65 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

So Ive been testing out the Potatory Autocannon 5 to try and figure out why its such an underperforming weapon.

Essentially the weapon spends 1 second spooling up, fires for 4 seconds, and then your jam bar turns red and the PAC5 has a chance of jamming every time it fires an additional shot while its red.

For some dumb reason spooling up increases the jam bar (why PGI the guns not firing). And then it seems to take 10 seconds for a red jam bar to completely go back down to 0.

So if you fire an PAC5 responsibly, with no jam chance, you get 1 second spool up and 4 seconds of firing. And then 10 seconds of waiting for the jam bar to go back down to 0.

A 9.6 dps x 4 seconds of firing = 38.4 damage divided by 15 seconds (1 spool up, 4 seconds firing, and 10 seconds to clear the jam bar) that comes out to a pathetic 2.56 dps. Thats less dps than an AC5.

So basically the PAC5 is only worth it if you fire it well into the red and risk it jamming. If you stop firing short of that youll do less dps than an AC5. There is absolutely no point in trying to fire it responsibly and manage the jam bar, which is sad...


So how can we make the PAC better? heres two ideas:

1) reduce spool time and/or make spooling up not increase the jam bar. Although I suspect the reason why spooling up increases the jam bar is to prevent you from prespooling the weapon. But would prespooling really be that overpowered? Apparently PGI thinks so... but im not so sure.

2) increase the duration the weapon can fire without jamming, but then increase the jam rate to compensate (or make it automatically jam at the end of the bar). So youd be able to fire the weapon longer with no chance of jamming, but if it does go into the red then youll have a higher chance of jamming. that would reward you more for managing the jam bar which is how it should work.

Edited by Khobai, 29 June 2017 - 06:55 PM.

[FupDup]

The rate at which the jam bar dissipates needs to be a lot faster, and as compensation they can reduce the threshold or something. Or just make the gun instantly jam if you reach the end of the bar, which is what everyone expected it to do.

Edited by FupDup, 29 June 2017 - 06:43 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The rate at which the jam bar dissipates needs to be a lot faster

Maybe. It depends if you want the PACs to be super bursty dps or more consistent dps weapons.

The long dissipation time makes it a super bursty dps weapon. Which I kindve like because it differentiates it from other weapons.

Quote

Or just make the gun instantly jam if you reach the end of the bar, which is what everyone expected it to do.

Yes.

But if it automatically jams at the end of the bar, then the amount of time the PAC5 can fire before jamming would have to be increased to the point where it does more DPS than an AC5/UAC5.

So youd have to increase the jam bar duration from 5 seconds to like 10 seconds. With a 10 second jam bar youd have 1 second of spooling up, 9 seconds of firing, and 10 seconds of jam bar dissipation. That comes out to about 4.3 dps. 4-5 dps is around where I feel the PAC5 should be, so thatd be a good start.

Automatic jamming at the end of the bar would also be sufficient punishment to make you actually watch and manage the jam bar and not just hold down fire.

Edited by Khobai, 29 June 2017 - 06:58 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 29 June 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

Maybe. It depends if you want the PACs to be super bursty dps or more consistent dps weapons.

The long dissipation time makes it a super burst weapon. Which I kindve like.

I think that the bursty role would be more fitting for Ultra ACs that have super high jam rates and much higher damage per each bullet.

Khobai, on 29 June 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

Yes.

But if it automatically jams at the end of the bar, then the duration the PAC5 fires before jamming would have to be increased to the point where it does more DPS than an AC5/UAC5.

So youd have to increase the jam bar duration from 5 seconds to like 8-10 seconds.

Automatic jamming at the end of the bar would also be sufficient punishment to make you actually watch and manage the jam bar and not just hold down fire.

The faster dissipation I asked for would help increase the average/consistent DPS of the weapon...

Edited by FupDup, 29 June 2017 - 06:56 PM.

[Khobai]

I think id be fine with the length of time you can fire the PAC being increasing from 5 seconds to 10 seconds and the PAC automatically jamming when it reaches the end of the bar.

Quote

I think that the bursty role would be more fitting for Ultra ACs that have super high jam rates and much higher damage per each bullet.

I feel the opposite. I think UACs should be more consistent while PACs should be more bursty.

In tabletop UACs almost never jam while PACs are quite prone to jamming. I think making UACs more consistent and PACs more bursty is more faithful to tabletop. UACs have always jammed way too much in MWO. I personally think UAC jam chance should be completely removed and UACs should be reworked around not jamming at all. We could also get rid of the stupid UAC burst system that makes clan UACs unusable.

So itd be something like:
AC5 would do 3 dps but 5 damage per shot. And have the best range and velocity and lowest heat.
UAC5 would do ~4 dps but only do 2.5-3 damage per shot. And have medium range/velocity. no jam chance.
PAC5 would do ~5 dps but only 1.2 damage per shot. And have the worst range/velocity and highest heat. would still spool up and have jam bar.

Edited by Khobai, 29 June 2017 - 07:11 PM.

[Rusharn]

I think the RAC5's are fine where they are. I recently started using them and without the skill nodes they have issues, but once you get both of the jam chance reduction nodes, they work just fine for suppression, serious splash damage, and if someone is silly enough to hold still are very lethal. The spool up needs to increase the jam bar, because if it didn't, then people would create macros to keep the Racs spun up ready to fire without actually firing.

[The6thMessenger]

I already did the math, with available source material:

https://mwomercs.com...-time-with-rac/

We also have the API to get the data from. All it takes is for you to know which stats is which.

   "name": "RotaryAutoCannon5",
  "category": "weapon",
  "factions": {
   "Clan": false,
   "InnerSphere": true
  },
  "stats": {
   "Health": 15,
   "slots": 6,
   "type": "Ballistic",
   "projectileclass": "bullet",
   "numFiring": 1,
   "damage": 1.5,
   "heatdamage": 0,
   "heatpenalty": 6,
   "heatPenaltyID": 11,
   "minheatpenaltylevel": 3,
   "impulse": 0.04,
   "heat": 4,
   "cooldown": 0,
   "ammoType": "RotaryAC5Ammo",
   "ammoPerShot": 1,
   "tons": 10,
   "duration": -1,
   "lifetime": 10,
   "speed": 1025,
   "volleydelay": 0,
   "rof": 7.275,
   "spread": 0.23,
   "gravity": "0,0,-9.8",
   "maxDepth": 10,
   "rampUpTime": 1,
   "rampDownTime": 2,
   "jamRampUpTime": 6,
   "jamRampDownTime": 9.5,
   "RampDownDelay": 0.3,
   "JammingChance": 0.037,
   "JammedTime": 10
  },

"rof" = 7.275 - it's the rate of fire duh, in shots/seconds.
"rampUpTime" = 1 - It's the spinup time.
"jamRampUpTime" = 6 - It's the bar you are going to fill. Subtract the "rampUpTime" then we get a net of 5.
"jamRampDownTime" = 9.5 - it's how fast the bar dissipates from full to empty.
"JammingChance" = 0.037 - it's the chance of jamming when on redline. It can be assumed to be 3.7% therefore it can be assumed that it can fire 27. shots on average over the redline without jamming.
"JammedTime" = 10 - This is the Jam duration where your weapon cannot fire at all.

That means we can assume that, it has 5s of shooting, and with 7.275 that means there's 36 shots before redline, and would have done 54 damage every 1s + 5s + 9.5s, that means shooting the RAC5 responsibly produces 3.4839 DPS.

However if we pushed the weapon above redline, it will jam on average after 63 shots, or 94.5 damage, or have fired for an average of 8.66 seconds + 10s of jammed time + 1s of spinup time. It effectively does 4.8068 EDPS.

Khobai, on 29 June 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

But if it automatically jams at the end of the bar, then the amount of time the PAC5 can fire before jamming would have to be increased to the point where it does more DPS than an AC5/UAC5.

Have it fire for fixed 5s + 0.75s spool up time, and 4.5s Jam Duration/Dissipation, and with 10.9125 DPS, it does 5.743 EDPS

Done. No it wouldn't be magazine based, because it would be disruptive if we cannot tactically reload, it's best that the ammo pool regenerates, you know like that archetypal overheating MG many other FPS already perfected?

Khobai, on 29 June 2017 - 07:02 PM, said:

I feel the opposite. I think UACs should be more consistent while PACs should be more bursty.

No, it s shouldn't.

The way UAC and RAC is made are for two different roles. The RAC is made for long suppressive bursts, UAC is for the burst fire peekaboos. Compare the UACs with their erratic fire durations, the 5s of ensured damage work better for sustained DPS.

This is FPS, not TT.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 06 January 2018 - 03:43 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Spool-up filling the jam bar is stupid, plain and simple. It needs to be changed as soon as PGI can get around to it.

If PGI did that change alongside making the jam bar being full automatically jam the gun but have a much faster decay timer then I think RACs would be in a very good place, at least from a usability standpoint.

[NRP]

Had to laugh at the thread title. Does anyone even use these? Hardly ever see them in game.

[Mole]

Look man. You can tell me the RAC sucks all you want but all I know is the RAC/5 saved my Uziel, King Crab, and Mauler from the scrap heap when no other autocannon could and an RAC/5 RAC/2 combo did the same for my Dragon. Replacing the old AC/10 on my Bushwhacker with an RAC/5 has made it more combat effective as well. Not every 'mech is built for them. They sucked balls on my Annihilator for example. But there are some chassis that can make them shine.

Edited by Mole, 06 January 2018 - 03:45 PM.

[Bad Pun]

What keeps me from using RACs is the spoolup before firing and the "clatter-clunk" noise they make. It's like there's a drawbridge being raised inside my mechs!

Get rid of those and I'd give them another chance.

[Mcgral18]

Rusharn, on 06 January 2018 - 03:09 PM, said:

I think the RAC5's are fine where they are. I recently started using them and without the skill nodes they have issues, but once you get both of the jam chance reduction nodes, they work just fine for suppression, serious splash damage, and if someone is silly enough to hold still are very lethal. The spool up needs to increase the jam bar, because if it didn't, then people would create macros to keep the Racs spun up ready to fire without actually firing.

You know, if they removed the charge up, it would solve that particular issue

They don't have spool times in modern times, they don't have spool times in the year 3000
It's a video game and movie trope



Personally, I'm fine outright ignoring the weapon, it sits with many of the other worthless options in MWO thanks to poor balance practices

[Kaeb Odellas]

I wouldn't mind seeing something like the Halo Warthog's mounted gun, where it starts firing immediately but takes a second to get up to full speed

[Sigmar Sich]

Only thing i can say about RACs, they feel SOOOO good. Especially on Urbies.


On serious note, i found them not very effective as main caliber (for example Bushie build around it), but a very good companion caliber as in Zeus with RAC/5 and MRM40. One side does the fear, other side does the damage.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 29 June 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

So if you fire an PAC5 responsibly, with no jam chance, you get 1 second spool up and 4 seconds of firing. And then 10 seconds of waiting for the jam bar to go back down to 0.

A 9.6 dps x 4 seconds of firing = 38.4 damage divided by 15 seconds (1 spool up, 4 seconds firing, and 10 seconds to clear the jam bar) that comes out to a pathetic 2.56 dps. Thats less dps than an AC5.

TBF, dual RAC5s use up a lot of heat so one can wait out the jam while cooling off. Damage of RAC5 is more frontloaded compared to AC5.

Khobai, on 29 June 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

For some dumb reason spooling up increases the jam bar (why PGI the guns not firing). And then it seems to take 10 seconds for a red jam bar to completely go back down to 0.

That definitely needs to be fixed, yes.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 January 2018 - 10:20 AM.

[nehebkau]

Sigmar Sich, on 07 January 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

Only thing i can say about RACs, they feel SOOOO good. Especially on Urbies.

Ya, I like the feel of them and am willing to accept their performance (or lack thereof) for the visceral joy of firing them.

[MechaBattler]

What if they replaced jam with spread? What if it started better than it is now and progressed to worse when held for too long. We could keep the bar mechanic as measuring worsening spread.

[The6thMessenger]

Sigmar Sich, on 07 January 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

Only thing i can say about RACs, they feel SOOOO good. Especially on Urbies.


On serious note, i found them not very effective as main caliber (for example Bushie build around it), but a very good companion caliber as in Zeus with RAC/5 and MRM40. One side does the fear, other side does the damage.

What intro is that?

[Athom83]

Sigmar Sich, on 07 January 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

On serious note, i found them not very effective as main caliber (for example Bushie build around it), but a very good companion caliber as in Zeus with RAC/5 and MRM40. One side does the fear, other side does the damage.

Got same build with 2 more RL15s on an Orion V.

[FupDup]

The6thMessenger, on 07 January 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

What intro is that?

Dawn of War.