)

I'm not sure why, but now the sensor tree is viewed with considerable distaste by many. An odd turnaround.
I think it has its value and uses, I spec into it on many of my mechs, though by no means all.


Edit for typos and clarity.

Edited by Insanity09, 06 July 2017 - 09:33 AM.

[HIGH LORD KIT FAWKS THE WATCHFUL]

All things considered, I'd not dare walk into the field without radar dep. I primary urbanmech, and with all of my heavily ballistic centric builds speed is a limiting factor. It's going to be a pure requirement that I carry seismic and radar dep into the field.

The best armor you can ever have is to simply not get shot. Any advantage you can carry into the fight to make you more aware of the battlefield is one more force multiplier in your favor. I may only dip into FirePower and fully invest into Survival and Sensors, as honestly...My AC20 is plenty painful.

[GenJack]

THE GOD KING URBIE LORD OF MECHS, on 06 July 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

All things considered, I'd not dare walk into the field without radar dep. I primary urbanmech, and with all of my heavily ballistic centric builds speed is a limiting factor. It's going to be a pure requirement that I carry seismic and radar dep into the field.

The best armor you can ever have is to simply not get shot. Any advantage you can carry into the fight to make you more aware of the battlefield is one more force multiplier in your favor. I may only dip into FirePower and fully invest into Survival and Sensors, as honestly...My AC20 is plenty painful.

See he speaks the truth!

[Kaethir]

I generally spec out RD 100% as my first major skill investment in a new mech. after I get it mostly skilled out, i sometimes pull that back a bit in order to put points elsewhere... but I like being able to dodge missiles even in a 48.6 KPH 100 ton mech.

[Old dirty B]

THE GOD KING URBIE LORD OF MECHS, on 06 July 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

... The best armor you can ever have is to simply not get shot. Any advantage you can carry into the fight to make you more aware of the battlefield is one more force multiplier in your favor. ...

this

[AzureRathalos]

And so, the Lord of LRMs looked down upon those who rejected the power of Derp. Though the peasants ran in fear, they could not escape his watchful gaze.

He smiled and spoke:
"Warning Incoming Missile."

[HIGH LORD KIT FAWKS THE WATCHFUL]

As an off topic, did I accidentally a cult? I just noticed your signature GenJack.

Back on topic. Given the choice between hitting you harder once or twice versus knowing *when* to strike is what separates good players from better players.

Invest in sensors, I guarantee you that of the few times you will lose a trade with a opponent you will gain far more in times you struck them without ever giving the enemy a chance to strike back.

Radar deprivation is armor, just by a different name.

[Atomic Hamster]

Well have been experimenting with different levels of derp (always used to go for 100%) and maybe coincidentally have also had a run of terrible matches recently. Not sure if the lack of derp has anything to do with that, or if it's down to playing at different times (being on holiday), some strange random lag spikes I've been getting or if I'm just getting worse!

Now don't think I want to go without derp entirely, but would be really interesting if someone knows what the practical difference is between 60%, 80% and 100% - I know 100% means you get off radar instantly, but not sure how long (in seconds) you stay on with 80% and 60%.

Edited by Atomic Hamster, 06 July 2017 - 01:11 PM.

[HIGH LORD KIT FAWKS THE WATCHFUL]

The average time you remain on radar after line of sight is lost divided up into 20% segment will give you the answer you need. I cannot get that information for you at this time as I am currently out to sea and have limited bandwidth.

Try not to pair it down into just the math of the equation though, account for the one truly important factor:

Attention span.

Given the choice between following the hard to track mech vs the sudden assault standing in your face, most if not all players are going to pay attention to the more obvious target. As an UM, I am a tough nut to crack (STD engines make this even more acute) but the best chances I have to survive the round is to not be made a target to begin with. If I have to be noticed, it should be when I have the force of a firing line beside me and even then it should be for as short a time as I can manage. Full deprivation and seismic mean I can do that.

[jss78]

Insanity09, on 06 July 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

I find it interesting that, pre-skill tree, radar deprivation was basically considered a must have module. The great majority of mechs carried it. To be sure, some folks did not carry it (many ECM mechs, for example), but it seemed to be a given that most wanted it, unless there was a dire need for something else.

Now, post ST, even though you get a number of other benefits along with radar dep (sensor range, TIG, retain, some decay), people are suddenly questioning its value. 16 points will get you 100% RD, which is actually better than it was pre-ST, and that is less than 20% of your total skill points.

Consider seismic, another module that was a go-to for many, pre-ST. If you get full RD, it only takes 3 more points to get 200m seismic, for a total of 19 points (12 points to get full seismic if you, for some reason, completely avoid all RD nodes)

I'm not sure why, but now the sensor tree is viewed with considerable distaste by many. An odd turnaround.
I think it has its value and uses, I spec into it on many of my mechs, though by no means all.

Edit for typos and clarity.

There's a difference to the old system though -- back then, you had those module slots where you HAD to one of the then existing NON-WEAPON modules. And the bulk of those modules were very bad. So it was Radar Deprivation and/or Seismic, optionally Advanced Zoom for some builds or Radar Decay for lurm boats.

Now things are different. We can invest heavily in the weapon tree, in effect getting cooldown, range, speed, duration, ammo, ..., modules for weapons. And then we have the mobilty and survivability trees which give universally useful things not covered at all in the old module system.

Personally though, I still tend to take full Radar Derp and Full Seismic. In a lot of the other trees I don't feel I get quite the same return. I think this is playstyle dependent for sure though.

[Winnie The Pew]

Those of you that don't take full derp must know much more than I. without it, I seem to perish in flames. every new mech I get, I level up radar derp first.. before movement, ops or anything. Granted I am only tier 3 but still, seems to help with my gameplay a LOT. I tend to pilot lights.
I never seem to see any real effect from taking the weapons tree... not noticeable anyway.

[Rogue Jedi]

I also play Light Mechs a lot and they, in my experiance, need Radar Deprivation the least, its main use is evading LRMs, in a Light it is realy easy to break a lock and put something between you and the missiles, or just move evasively and evade the missiles on a Light I just tend to get TIG and maybe target retention from sensors add in maybe the ECM nodes if it is an ECM Mech.

After playing for almost 5 years I have little problem evading LRMs or breaking locks without RD or ECM especialy on fast Mechs like most Lights.

Those are my reasons, if you disagree that is great, other people who have been playing as long as I have do, diferant people have diferant play styles so diferant stratagies work diferantly for diferant people.

[Old dirty B]

As a locust/light pilot always take full radar derp. Not because i need it to avoid lrm's, thats of least concern - in a locust you can do that blindfolded and in reverse...

I use the radar derp to keep my radar footprint and thus exposure as low as possible, even on a mech with ecm this is usefull at close range. You dont want everybody already looking in your direction when you come around the corner...

Lastly, it also gives information if you have been spotted / targetted when flanking or behind enemy lines. 60% RD means that other 40% you are on the radar AND you dont get info wheteither you have been targetted. For a fragile light without direct support, this information is of the highest value.

[Atomic Hamster]

THE GOD KING URBIE LORD OF MECHS, on 06 July 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

The average time you remain on radar after line of sight is lost divided up into 20% segment will give you the answer you need. I cannot get that information for you at this time as I am currently out to sea and have limited bandwidth.

Try not to pair it down into just the math of the equation though, account for the one truly important factor:

Attention span.

Given the choice between following the hard to track mech vs the sudden assault standing in your face, most if not all players are going to pay attention to the more obvious target. As an UM, I am a tough nut to crack (STD engines make this even more acute) but the best chances I have to survive the round is to not be made a target to begin with. If I have to be noticed, it should be when I have the force of a firing line beside me and even then it should be for as short a time as I can manage. Full deprivation and seismic mean I can do that.

Well let's assume that without any derp it takes 5 seconds to lose radar detection after you break LOS. 60% derp would cut that to 2 seconds and 80% to 1 second. Doesn't seem a huge difference from full derp, if the 5 second assumption is roughly correct.

Edited by Atomic Hamster, 07 July 2017 - 03:43 PM.

[HIGH LORD KIT FAWKS THE WATCHFUL]

If you are correct in your assumption that it only takes 1 second at 80%, and you feel comfortable at that timing I would say then that 80% is right for you. I want the full advantage of seismic, and dep. That maximizes total force multipliers in my favor.

I would also post up two UAV, even though I do not penetrate deep into enemy lines. This allows me to post a UAV for my team to stop any sort of flanking from my side.

The unique value of this game is that we all have the ability to play according to a varying degree of styles, if you are in it to min/max values that are important to you then you have full capability to do so. Try working from one point invested and up, see where the line is drawn for you, and then use it to the best of your ability.

[R E S P E K]

0157H7, on 07 July 2017 - 06:47 AM, said:

Those of you that don't take full derp must know much more than I. without it, I seem to perish in flames. every new mech I get, I level up radar derp first..

If you poll all the "apex predators" (the top pilots) in this game you will find that most avoid sensor tree completely.

What do they know that others dont? They know how to stick to cover.

[HIGH LORD KIT FAWKS THE WATCHFUL]

There lies the difference.

The "apex predators" fight in a completely different way, amongst and against other "apex predators".

Puglandia I feel...might be a different story.

[VonBruinwald]

R E S P E K, on 10 July 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

If you poll all the "apex predators" (the top pilots) in this game you will find that most avoid sensor tree completely.

The "apex predator" is a primitive beast of maxium meta. He stalks a battlefield where the freedom of builds is outlawed and the thrill of the hunt comes after the kill, where a STD60 Urbie is piloted ironically and where salt rains from the sky when an over-performing chassis is nerfed. The apex predator is beast to be feared but a beast nethertheless.

[General Solo]

For non apex types, its ok to good depending on weather you have 30 or 300 missiles headed your way.
I use it, when I've skilled everything but don't have enough points to make the weapon/armour skill trees worthwile.
Like say on a pop tart, in soft cover on polar during lermagedon.

But I'm a casual, there are probably better skill templates for dat.
If so please tell me so I can borrow/steal them.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 11 July 2017 - 08:48 AM.

[SPencil]

Radar dep is 100% useless; so is AMS, takes up precious ammunition / weapons space

I'm not biased, I swear

edit: thinking back on it, LRM support should pipe up on this semi-seriously Assuming any mech in any role, there can be found some good reasons to run radar deprivation, especially without AMS. The extra information of when one is acquired as a target is invaluable, it severely reduces the distance enemy LRM carriers can expect consistent impact (ignoring cover and mobility), and the 'upgraded' sensors enforced with even light radar deprivation is a subtle edge versus opponents that have no sensor upgrades at all.

At the base level though, I think the one question someone needs to ask themselves while considering radar dep. is "how worried am I about enemy LRM support?"

Edited by SPencil, 13 July 2017 - 03:45 PM.