16 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

Nothing here is final, I'm happy to edit these numbers just post a comparison between two weapons you feel are not balanced against each other..

Balance Considerations:
1. Lore damage, lore heat, lore range (+- 50 meters)
2. Can change only cooldown and duration
3. Assumes Double Heat Sinks dissipation will also be changed to 2 since most weapons are hotter in lore.
4. Longer range is achieved with more power >> higher component temperatures>>less power efficiency
5. Shorter duration is achieved with more power >> higher component temperatures>>less power efficiency
6. Higher DPS is achieved by giving the weapon less time to cool down between shots>>higher average operating temperatures for weapon components >>less power efficiency
7. Higher damage is achieved with greater energy expended >> higher component temperatures>>less power efficiency
8. Higher tonnage >> more capable, better components >> better power efficiency
9. More slots >> greater area to spread heat >> better power efficiency


Small Class

IS Small Laser: D/H: 3.0 DPS: 1.2
Range: 100m Damage: 3 Heat: 1 Duration: 0.5s Cooldown: 2.0s

IS Small Pulse Laser: D/H: 1.5 DPS: 2.0
Range: 100m Damage: 3 Heat: 2 Duration: 0.25s Cooldown: 1.25s

IS ER-Small Laser: D/H: 1.5 DPS: 1.5
Range: 200m Damage: 3 Heat: 2 Duration: 0.5s Cooldown: 1.5s

Clan Heavy Small Laser: D/H: 2.0 DPS: 1.41
Range: 100m Damage: 6 Heat: 3 Duration: 1.0s Cooldown: 3.25s

Clan Small Pulse Laser: D/H: 1.5 DPS: 1.88
Range: 200m Damage: 3 Heat: 2 Duration: 0.35s Cooldown: 1.25s

Clan ER-Small Laser: D/H: 2.5 DPS: 1.25
Range: 200m Damage: 5 Heat: 2 Duration: 1.25s Cooldown: 2.75s

Medium Class

IS Medium Laser: D/H: 1.67 DPS: 1.52
Range: 300m Damage: 5 Heat: 3 Duration: 0.8s Cooldown: 2.5s

IS Medium Pulse Laser: D/H: 1.5 DPS: 2.18
Range: 235m Damage: 6 Heat: 4 Duration: 0.5s Cooldown: 2.25s

IS ER-Medium Laser: D/H: 1.0 DPS: 1.79
Range: 425m Damage: 5 Heat: 5 Duration: 0.8s Cooldown: 2.0s

Clan Heavy Medium Laser: D/H: 1.43 DPS: 1.43
Range: 300m Damage: 10 Heat: 7 Duration: 1.3s Cooldown: 5.7s

Clan Medium Pulse Laser: D/H: 1.75 DPS: 1.75
Range: 350m Damage: 7 Heat: 4 Duration: 0.7s Cooldown: 3.3s

Clan ER-Medium Laser: D/H: 1.4 DPS: 1.33
Range: 450m Damage: 7 Heat: 5 Duration: 1.25s Cooldown: 4.0s

Large Class

IS Large Laser: D/H: 1.0 DPS: 2.86
Range: 500m Damage: 8 Heat: 8 Duration: 0.8s Cooldown: 2.0s

IS Large Pulse Laser: D/H: 0.9 DPS: 4.0
Range: 350m Damage: 9 Heat: 10 Duration: 0.5s Cooldown: 1.75s

IS ER-Large Laser: D/H: 0.67 DPS: 2.96
Range: 750m Damage: 8 Heat: 12 Duration: 0.7s Cooldown: 2.0s

Clan Heavy Large Laser: D/H: 0.89 DPS: 2.76
Range: 475m Damage: 16 Heat: 18 Duration: 1.5s Cooldown: 4.3s

Clan Large Pulse Laser: D/H: 1.0 DPS: 3.03
Range: 550m Damage: 10 Heat: 10 Duration: 0.7s Cooldown: 2.6s

Clan ER-Large Laser: D/H: 0.83 DPS: 2.5
Range: 770m Damage: 10 Heat: 12 Duration: 1.3s Cooldown: 2.7s

[ShoeKush]

Post this in the PTS section. That is where they asked us to post this type of stuff.

You could make your thread more thread-like if you'd offer some extra information on these changes, and why you support them.

[Nightbird]

Bump

[Paigan]

Sorry, but this is a waste of time.

You devised dozens of values that every reader would have to carefully work through and weigh against each other.
For example:
Did you make proper DpS, DpH, DpTonnage ,HpS, etc. analysis? How are those figures for your values and what is the rationale behind EVERY SINGLE ONE of them (e.g. if the ERLL turns out to have a lot of dps, why should it have that?)
And no, I won't do that myself. Such things take a LOT of time and if you want to present such an enormous change, you have to work up these things for the reader, not the other way around.

Also:
Did you consider IS <-> Clan balance?
Did you consider Laser <-> PPC balance?
Did you consider Laser <-> ammo-weapon balance?
Did you consider short range <-> long rang balance?
Did you consider many hardpoints vs few hardpoints balance?
Did you consider boating? What about ghost heat?

I play games for some ... uhm .. years now. I also develop software for some years now.
And ALWAYS I see some quarter informed (not even half informed) people who spontaneously spew out some ideas and think those brain farts are more viable than the results of several months of analysing and testing by those who do that every day (and not seldomly all day).

Those systems are INCREDIBLY complex. MUCH more than you think they are on first glance.

Please don't bother us with a ton of spontaneously devised values, especially without in-depth rationales and analysis.

Edited by Paigan, 30 June 2017 - 05:25 AM.

[Nightbird]

I appreciate your feedback Paigan. While detailed analysis is important, a crowded presentation is counter productive. If you would like to participate in the thread, just point out two weapons that don't work using your approach.

[Karl Streiger]

men i would love the day when somebody would inverse the duration to the size (shorter duration for bigger lasers)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 30 June 2017 - 05:57 AM.

[Nightbird]

While not inversing the duration, I do see the IS technology as being limited by not being able to produce a long burning, efficient beam. They get by with dumping a ton of power into a beam tech originally intended for a much shorter range, resulting in a long ranged short duration beam, but a hot mess as they call it.

[ShoeKush]

Paigan, on 30 June 2017 - 05:24 AM, said:

Sorry, but this is a waste of time.

You devised dozens of values that every reader would have to carefully work through and weigh against each other.
For example:
Did you make proper DpS, DpH, DpTonnage ,HpS, etc. analysis? How are those figures for your values and what is the rationale behind EVERY SINGLE ONE of them (e.g. if the ERLL turns out to have a lot of dps, why should it have that?)
And no, I won't do that myself. Such things take a LOT of time and if you want to present such an enormous change, you have to work up these things for the reader, not the other way around.

Also:
Did you consider IS <-> Clan balance?
Did you consider Laser <-> PPC balance?
Did you consider Laser <-> ammo-weapon balance?
Did you consider short range <-> long rang balance?
Did you consider many hardpoints vs few hardpoints balance?
Did you consider boating? What about ghost heat?

I play games for some ... uhm .. years now. I also develop software for some years now.
And ALWAYS I see some quarter informed (not even half informed) people who spontaneously spew out some ideas and think those brain farts are more viable than the results of several months of analysing and testing by those who do that every day (and not seldomly all day).

Those systems are INCREDIBLY complex. MUCH more than you think they are on first glance.

What he says is true. PGI has been doing a tightrope act with spinning plates in order to have at least a few mechs to drive that aren't total garbage and can compete with each other. Your idea just blows the whole game up, and without the math this thread then becomes as pointless as any "Hay guys we need Mech X" thread.

[Nightbird]

Math here is not right or wrong, you must weigh the math with your opinions, so I'm sparing people from digging up hidden opinions and posted them straight up refreshing isn't it?

[ShoeKush]

NlGHTBlRD, on 30 June 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

Math here is not right or wrong, you must weigh the math with your opinions, so I'm sparing people from digging up hidden opinions and posted them straight up refreshing isn't it?

No it isn't. The last time I was on these forums I had a hell of a time trying to convince some really salty vets that they don't know how to design a video game, and if they did, they'd be employed as a video game designer and not just some dude with a bankroll of unlimited space robots.

So no. I like the fact that you wrote numbers, but they're the wrong numbers for this game.

[Nightbird]

Post a link to your numbers, I'll review them.

[Tordin]

I agree on some of those stats. But the rule in this game is clan weapons have longer range, less tonnage, longer duration, more heat, faster cooldown? more dmg etc, balance around that.

Somone help, suggest balances for the laser to Chris. We have a shaky foundation now, with not so useful small lasers (especially clan small pulse) on both tech sides and heavy lasers struggling to be the close combat heavy hitters they are supposed to be. Time to use the stats we have seen and make the foundation solid and useful.

Edited by Tordin, 30 June 2017 - 07:58 AM.

[Nightbird]

Yep, trying to do what I can, which admittedly not that much. Giving lasers roles, personalities, history, strengths, and weaknesses, instead of IS lasers simply being nerfed versions of clan lasers that we have now.

[Khobai]

they need to fix small lasers for starters

[Nightbird]

Is the small laser stats here better than live?

[Nightbird]

bump cuz yes, we need another laser stats thread

[Nightbird]

lore stats, weapons with personalities